Real world Hi-Pressure Aeroponics

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Bob Smith

Well-Known Member
Pet, even the Atomix (the most expensive machine per sqft. ever developed for weed growing, to my knowledge) used a........fuck, now the name escapes me, but the NFT guys over in the UK use them..........um...........fuck, Atomizer will know - the root mat/capillary action things that you put on the floor of NFT channels.

BTW Atomizer, saw this and thought of your spinning wheel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5eE73TfuoE
 
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Bob Smith

Well-Known Member
Fucking sucks that the tree farmer thread is closed, lots of good talking points in there.

So, I'm curious what people's thoughts are on air assisted vs. traditional HPA.

Why do people seem to think that air-assisted is "better"? I'm confused by that - as far as I can tell, there's nothing that air-assisted can do that you can't do with HPA cheaper, more efficiently, and simpler.

Is this just a case of people thinking that something more expensive and complicated is better, or are there advantages that I'm missing?

Just as a start, perhaps we could start to list the pros and cons of each (really just HPA, as by definition a "PRO" for HPA will be a "CON" for AA, and vice versa, as it's a comparison)?

HPA:

PROS:
Cheaper initial setup, and much easier to expand (basically $1K worth of air compressor for every nozzle, whereas a 50 gallon accumulator could power 100s of nozzles)
Less power consumption (pump runs for seconds/hour at 1.5amps vs. air compressor running for a minute or two per hour at 12 amps)
Nozzle price allows for full coverage of any size/shape container
Easy to build in redundancies
Parts easy to source
Simpler setup without as much dialing in (as opposed to dialing in air pressure/flow and liquid pressure/flow together, yikes)

CONS:
Less flexibility
Without being well setup, droplet size can vary greatly from the start to finish of misting cycle
If not silenced, pump is louder than a "silent" air compressor
Due to crazy nozzle cost, hard to get as good a coverage on containers (could install 40 misting nozzles for the price of one air-assisted).

Would love others to add to this as they see fit - perhaps just keep on "quoting" it and adding so that we have a running list?
 
PetFlora

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
I said the screen was a good compromise. Ideally, you don't want roots hitting the bottom of anything. Impossible to do with anything other than short AFs. hth
 
PetFlora

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
Following Atomizer's lead, today I experimented with cutting my feed time from ~3 seconds to ~ 2, playing with the pause I started at 1:35 and each hour increased it to an hour before lights out 2:00.

Interesting development began showing up late this afternoon. Both plants started to look like they do shortly after I FF with DM LL/S. Virtually all leafs are reaching up stretching toward the light. Whee is Atomizer when I need him to explain this????
 
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Bob Smith

Well-Known Member
Atomizer, what comparable Aquatec pump would you recommend as a replacement for this?

http://www.steam-brite.com/store/shurflo-viton-seals-p-4296.html

I've seen you recommending Aquatecs as quieter, so since I'm getting a backup pump I figure I might as well get a quieter pump for my main pump and keep the Shurflo inline as my backup/emergency pump.

I'll be using an external pressure switch, so I just need one that can handle up to 130PSI (I run up to 125PSI).

Thanks.
 
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pounce

Member
I don't grow the same things as you guys, but run aero at 1000psi using off the shelf misting system parts. You can see these from Orbit or Aero Mist etc. They are intended to be for outdoor cooling for patios and whatnot. You can get a pump between maybe 800 and 1500 to do 1000psi and run quite a few mist heads. You can go all out and run hard stainless lines using compression fittings or use the nylon lines. If you go nylon look for the slip lock type fittings. You can re-use them unlike compression fittings where you have to keep replacing the ferrules. High pressure solenoids are a lot more expensive than the low pressure ones, but with 1000psi and a smaller operation you probably don't need many. I use them for control.

With 1000 psi you can use any number of non drip misters and you really don't have to worry about getting the droplet size. You just need to worry about picking the right flow and then cleaning the nozzles...probably more if you are running nutrients in the system or recirculating. Salts might be a problem.

What I grow just wants/needs water at the roots. If I need nutrients I do it up top. That makes my system a bit more simple than yours since you want to run the pump from a tank.
 
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Bob Smith

Well-Known Member
Not really sure what the benefit of running that high of a pressure would be, honestly.

If I had a large accumulator tank and a quality regulator capable of handling 1000PSI I could see, but as far as I can tell there's virtually no incremental benefit from going to 100 to 1000PSI.

For me the next step is air assisted.
 
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pounce

Member
Bob Smith said:
Not really sure what the benefit of running that high of a pressure would be, honestly.
Click to expand...

  • More misters on the line outputting the same consistent water droplet size. Try 75 or 100 on a low end pump.
  • Less low pressure bleed or initial blow on the roots preventing proper uptake.
  • Greater degree of tuning with various mist nozzles so you can adjust on a per run or per container level based on size or age without adjusting your misting time. i.e. you can increase or decrease liter per hour or gallon per hour by swapping the nozzle.
  • etc


Might not be an advantage to you. Some people buy a lot of car just to know they can use it when they want to...Some people drive econo cars. Both will get you there. I agree a person can run just fine at ~100psi with less costly parts. I do suggest using more expensive solenoids over the Orbit or rainbird irrigation ones if a person uses solenoids. They will lose it after about a year running short bursts or low flow. No problem if you just keeps some spares and keep and eye on things. Better brass ones are only about $25 on ebay and perform a little faster.

With 1000psi you don't run an accumulator. No need. Honestly, if they even make such a thing I bet it's quite expensive. The 1000psi pumps are very efficient, but expensive compared to an aquatec or a shurflo.
 
B

Bob Smith

Well-Known Member
pounce said:
  • More misters on the line outputting the same consistent water droplet size. Try 75 or 100 on a low end pump.
  • Less low pressure bleed or initial blow on the roots preventing proper uptake.
  • Greater degree of tuning with various mist nozzles so you can adjust on a per run or per container level based on size or age without adjusting your misting time. i.e. you can increase or decrease liter per hour or gallon per hour by swapping the nozzle.
  • etc


Might not be an advantage to you. Some people buy a lot of car just to know they can use it when they want to...Some people drive econo cars. Both will get you there. I agree a person can run just fine at ~100psi with less costly parts. I do suggest using more expensive solenoids over the Orbit or rainbird irrigation ones if a person uses solenoids. They will lose it after about a year running short bursts or low flow. No problem if you just keeps some spares and keep and eye on things. Better brass ones are only about $25 on ebay and perform a little faster.

With 1000psi you don't run an accumulator. No need. Honestly, if they even make such a thing I bet it's quite expensive. The 1000psi pumps are very efficient, but expensive compared to an aquatec or a shurflo.
Click to expand...
A large enough accumulator paired with my pump could run 100s of nozzles; that's not really a concern of mine.

With the proper misting nozzles (already planning on implementing for next grow), they don't spit unless the PSI is >=90, and there's no drip.

I can setup valves/more solenoids/more timers to control flow to different "pods".

Again, I really don't see the benefit of 1,000PSI, assuming you're getting ~50 microns at 100PSI - the one advantage I can think of would be in unclogging nozzles, that's for damn sure :)

By your logic, if 1,000PSI is better, 10,000PSI must be the supertits, right?
 
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pounce

Member
Bob Smith said:
By your logic, if 1,000PSI is better, 10,000PSI must be the supertits, right?
Click to expand...
No. I don't think I ever said anything like "yours suck and mines better" or bigger is better. I think I've clearly stated the difference. I'm not pushing 1000psi on you. Just offering that this is what I use and why. Re-read my posts. I think you are being defensive and critical when I'm just "sharing".

Have a good one.
 
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Atomizer

Well-Known Member
Imho a standalone pump will lack the necessary control. Unless it can start and stop instantly at 1000psi, you have ramping pressure and mist run on with decreasing pressure. Hi pressure aero is not all about the mist, contrary to popular belief ;-)
 
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pounce

Member
Atomizer said:
Imho a standalone pump will lack the necessary control. Unless it can start and stop instantly at 1000psi, you have ramping pressure and mist run on with decreasing pressure. Hi pressure aero is not all about the mist, contrary to popular belief ;-)
Click to expand...
Yes. Agreed. The reason for solenoids and non drip mist heads that crack at 250psi.
 
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Atomizer

Well-Known Member
Thats half the story on non drip valves, the closing pressure is lower than the opening pressure. Disregarding that fact, 1000psi to 250psi is a sizable drop and it will cause the mist to run on after the solenoid closes. Can you redress the balance by shortening the pump running time to a second or two? Nope :)
 
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pounce

Member
Atomizer said:
Thats half the story on non drip valves, the closing pressure is lower than the opening pressure. Disregarding that fact, 1000psi to 250psi is a sizable drop and it will cause the mist to run on after the solenoid closes. Can you redress the balance by shortening the pump running time to a second or two? Nope :)
Click to expand...

You drop the line pressure by first shutting off the line from the pump with a solenoid and using another to drop the pressure by opening. Think of it as using non drip for the crack instead of the drip.

I don't use timers. I have a control system. A person could do the same as me with something like arduino and some relay shields. Nobody needs to spend 150 on a controllers when you can get something you can orchestrate with a script for less.

If you have questions you can ask. Kind of silly to keep taking shots. :)
 
D

Deximus

Active Member
pounce said:
I don't use timers. I have a control system. A person could do the same as me with something like arduino and some relay shields. Nobody needs to spend 150 on a controllers when you can get something you can orchestrate with a script for less.
Click to expand...
Sometimes that saddens me... microcontrollers running a simple program are actually cheaper than a dedicated digital circuit nowadays, even for things as simple as a recycling timer. I enjoy logic circuit design, but it seems so pointless now. What are you using? It's been a while and things are no doubt different than when I was playing with PICs and Basic Stamps.
 
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pounce

Member
Deximus said:
Sometimes that saddens me... microcontrollers running a simple program are actually cheaper than a dedicated digital circuit nowadays, even for things as simple as a recycling timer. I enjoy logic circuit design, but it seems so pointless now. What are you using? It's been a while and things are no doubt different than when I was playing with PICs and Basic Stamps.
Click to expand...
I have my own design. That said you can take a look at the i2c relay board from GHI (http://www.ghielectronics.com/catalog/product/169). GHI sells arduino like products, but for the .net micro framework. Their relay board is i2c so its really compatible with arduino or anything using i2c.

Another solution that is flexible and web based out of the box (just not as much control as your own logic) is a DIN from digital-loggers.com. It has basic scripting now too so it looks like a nice plug and play if you just need 8 relays. Another cool thing about the DIN is that you can run ac or dc on it. Downside is that it is 150 or so unless you buy volume. Upside is that it has a web interface. You can even control it from perl or python from another computer on the network...If I were to build another system I'd probably try something like this one. I use their web power switches for servers and lighting.
 
B

Bob Smith

Well-Known Member
pounce said:
You drop the line pressure by first shutting off the line from the pump with a solenoid and using another to drop the pressure by opening. Think of it as using non drip for the crack instead of the drip.

I don't use timers. I have a control system. A person could do the same as me with something like arduino and some relay shields. Nobody needs to spend 150 on a controllers when you can get something you can orchestrate with a script for less.

If you have questions you can ask. Kind of silly to keep taking shots. :)
Click to expand...
I'll ask - mind drawing a diagram of your setup and attaching it? I'm having a hard time grasping exactly what you're doing.............but honestly, it really does sound more complex with no tangible benefit (that I can see).

The arduino thing sounds cool - someone at another website put me onto them, but I have no idea how hard it is to program (I'm very good with Excel/VBA code, but that's about it for my computer knowledge).

I'm planning on ripping my current system down in a run or two and going the air assisted route (possibly, still on the fence with that), but if your way truly is better/offers more flexibility than I'm very interested.

Sorry if you thought I was being defensive; I really wasn't trying to be - again, I'm still not sure what the benefit of a system like yours provides.

Thanks for contributing though, and I think I speak for all of us when I say I'd love to see a diagram/schematic if you could (although pics would obviously be better) - if neither of those are possible, could you spell out again how your system works?
 
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pounce

Member
Sure. I'll see what I can put together. Arduino is easy if you can even just use excel formulas, but that DIN unit looks pretty easy as well and it has a web server. Check out the scripting. It's basic, but there is threading so switching isn't executed in a serial fashion. It's concurrent ... or so it would appear. I like that they have NO and NC on each switch. Really, that thing could just act as relay switches for larger contractors that could power some really large equipment or lighting.

Where are you finding the air misters at what sort of prices? The siphon PTFE ones I've seen would be pretty cool if you could find a good source. With siphon each line or even container could have it's own nutrients. That level of experimentation flexibility might be worth it if they function well.
 
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ilikecheetoes

Well-Known Member
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MyAeroponics

Member
What size systems are you guys running? Must be huge to have to use so much pressure. I am doing micro spray systems and am having great results using a 130 watt pump that delivers 1000 gph. I have no idea what the preassure is but if I were to take a guess maybe 40psi at most. But the spray creates a very nice mist. My other question is why are you timing the run time? I run 24/7, is this bad because all I see is green growing plants that average anywhere fro 2 to 4 inches a day in mass growth. You can find my site at myaeroponics.com
 
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