The 'Official' Do Not Vote For Obama In 2012 - Thread. Don't Want Him Back N Office!

[MrDank007]

Economics changes with the times. Keynes is not a one size fits all and is antiquated in many ways.

 

[canndo]

Different skills are worth different amounts. It’s up to the individual to make themselves valuable to the market place. Because one person works smarter than another they should be required to put in more, that doesn’t make sense to me. I think it’s up to other free people to determine what your skills are worth to them not the government. And if your skills allow you to make more money so be it. I think the reason for taxes was to raise revenue for the government, not to get even with someone who is more valuable to the market place.

What? What we are talking about has nothing to do with skill. What we are talking about is time. You have said that you measure what you contribute to this country in time. Now why should you put more time into the welfare of this country than another? And why should another put in less than you? If we are looking for fairness then each should put say, an hour a day toward his country. Woudn't you call that fair?

 

[canndo]

I have been told that I am an iconoclast for it's own sake. Some view that as being contrarian. I may have such traits but the statement stands. You agree that children do not have the right to the fruits of their parent's labor (aside from the early years where they most certainly do). The dead have no rights at all, least of which is the right to leave another their fortunes because the moment the person dies there is no"their". Now how is that contrarian?

 

[BudMcLovin]

What? What we are talking about has nothing to do with skill. What we are talking about is time. You have said that you measure what you contribute to this country in time. Now why should you put more time into the welfare of this country than another? And why should another put in less than you? If we are looking for fairness then each should put say, an hour a day toward his country. Woudn't you call that fair?

So a man spending his time to acquire new skills should count for nothing? Because society is willing to pay them more because they took the time, they should be punished for that. No that’s not the way it should be. It is an individual responsibility to better your situation and if you choose to stay where you start that’s an individual choice.

 

[TheDemocrat]

It's all about choice...right?

 

[mame]

The vast majority of his ideas have been proven to work. Just saying.

I could spend a whole lot of time giving examples and explain why Keynesian economics are responsible and then you will blame people and capitalism and then I will give you theories.... around and around we go. I will just save all that time and make this point. I believe Keynesian (or any other economic theory that give the State broad sweeping powers) to be dangerous. Keynesian economics haven't saved us from this global meltdown and if it seems like it has it is just putting off the inevitable.

You're partially right, but that is because many governments are engaging in Austerity instead (which is worse, quite frankly).

The only things that kept the $850 billion dollar stimulus from working better than it did are 1) half of it was tax cuts, as opposed to infrastructure and 2)$850 billion wouldn't have been enough in the first place (estimates have shown that 1.2-1.4 trillion would have likely been sufficient).

Keynesian economics are responsible for the fastest economic recovery in the history of the world (New Deal, the Great Depression), Monetarist economic principles ended inflation by inducing both the depression and recovery in the early 1980's, Keynesian and monetarist principles were used in Japan's "Lost Decade" (although it took them quite a while to actually spend enough to get out of their recession, after the first round of legislative acts it took them until 1998 to spend more... a couple of years later they recovered and have been considered one of the best economies in the world.. until massive waves ofc).

Where has classical economics taken us?

It just seems everywhere I look, the evidence is there for Keynes - but there is nothing supporting neo-classical policies as a way out of recession(many key principles are essentially frauds... Trickle down theory? debunked.. cutting taxes increases revenue? debunked...).

 

[canndo]

So a man spending his time to acquire new skills should count for nothing? Because society is willing to pay them more because they took the time, they should be punished for that. No that’s not the way it should be. It is an individual responsibility to better your situation and if you choose to stay where you start that’s an individual choice.

No, I am talking only about the time he spends making money for himself or the time he is forced to spend in the service of his government. No one is punished for that. I am still going off of your initial statement. Say you and I each give an hour a day to the government, would you say that is fair between us? Are you giving more than I? Am I giving more than you?

 

[Windsblow]

I have been told that I am an iconoclast for it's own sake. Some view that as being contrarian. I may have such traits but the statement stands. You agree that children do not have the right to the fruits of their parent's labor (aside from the early years where they most certainly do). The dead have no rights at all, least of which is the right to leave another their fortunes because the moment the person dies there is no"their". Now how is that contrarian?

Don't pat yourself on the back. Your not contrarian because of some self described iconoclast position. It seems it's purely because you just want to feel smart.

Again. I never said people have the right to others property and you know that. You just want to reframing the argument because you don't have one.

Let me ask you. If somebody doesn't have a right to determine what his property is to be used for or were it goes. Then who does? Does it go somewhere or are armed guards hire to stand around a pile of wealth protecting it from others for all eternity?

My guess is you think the State has the right to it. Right?

Lets just cut through all the crap. You believe the State have the right to armed confiscation/robbing private citizen of their wealth.

 

[solarphlare]

If there is one thing that I am certain of, it is know'n that the acceptance of marijuana has come this far, mainly because of OBAMA. So for all of you that are bad mothing him just remember that obtaining your medication is a lot eaiser because of him. Now lets be honost if Donald Trump wins do you think he is going to be as down as OBAMA is for helping us with the fight to have access to our meds. I believe that he has a great bussness mind but were human with rights, and feelings not some kind of company that needs to be ran, not trying to have no dumb ass argument over her or him or this or that, I am just a proud AMERICAN sharing my two cents. I belive that OBAMA has always kept it real and has given us the facts.

 

[BudMcLovin]

No, I am talking only about the time he spends making money for himself or the time he is forced to spend in the service of his government. No one is punished for that. I am still going off of your initial statement. Say you and I each give an hour a day to the government, would you say that is fair between us? Are you giving more than I? Am I giving more than you?

Time is money. The government takes your time by taking your money. Now if you want to change from a money based tax system to a time based one I’ll go hour for hour. Until that happens money is used as a replacement of our time. Why then should a man punished because he is more efficient with his time? It’s up to the person to acquire the skills need to make their time more valuable. Life’s not fair and no amount of government theft will make it so.

 

[canndo]

Time is money. The government takes your time by taking your money. Now if you want to change from a money based tax system to a time based one I’ll go hour for hour. Until that happens money is used as a replacement of our time. Why then should a man punished because he is more efficient with his time? It’s up to the person to acquire the skills need to make their time more valuable. Life’s not fair and no amount of government theft will make it so.

Very well then, because in this world we cannot directly give our time to the government, we must give the government something that represents our time, which as you said, is money. Therefore, if it is an hour for hour sort of thing, If I make $125 per hour and you make $85 per hour regardless of what we do or how we came to be able to do it, If I send the government $125 and you send it $85 is this not perfectly equitable and fair?

 

[Windsblow]

"Keynesian economics are responsible for the fastest economic recovery in the history of the world (New Deal, the Great Depression)"

It is precisely called the great depression because economics policies of that period failed to respond quick enough to result in less, say a recession. Your statement contradicts it's self.

 

[Windsblow]

If there is one thing that I am certain of, it is know'n that the acceptance of marijuana has come this far, mainly because of OBAMA. So for all of you that are bad mothing him just remember that obtaining your medication is a lot eaiser because of him. Now lets be honost if Donald Trump wins do you think he is going to be as down as OBAMA is for helping us with the fight to have access to our meds. I believe that he has a great bussness mind but were human with rights, and feelings not some kind of company that needs to be ran, not trying to have no dumb ass argument over her or him or this or that, I am just a proud AMERICAN sharing my two cents. I belive that OBAMA has always kept it real and has given us the facts.

What?? Obama didn't do anything. This is a States issue. Arizona passed because both the Liberals and the Conservatives agreed. Arizona did this not the Messiah.

 

[canndo]

What?? Obama didn't do anything. This is a States issue. Arizona passed because both the Liberals and the Conservatives agreed. Arizona did this not the Messiah.

I agree, we don't have Obama to thank for any progess that has been made in the legalization of pot.

 

[Windsblow]

Time is money. The government takes your time by taking your money. Now if you want to change from a money based tax system to a time based one I’ll go hour for hour. Until that happens money is used as a replacement of our time. Why then should a man punished because he is more efficient with his time? It’s up to the person to acquire the skills need to make their time more valuable. Life’s not fair and no amount of government theft will make it so.

+rep

Well put!

 

[londonfog]

Obama 2012...unless you can name someone else

 

[BudMcLovin]

Very well then, because in this world we cannot directly give our time to the government, we must give the government something that represents our time, which as you said, is money. Therefore, if it is an hour for hour sort of thing, If I make $125 per hour and you make $85 per hour regardless of what we do or how we came to be able to do it, If I send the government $125 and you send it $85 is this not perfectly equitable and fair?

No because at the end of the day taxes are for raising revenue not making life fair for someone who hasn’t made themselves as valuable to the market place. No one made a man work 30 years in a factory or digging ditches or sitting on their fat ass doing nothing. Life isn’t fair and the government can’t make it so by taxing others more. The bottom 40% don’t pay shit in federal taxes. Why? Shouldn’t they have some skin in the game?

 

[londonfog]

Obama 2012 unless you can name someone else...

 

[mame]

"Keynesian economics are responsible for the fastest economic recovery in the history of the world (New Deal, the Great Depression)"

It is precisely called the great depression because economics policies of that period failed to respond quick enough to result in less, say a recession. Your statement contradicts it's self.

You mean the policies of Hoover? The same ones the Republicans would follow? They were called HOOVERVILLES remember? Just another example of conservatives trying to re-write history.

It wasn't until FDR took office and began pursuing New Deal policies that the economy began to recover. It was Hoover who discredited the Classical school of economics and FDR who proved Keynesianism effective... NOT the other way around.

 

[Windsblow]

Time is money. The government takes your time by taking your money. Now if you want to change from a money based tax system to a time based one I’ll go hour for hour. Until that happens money is used as a replacement of our time. Why then should a man punished because he is more efficient with his time? It’s up to the person to acquire the skills need to make their time more valuable. Life’s not fair and no amount of government theft will make it so.

Very well then, because in this world we cannot directly give our time to the government, we must give the government something that represents our time, which as you said, is money. Therefore, if it is an hour for hour sort of thing, If I make $125 per hour and you make $85 per hour regardless of what we do or how we came to be able to do it, If I send the government $125 and you send it $85 is this not perfectly equitable and fair?

This is just intellectualized class envy.