Tired of the 2 parties that do nothing but take?

tokingtiger

Well-Known Member
There is a 3rd party in the USA called the Libertarian Party ! One reason i voted for Obama was that he inhaled, that was the purpose of smoking but that is as far as he has gone and the Nazzi republicans just want to make us all criminals or police in thier scarry possible world if we leave them in office too long..

Here is thier main site: http://www.lp.org/platform i actually really like that they have a preamble that includes:
1.2 Personal Privacy
Libertarians support the rights recognized by the Fourth Amendment to be secure in our persons,
homes, and property. Protection from unreasonable search and seizure should include records held
by third parties, such as email, medical, and library records. Only actions that infringe on the rights
of others can properly be termed crimes. We favor the repeal of all laws creating “crimes” without
victims, such as the use of drugs for medicinal or recreational purposes.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
There are major issues with libertarians I'm afraid. Their idea of consumer safety is reactionary rather than preemptive.
 

undertheice

Well-Known Member
Their idea of consumer safety is reactionary rather than preemptive.
and that preemptive strategy has just been doing so well for us, hasn't it. the nanny-state mentality has created more problems than it has solved and helped to drive american industry into the toilet. when given the chance, governmental bureaucracy will always take things too far and that's just what all these laws designed to protect us from ourselves are a sign of. at some point the people must take their protection into their own hands and quit clutching onto the apron strings of an over-protective state, over-reaching, over-controlling state.
 

mame

Well-Known Member
and that preemptive strategy has just been doing so well for us, hasn't it. the nanny-state mentality has created more problems than it has solved and helped to drive american industry into the toilet. when given the chance, governmental bureaucracy will always take things too far and that's just what all these laws designed to protect us from ourselves are a sign of. at some point the people must take their protection into their own hands and quit clutching onto the apron strings of an over-protective state, over-reaching, over-controlling state.
This is entirely opinion without evidence and to no one's surprise I completely disagree. Produce for me some examples of this "over-reaching" and "over-controlling" state destroying our nations economy... Can you?

It's amazing how anyone can blame the government, for example, for causing the 08 recession. Fannie, Freddie? They held less than 1/5th of the subprimes that went bad and actually were subject to harsher regulations than the private sector - Wall Street - that caused this mess by making too many bad bets(which could have been avoided if the government prevented them from making said bets in the first place I.E. regulation).

Think of it like this: You're walking your dog along the edge of a cliff and he's pretty energetic so he runs between you and the cliff as you walk along it - stopping only when his leash stops him. You want him to run all over, because you want him to use his energy, but you dont want him to fall off the cliff - so you walk 8 feet from the edge and your leash is 6 feet long so your dog is pretty safe to do as he pleases within the 6 feet you allow.

Now, the government(you) regulates(the leash) companies(dog) in a manner that allows maximum economic growth(dog using his energy) while also seeking to prevent economic disaster (the dog falls off the cliff).

The deregulation argument is basically the equivilent of lengthening the leash or removing it entirely with faith that the dog(any dog) is smart enough to not run off the edge.

Do you trust that the dog is smart enough not to run right off the edge? Maybe. Maybe not. Depends on the dog. Should you trust profiteers not to risk too much, ultimately causing a global economic collapse? Maybe. Maybe not. Depends on the person. Considering we all know the world is imperfect, wouldn't you rather be sure that everyone is following the same rules based on what we as a society deem to be fair?

Ron Paul used the same argument, "if heroin was legal how many people here would use it? We dont need some law telling us what to do!"... What about the people who will use it? What are the costs and benefits to society for allowing this behavior? Does Heroin use cost government and by extension does it cost the taxpayer? Sure, the people using it now would do it whether or not it was illegal... But what about the message that society sends by saying it's OK to do? Would you not possibly expect more people to try it over a long period of time of legalization and acceptance? I'm sure most of us agree that Heroin should remain illegal(IDK honestly, weed site and all..) so why should it be any different with predatory lending practices, excessive risk taking, etc. that end up harming the regular Joe?
 

deprave

New Member
[video=youtube;LMIgT_NGgek]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=LMIgT_NGgek[/video]
 

Coals

Active Member
De-regulation sunk America. The definition of crazy is doing the exact same over and over and expecting different results. Greed knows no bounds, so it has to be regulated.

Just look North. Prior to 2008 the Conservative government was trying desperatley to de-regulate Canadas banking system in the name of Capitalism. After 2008, not a single bank even lost money let alone failed. The only companies that needed a bailout were American car companies. Canadas banking system is now rated #1 in the world and has seen a flood of foreign investment. The Conserveative government is now taking credit for doing such a great job during the crash.

Conservatism is a disease
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
This is entirely opinion without evidence and to no one's surprise I completely disagree. Produce for me some examples of this "over-reaching" and "over-controlling" state destroying our nations economy... Can you?

It's amazing how anyone can blame the government, for example, for causing the 08 recession. Fannie, Freddie? They held less than 1/5th of the subprimes that went bad and actually were subject to harsher regulations than the private sector - Wall Street - that caused this mess by making too many bad bets(which could have been avoided if the government prevented them from making said bets in the first place I.E. regulation).

Think of it like this: You're walking your dog along the edge of a cliff and he's pretty energetic so he runs between you and the cliff as you walk along it - stopping only when his leash stops him. You want him to run all over, because you want him to use his energy, but you dont want him to fall off the cliff - so you walk 8 feet from the edge and your leash is 6 feet long so your dog is pretty safe to do as he pleases within the 6 feet you allow.

Now, the government(you) regulates(the leash) companies(dog) in a manner that allows maximum economic growth(dog using his energy) while also seeking to prevent economic disaster (the dog falls off the cliff).

The deregulation argument is basically the equivilent of lengthening the leash or removing it entirely with faith that the dog(any dog) is smart enough to not run off the edge.

Do you trust that the dog is smart enough not to run right off the edge? Maybe. Maybe not. Depends on the dog. Should you trust profiteers not to risk too much, ultimately causing a global economic collapse? Maybe. Maybe not. Depends on the person. Considering we all know the world is imperfect, wouldn't you rather be sure that everyone is following the same rules based on what we as a society deem to be fair?

Ron Paul used the same argument, "if heroin was legal how many people here would use it? We dont need some law telling us what to do!"... What about the people who will use it? What are the costs and benefits to society for allowing this behavior? Does Heroin use cost government and by extension does it cost the taxpayer? Sure, the people using it now would do it whether or not it was illegal... But what about the message that society sends by saying it's OK to do? Would you not possibly expect more people to try it over a long period of time of legalization and acceptance? I'm sure most of us agree that Heroin should remain illegal(IDK honestly, weed site and all..) so why should it be any different with predatory lending practices, excessive risk taking, etc. that end up harming the regular Joe?
First of all Mame, it wasn't subprime loans that caused the crash of '08, it was Derivatives. Period.

We only need to educate people on Heroin and its effects to keep people from using it. We teach people that jumping out of airplanes without parachutes is dangerous and you don't see too many people doing it. We teach our kids that playing on the freeway is dangerous, and you don't see many kids doing it. Education is the answer, not overbearing government regulation.
 

mame

Well-Known Member
First of all Mame, it wasn't subprime loans that caused the crash of '08, it was Derivatives. Period.
The housing sector played it's role, but obviously derivatives played thier part - I wont dispute that. Mostly the housing example was just a rebuttle to the inevitable "fannie and freddie did it!" argument used to pin blame on the government. You only solidify my point by bringing up derivatives anyway, as they were in dire need of regulation leading up to the financial reform act and some argue didn't go far enough in regulating them; Warren Buffet, one of the undisputed "smart guys" on derivatives is one of those people(I dont know enough about the sector or it's regulations to really form a solid opinion myself on whether more regulation is needed, however)...

We only need to educate people on Heroin and its effects to keep people from using it. We teach people that jumping out of airplanes without parachutes is dangerous and you don't see too many people doing it. We teach our kids that playing on the freeway is dangerous, and you don't see many kids doing it. Education is the answer, not overbearing government regulation.
Education is an important tool but if that's all that was needed than you wouldn't have people using despite their undeniable knowledge of the consequences(having been taught all about drug use in school, and then living the reality they still choose to use?).

Sure, give people the liberty to fuck up their lives. But if that person's fuck up spills into my life, they are infringing on my liberties. If some financial firm decides to take a gamble and loses, why should I suffer? If some jackass is driving drunk, (because if you were consistent you'd believe people should be allowed to drive drunk on the grounds that government doesn't need to get involved except to educate) and he hits me or someone I care about and they die or are seriously injured - than how is that fair? How is it worth it in the name of freedom? Doesn't it makes sense to draw a line in the sand that prevents this nonsense?

Sure, people dont jump out of planes - but if you were given the choice of collecting $1 million dollars at the expense of a strangers pain, suffering or death... how many people do you think would take the money(lol isn't that a movie)? We as a society should recognize that freedom is great but at the same time we should also be wary that there are a lot of choices that effect too many people to simply hope everybody does the right thing.
 

Charlie Ventura

Active Member
The housing sector played it's role, but obviously derivatives played thier part - I wont dispute that. Mostly the housing example was just a rebuttle to the inevitable "fannie and freddie did it!" argument used to pin blame on the government. You only solidify my point by bringing up derivatives anyway, as they were in dire need of regulation leading up to the financial reform act and some argue didn't go far enough in regulating them; Warren Buffet, one of the undisputed "smart guys" on derivatives is one of those people(I dont know enough about the sector or it's regulations to really form a solid opinion myself on whether more regulation is needed, however)...


Education is an important tool but if that's all that was needed than you wouldn't have people using despite their undeniable knowledge of the consequences(having been taught all about drug use in school, and then living the reality they still choose to use?).

Sure, give people the liberty to fuck up their lives. But if that person's fuck up spills into my life, they are infringing on my liberties. If some financial firm decides to take a gamble and loses, why should I suffer? If some jackass is driving drunk, (because if you were consistent you'd believe people should be allowed to drive drunk on the grounds that government doesn't need to get involved except to educate) and he hits me or someone I care about and they die or are seriously injured - than how is that fair? How is it worth it in the name of freedom? Doesn't it makes sense to draw a line in the sand that prevents this nonsense?

Sure, people dont jump out of planes - but if you were given the choice of collecting $1 million dollars at the expense of a strangers pain, suffering or death... how many people do you think would take the money(lol isn't that a movie)? We as a society should recognize that freedom is great but at the same time we should also be wary that there are a lot of choices that effect too many people to simply hope everybody does the right thing.
^^^ If someone drives drunk, knowing what we know about driving drunk, we need the police to intervene. If one decides to get drunk in the privacy of one's own home, the government has no business to break the door down and throw the drunk in jail.The government exists to protect citizen's rights, not destroy them. Based upon the posts of your's that I've read, you are a statist. So, as as statist, you must be aware of the part the Nannie State played in the housing crash, right? I mean, everyone has the right to own a house, do they not? :blsmoke:
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
The housing sector played it's role, but obviously derivatives played thier part - I wont dispute that. Mostly the housing example was just a rebuttle to the inevitable "fannie and freddie did it!" argument used to pin blame on the government. You only solidify my point by bringing up derivatives anyway, as they were in dire need of regulation leading up to the financial reform act and some argue didn't go far enough in regulating them; Warren Buffet, one of the undisputed "smart guys" on derivatives is one of those people(I dont know enough about the sector or it's regulations to really form a solid opinion myself on whether more regulation is needed, however)...
I agree there has to be some regulation, but why not just go back to the gold standard? The system would be mostly self regulating then. Gold didn't get to be the world currency for thousands of years just because it is pretty. It got that way because it worked.


Education is an important tool but if that's all that was needed than you wouldn't have people using despite their undeniable knowledge of the consequences(having been taught all about drug use in school, and then living the reality they still choose to use?).
You can't rape the willing.

Sure, give people the liberty to fuck up their lives. But if that person's fuck up spills into my life, they are infringing on my liberties. If some financial firm decides to take a gamble and loses, why should I suffer? If some jackass is driving drunk, (because if you were consistent you'd believe people should be allowed to drive drunk on the grounds that government doesn't need to get involved except to educate) and he hits me or someone I care about and they die or are seriously injured - than how is that fair? How is it worth it in the name of freedom? Doesn't it makes sense to draw a line in the sand that prevents this nonsense?
If there is no victim then there is no crime IMO. Drunk driving is a terrible thing to do, I have been guilty of it myself when I was younger probably hundreds of times ( I used to party ALOT). I never hurt anyone, I did however manage to hurt my own car, my own garage and myself a few times, I eventually learned, the hard way. Perhaps you think I should have been incarcerated for life? I have a sibling that probably drives drunk a majority of their waking moments, only had one DUI so far in 30+ years. Its not really the act that gets you the trouble, its mostly just getting caught doing it. If a cop pulls you over and you have been drinking and you are over the limit, you pay for a taxi ride home and you pay a fee to get your car out of impound. You hurt someone or damage property? Then you get the whole 9 yards. That is really the way it should be, instead of a catch all for huge fines and a record.


Sure, people dont jump out of planes - but if you were given the choice of collecting $1 million dollars at the expense of a strangers pain, suffering or death... how many people do you think would take the money(lol isn't that a movie)? We as a society should recognize that freedom is great but at the same time we should also be wary that there are a lot of choices that effect too many people to simply hope everybody does the right thing.
Lots of people will do the wrong thing, survival of the fittest, the world is overpopulated as it is.
 

mame

Well-Known Member
I agree there has to be some regulation, but why not just go back to the gold standard? The system would be mostly self regulating then. Gold didn't get to be the world currency for thousands of years just because it is pretty. It got that way because it worked.
IMO the gold standard doesn't really achieve any extra stability for a couple reasons, I'm sure there are more but the two I'm pretty solid on are:

1) the gold standard ties our currencies worth to a commodity subject to speculation and other undesirable market forces when searching for stability in a currency. What if, for example, a massive gold mine is found - leading to a huge inflow of supplies and by extension leading to decreased gold prices? The currency would then be worth less too right? I mean, the real cost of gold around 1976-77 or so was the lowest gold has been in recent times and by 1980 we had gold prices higher than at any other time in history. Obviously the real cost of gold dropped pretty sharply the next few years and stayed near the same for two decades but it's been ticking up since... do you really want to subject the dollar to these fluctuations?

2) part of why the Great Depression was so bad was that the worlds central banks were limited on their options in terms of monetary policy. They utterly failed to fight the deflationary spiral that plagued the 30's because they had to back the dollar with gold. The depression lasted much longer and was much deeper than it would have been if our currency was fiat, as it is now(which btw by the end of the depression most currencies changed to only partially be backed by gold for greater flexibility and eventually as you know modern currency became 100% fiat) . I actually read a paper written by none other than Ben Bernanke on the gold standard and central banking that was pretty interesting, I'll see if I can find it again.

You can't rape the willing.
Fair enough.

If there is no victim then there is no crime IMO. Drunk driving is a terrible thing to do, I have been guilty of it myself when I was younger probably hundreds of times ( I used to party ALOT). I never hurt anyone, I did however manage to hurt my own car, my own garage and myself a few times, I eventually learned, the hard way. Perhaps you think I should have been incarcerated for life? I have a sibling that probably drives drunk a majority of their waking moments, only had one DUI so far in 30+ years. Its not really the act that gets you the trouble, its mostly just getting caught doing it. If a cop pulls you over and you have been drinking and you are over the limit, you pay for a taxi ride home and you pay a fee to get your car out of impound. You hurt someone or damage property? Then you get the whole 9 yards. That is really the way it should be, instead of a catch all for huge fines and a record.
I'm glad you and others manage fine driving drunk but to me it's the risk to others involved that justifies the law. I wont look down on you, as I know plenty of people with the same kind of stories but I also remember a handful of drunk driving deaths involving people at my old high school far too often in just the short time frame I spent there... just sayin'. The risk to others in society is, to me, what justifies most laws and regulations in place.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
IMO the gold standard doesn't really achieve any extra stability for a couple reasons, I'm sure there are more but the two I'm pretty solid on are:

1) the gold standard ties our currencies worth to a commodity subject to speculation and other undesirable market forces when searching for stability in a currency. What if, for example, a massive gold mine is found - leading to a huge inflow of supplies and by extension leading to decreased gold prices? The currency would then be worth less too right? I mean, the real cost of gold around 1976-77 or so was the lowest gold has been in recent times and by 1980 we had gold prices higher than at any other time in history. Obviously the real cost of gold dropped pretty sharply the next few years and stayed near the same for two decades but it's been ticking up since... do you really want to subject the dollar to these fluctuations?

Mame, the price of gold is CONSTANT!! It is the Barometer of the health of all currencies in the world, all currencies are denominated in Gold and all revolve around the value of GOLD. 1/3rd of all the GOLD ever mined is held by a few central banks. Central banks wouldn't hold gold if it wasn't the most stable asset in the entire world, I mean why not hold Rhodium or Platinum instead? Why would the USA have 8,000 tons of this shit if it weren't the ultimate money?

2) part of why the Great Depression was so bad was that the worlds central banks were limited on their options in terms of monetary policy. They utterly failed to fight the deflationary spiral that plagued the 30's because they had to back the dollar with gold. The depression lasted much longer and was much deeper than it would have been if our currency was fiat, as it is now(which btw by the end of the depression most currencies changed to only partially be backed by gold for greater flexibility and eventually as you know modern currency became 100% fiat) . I actually read a paper written by none other than Ben Bernanke on the gold standard and central banking that was pretty interesting, I'll see if I can find it again.
Sorry dude, the WHOLE WORLD was on the gold standard until 1971. The US had the reserve currency, defacto gold standard for everyone since you could exchange dollars for gold directly from the US Treasury. Paper has been proven to not work many many many times, in fact all the time, paper never lasts.

They have to mine the sea for gold now, there are no new gold discoveries, the world has been checked twice.

The Paper wasn't written by Ben Bernanke it was Written By Alan Greenspan....Gold and Economic freedom .........http://www.constitution.org/mon/greenspan_gold.htm


I'm glad you and others manage fine driving drunk but to me it's the risk to others involved that justifies the law. I wont look down on you, as I know plenty of people with the same kind of stories but I also remember a handful of drunk driving deaths involving people at my old high school far too often in just the short time frame I spent there... just sayin'. The risk to others in society is, to me, what justifies most laws and regulations in place.
You can't mitigate risk with rules that are broken by mere choices. Those kids you went to high school with, they got hurt right? Was there a law against drunk driving at the time? the law didn't save them did it? You will never live a life without risk, no matter how much you beg for it.
 
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