VICTORYGARDENSHYDRO
New Member
you would want to feed him even more, fatten him up, he won't win the race, but should feed the whole fam damily.lmfao
Uncle Ben's Topping Technique to Get 2 or 4 Main Colas
- Thread starter Uncle Ben
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you would want to feed him even more, fatten him up, he won't win the race, but should feed the whole fam damily.lmfao
ChroniCDooM
Active Member
LMAO at your quote in your sig. Luv that!
This is an awesome thread, really almost like a textbook, an online classroom. Much love and thanks to Uncle Ben! I am about 1/4 of the way through (like 75 pages in) and am wondering about the differences in yield between the 4 cola method and ccob method? Ccob being pretty much a single top lst.
The grow I am planning is 20 plants in a 5x5 area under a 1000w hps (with a premium mh conversion bulb for veg), so there won't be much room for giant bushes stretching out laterally. UB's 4 cola topping technique seems perfect for this. I will be rotating, by hand, all of the plants daily for equal light distribution on each plant. Given that the 4 colas tend to lean to the side so the plant takes a vase-like shape, would it be a bad idea to hang some CFLs directly into the open "vase" interior of the plants during their days in the 'corners' (lower top-down lioght) areas of the grow room? And yes, a simple tomato cage seems like an awesome idea to keep the colas from leaning too much.
The grow I am planning is 20 plants in a 5x5 area under a 1000w hps (with a premium mh conversion bulb for veg), so there won't be much room for giant bushes stretching out laterally. UB's 4 cola topping technique seems perfect for this. I will be rotating, by hand, all of the plants daily for equal light distribution on each plant. Given that the 4 colas tend to lean to the side so the plant takes a vase-like shape, would it be a bad idea to hang some CFLs directly into the open "vase" interior of the plants during their days in the 'corners' (lower top-down lioght) areas of the grow room? And yes, a simple tomato cage seems like an awesome idea to keep the colas from leaning too much.
Life Goes On
Active Member
Dude unless you plan on going SOG in that 5X5 area your insane if you think you'll fit 20 plants in there? I have a 5X5 tent and using UB's technique I let them grow to 5th-6th node chop to 2nd TRUE node (not including cotyledon site) and veg for another month. My plants end up being around 4-5 feet tall and quite bushy. I can fit 4 plants comfortably in there. Any more and they are quite crowded. So unless you plan on switching to 12/12 as soon as your seeds show face then you'll be alright with 20 plants. BUT if that's the case then it is pointless to use UB's technique unless you switch to 12/12 right after you cut them back down to the 2nd node. Even then I don't know if 20 plants will fit as a general rule of thumb is 1 gallon for every one month of life SO even if you switch to 12/12 right after you top them you are also going to have to have them in at least 3 gallon pots. As it takes about 1 month for the plants to reach there 5th-6th node. Then on average most "Predominantly" Indica plants take about 2 months to flower. If you switch to 12/12 as soon as the seeds show face then you could get away with a 2 gallon pot. I do imagine that your strains are "Predominantly" Indica right? As 20 Sativa's in a 5X5 area even under SOG conditions is pretty farfetched? As far as yield goes on 4 cola vs ccob I couldn't tell ya as I never experimented with LST. But I can tell you this I average 6-8 DRIED and CURED oz per plant using UB's topping technique letting them veg for another month after topping and then switching to 12/12! 24-32 oz out of 4 plants! I think that's a pretty good yield if you ask me! Oh and by the way I use a 400 MH for veg and 600 HPS for flower. I know yield is also very strain dependant and my strains are average yielders! BubbleBerry and Dairy Queen! So if 1LB and a half - 2 pounds out of 4 plants if average I would LOVE to see above average!
Thanks man, I really am a newb. I was thinking 5x5, 5 5gal pots in a row x 4 rows with an extra foot after the 4th row. I am using a single 1000watt hid and don't want to push the limit of what the light can effectively cover. I am going 24/0 and was going to veg another week after cutting back to second node and then go into 12/12. Height is not really an issue nor is space in general, just don't wanna stretch the light too far. So, roughly 5 weeks veg, 1000watt hid (mh conversion for veg, hps for flower), UB's method, as much space as I need...what would you suggest for max yield in minimum time under those conditions? I am even willing to move plants around by hand so they get an equal share of optimal light.
Thanks
sso
Well-Known Member
dont count your chickens before they´ve hatched, look around and see that only newbs ask yield questions (and for good reasons) unless of course its a joke contest or something.
you are gonna need to use a shorter veg time if you are going with 20 plants. how much more, not sure, havent seen your plants or rate of growth, possibly a more experienced grower can help you there.
you are gonna need to use a shorter veg time if you are going with 20 plants. how much more, not sure, havent seen your plants or rate of growth, possibly a more experienced grower can help you there.
Of course I am a newb. Seems like right around 4 weeks to get the 6th node for this method is the min veg time, and I am going 24/0 to make that as short a time as possible. I just want to give it some extra growth after topping, not much. Asking for suggestions on how to max yield in minimum time under given conditions seems like a legit (if noobish) question to me.
Life Goes On
Active Member
I was a newb once therefore I understand the reason for the questions and I am Happy to offer my help to anyone who asks (At least till I have been a member of this site as long as UB and have answered the same question 50 billion times). So what I would suggest is not going 24/0. This will not make your plants grow any faster. Think about it. Plants are living breathing things just as myself and you right? Well then you need some rest EVERY night now don't you? What happens if you don't get that rest? You get cranky and don't want to do ANYTHING! Well plants are the same way and I believe that like humans a plant needs a minimum of 4 hours of dark/rest every night just as a human in order for the body to operate and function properly. So I would go at least 20/4 but I personally use the 18/6 Method.
Now if light efficiency is your main concern and you insist on growin 16-20 plants in your 5x5 area go SOG. With the plants being short it will maximize efficiency of your light and you have a shorter grow time with SOG. 2 Months compared to at least 3 with any other technique. OR you could use UB's technique on lets say maybe 4 plants max. That will REALLY maximize light efficiency. Trust me cramming 16-20 plants in a 5X5 area and they WILL overlap (if not get all tangled up) which prevents light penetration deep into the canopy of your crop.
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
FWIW, cramming plants into a small space will increase the FR (far red) spectrum as seen by foliage, especially at the lower levels. (I'm guilty as charged.) This in turn will induce stretch. If you want a challenge, increase R while decreasing FR during the flowering phase.
I've always vegged with 20/4. It is a nice compromise between 24/0 and 18/6..... and in this biz, compromises produce the best results.
It's all in The Balance,
UB
I've always vegged with 20/4. It is a nice compromise between 24/0 and 18/6..... and in this biz, compromises produce the best results.
It's all in The Balance,
UB
Thanks for the answers, totally appreciated. I don't want to fuck up your thread (UB) with this debate but 24/0 is well established to cause to the plant to grow 30% faster, with tighter nodes. Don't take my word for it, take the word of people like Mel Frank,Ed Rosenthal, and cannabis botanical science in general. The stretch induced by cramming plants into a smaller space should be compromised by the tighter nodes resulting from the 24/0 schedule. I really am a newb grower but have been studying cannabis horticulture for about 20 years. Thats not props to me, it just means where cannabis is concerned I am an academician more than a real-life practicioner (well other than smoking the stuff ). I am trying to formulate the best possible plan applying what I know against the tried-and true practices of real-life experienced growers.
I am not at all saying I should put those 20 plants in that 5x5 space. The space can be 6x6, 8x8...I just want optimal coverage using the 1000watt hid. I am also planning on using mutliple cfls for side lighting, spinning each plant each day and re-positioning the plants every single day so they each get a share of optimimal lighting.
The strain I plan on using is Sannis Killing fields, a dominant sativa with an advised short veg period, a plant that is supposed grow explosively during (a relatively long) flower. My hopes are to 12/12 asap and grow 4 colas during flower like randy t-rex dicks.
Again, I am not trying to be contradictory or a dick in any way and have nothing but kind hopes of incredible health and prosperity for those generous enough to read through and answer my questions.
). I am trying to formulate the best possible plan applying what I know against the tried-and true practices of real-life experienced growers. I am not at all saying I should put those 20 plants in that 5x5 space. The space can be 6x6, 8x8...I just want optimal coverage using the 1000watt hid. I am also planning on using mutliple cfls for side lighting, spinning each plant each day and re-positioning the plants every single day so they each get a share of optimimal lighting.
The strain I plan on using is Sannis Killing fields, a dominant sativa with an advised short veg period, a plant that is supposed grow explosively during (a relatively long) flower. My hopes are to 12/12 asap and grow 4 colas during flower like randy t-rex dicks.
Again, I am not trying to be contradictory or a dick in any way and have nothing but kind hopes of incredible health and prosperity for those generous enough to read through and answer my questions.
Danielsgb
Well-Known Member
No way a 1000W will cover more than 5' x 5', and like they are saying 20 plants is too much. You have to think of sizes when they are into flowering. It's like someone who plants a new tree 12' from their house, not thinking about 15 yrs later, when it's spread hits 40'. UB mentioned how FR causes stretching, there is also another term for how plants sense how close one is next to it, so stretches. I can't remember the term.
I've read Mel Franks book 3 times, and don't remember advocating 24/0. I use 20/4 or 18/6. One other thing I'd point out is Sativas aren't known for being short and stocky so they take more space. Maybe if you had a light mover so the footprint was more like 8' x 5' or 10' x 5' you could get more like 16 to 20 then. Just my .02
Daniels
I've read Mel Franks book 3 times, and don't remember advocating 24/0. I use 20/4 or 18/6. One other thing I'd point out is Sativas aren't known for being short and stocky so they take more space. Maybe if you had a light mover so the footprint was more like 8' x 5' or 10' x 5' you could get more like 16 to 20 then. Just my .02
Daniels
Life Goes On
Active Member
=OpSec420;5610175]Thanks for the answers, totally appreciated. I don't want to fuck up your thread (UB) with this debate but 24/0 is well established to cause to the plant to grow 30% faster, with tighter nodes. Don't take my word for it, take the word of people like Mel Frank,Ed Rosenthal, and cannabis botanical science in general. The stretch induced by cramming plants into a smaller space should be compromised by the tighter nodes resulting from the 24/0 schedule. I really am a newb grower but have been studying cannabis horticulture for about 20 years. Thats not props to me, it just means where cannabis is concerned I am an academician more than a real-life practicioner (well other than smoking the stuff
I am not at all saying I should put those 20 plants in that 5x5 space. The space can be 6x6, 8x8...I just want optimal coverage using the 1000watt hid. I am also planning on using mutliple cfls for side lighting, spinning each plant each day and re-positioning the plants every single day so they each get a share of optimimal lighting.
The strain I plan on using is Sannis Killing fields, a dominant sativa with an advised short veg period, a plant that is supposed grow explosively during (a relatively long) flower. My hopes are to 12/12 asap and grow 4 colas during flower like randy t-rex dicks.
Again, I am not trying to be contradictory or a dick in any way and have nothing but kind hopes of incredible health and prosperity for those generous enough to read through and answer my questions.
Well I don't know about Mel Frank and Ed Rosenthal but this was done under 18/6 and I would have to say those buds are not only BIG but TIGHT as well. The plant itself is only 30" tall from stem base to cola top so that tells me internode spacing is VERY tight as well. Pics are at 6 weeks flower.
With that being said on to your quest for maximum efficiency. Of course the smaller the room is and the higher wattage light you use your efficiency will increase HOWEVER the amount of plants you put into that space is also a VERY important factor. Oh not to mention ballast efficiency. Nowadays it is more efficient to run two 600W than it is to run one 1000W (Depending on ballast type) so that is something else you might want to consider.
Ya know as I sit here (Stoned of course) I can't help but think to myself that something funny is going on here? You claim you studied MJ Hort for 20 years? Yet your having a hard time maximizing efficiency? I'm pretty sure that in those 20 years you've came across light penetration charts based on distances and lumens and how much wattage per square ft of space you need to "efficiently" grow? Ya know I'm down to help but hell even if you've never grown and studied MJ Hort in specific then I would imagine if you ever were planning to grow part of your planning would be a space/light efficiency scheme?
Honestly man that is just something you will have to develope on your own. We could sit here and talk the "sciences" of it all day but when it comes to science "EVERYONE" has there own opinions and theorys. Therefore you just have to experiment and see what works for YOU and develope your own opinions and theorys on what works. I just feel if you've studied for 20 years you should be teaching me? Oh and not gonna lie. You being a "newb" and all with a name like OpSec420. Kinda scares me. Sounds like a federales sting code name!
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
We tend to see what we want, expect, or hope to see. It's just human nature, and there's alot of HUMAN nature in cannabis forums LOL.
Regarding light, my best indoor gardens have been 35w/s.f. (gawd I hate that inaccurate, stupid, forum paradigm). Your final production is dependent on how you manage about 20 different growth factors.
UB
Regarding light, my best indoor gardens have been 35w/s.f. (gawd I hate that inaccurate, stupid, forum paradigm). Your final production is dependent on how you manage about 20 different growth factors.
UB
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
No offense, but I won't. I don't recall reading any scientific studies regarding actual plant material bulk as it relates to photoperiods......bulk measured in grams, mg., etc. in any of the books you mentioned.
You guys may want to continue this light discussion here - https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-m...9-positive-effect-diffused-versus-direct.html
Again, with every new crop of noobs comes the same old questions, theories, anecdotal evidence and stuff.
UB
Your 2 cents is golden, thank you very much for it
Marijuana Grower's Insider's Guide (by Mel Frank)
""Garden's grown under 24 hours of light a day do grow faster than those under 18 hours of daily light; but for many growers the cost of electricity outweighs the increase in rate of growth. Other growers reason that, considering the cost of marijuana, who cares about electrical costs? If electricity costs are a concern to you, 18 hour light cycles are your best choice.""
it is on page 57.
I plant on rotating the plants, like literaly moving the plants every day, which is the same effect as a slow speed light mover. I am not disagreeing with what you are saying, just clarifying where I am coming from.
Your shit looks sweet, 18/6 works very well for very many people.
You make some great points, good honest evaluations. I have light penetration, lumens, optimal coverage space etc all covered in about 4 different diagrams I have made up based on what I've read and seen. I have a chart made out planning exactly where each plant will be moved to each day inside coincentric spheres of penetration/lumens etc. I would much rather have 3 1000watt vertical hid with vertically staggered coverage areas on a circular light mover in a stadium grow, so that the plant-rows would be on steps matched by staggered lighting. But thats all $$$. I am trying to start relatively simple to get the hands-on fine points down before trying anything too experimental.
About teaching it really seems to me that we are/should be all teaching each other. In other words, sharing information. That is what I am trying to do, take some info in, give some info out. More take than give for me due to lack of hands on experience.
About my SN, my background does indeed involve opsec (Operational Security), and I use different SN's on many different mj cultivation forums, not using any single one for too long, and am ALWAYS the newb asking questions, never growing my own. That is opsec. OpSec420 just means "OperationalSecurity: cannabis". In other words, like Gandalf said, "keep it secret, keep it safe!".
Life Goes On
Active Member
Yes I am prior service myself 3rd Brigade 4th ID (Mechanized) 4th Squadron 10th Cavalry Regiment. Buffalo Soldiers! so I know what OpSec stands for that's why I got nervous. Anyway it seems to me as if you have everything all thought out so run with it brotha! Like I said it's all about experimentation and seeing what works best for you!
I am wondering how much stock you put into hobbes idea that with light movers/plant rotation you can cut that effective w/sf number in half, in other words rather than 35/sf prime, 17.5/sf prime with a mover.
I quoted passage, page #, book and author (Franks); not an increase in weight or bulk so much as simply a faster growing plant with tighter nodes during veg. I digress though, and will continue the discussion in a more appropriate thread. Much respect and thanks to you for posting your knowledge and hope to see you in one of the light threads.
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