Led Users Unite!
- Thread starter project fuoro
- Start date
meharmon
Member
Bah, AA has been all about the haterade in his posts.
Although very technical, it hasn't added much of relevance to the conversation, aside from we've already been through, and I don't trust the tone. The tech behind LEDs can and should be researched on your own, but these discussions of heat vs. power etc, have all been hashed through before, and the different manufacturers all have excellent PDFs displaying temperature/power/light so let Google be your guide if you want to know specifics on name brand diodes. A simple comparison of the 350mA vs 700mA can answer efficiency questions, and penetration has more to do with lens angle than output (see patent referenced below). But naturally more light comes from 3W capable chips, so given the same lens angle those will outperform, as seen in stoneyluv's great comparison pic a few pages back. Any discussion of misrepresenting wattage has also been soundly discussed a few months back.
SJ is also on the haterade. OG has been sipping, too.
To answer the person who asked, white LEDs have a strong peak in blue (usually ~450-460), with a hump in the green/yellow range, so they definitely help, not to mention putting out much more light per watt than their blue only counterparts. Someone also mentioned orange being crap, I would refer to patent 6921182 among others, but there is a peak at about 610nm which corresponds to caretenoids or something. We all know or should know the wavelengths used/desired by this point or you havn't bothered to respect the thread by reading it, although I don't blame anyone too much because of the size, just look for posts by dunit (experience/knowledge in LED field and 2 great journaled grows), jdizzle (who doesn't always know, but doesn't spout garbage, and once he finds out, he repeats it verbatim thus spreading correct and useful knowledge [on the whole]), HudsonValley82 and kush groove also added to the discussion back when, and kush's success (and others) with blackstar should cut naysayers short. For the Blackstar using Cree diodes question, I believe the white ones are Cree, and from previous dismantling, the blackstar has two 630mA drivers. Any discussion about heatsinks, thermal efficiency, yada yada, has all been gone over in a much more readable format than the pile of pages stacked in the last month or more, thanks to dunit especially for sharing the info first. On a side note, the flat aluminum heatsink in BS240 can be augmented with scrap heat-sinks from old projection TVs or other electronics and some Arctic Silver, if so desired. One of these days someone should bring together the no nonsense info we need from this thread and start a sticky so we don't have to add a couple hundred pages every few months asking the same questions.
p.s. If you have bad knees GTFO sitting (?) in front of the computer and go for a walk. Old dogs need new tricks.
Although very technical, it hasn't added much of relevance to the conversation, aside from we've already been through, and I don't trust the tone. The tech behind LEDs can and should be researched on your own, but these discussions of heat vs. power etc, have all been hashed through before, and the different manufacturers all have excellent PDFs displaying temperature/power/light so let Google be your guide if you want to know specifics on name brand diodes. A simple comparison of the 350mA vs 700mA can answer efficiency questions, and penetration has more to do with lens angle than output (see patent referenced below). But naturally more light comes from 3W capable chips, so given the same lens angle those will outperform, as seen in stoneyluv's great comparison pic a few pages back. Any discussion of misrepresenting wattage has also been soundly discussed a few months back.SJ is also on the haterade. OG has been sipping, too.
To answer the person who asked, white LEDs have a strong peak in blue (usually ~450-460), with a hump in the green/yellow range, so they definitely help, not to mention putting out much more light per watt than their blue only counterparts. Someone also mentioned orange being crap, I would refer to patent 6921182 among others, but there is a peak at about 610nm which corresponds to caretenoids or something. We all know or should know the wavelengths used/desired by this point or you havn't bothered to respect the thread by reading it, although I don't blame anyone too much because of the size, just look for posts by dunit (experience/knowledge in LED field and 2 great journaled grows), jdizzle (who doesn't always know, but doesn't spout garbage, and once he finds out, he repeats it verbatim thus spreading correct and useful knowledge [on the whole]), HudsonValley82 and kush groove also added to the discussion back when, and kush's success (and others) with blackstar should cut naysayers short. For the Blackstar using Cree diodes question, I believe the white ones are Cree, and from previous dismantling, the blackstar has two 630mA drivers. Any discussion about heatsinks, thermal efficiency, yada yada, has all been gone over in a much more readable format than the pile of pages stacked in the last month or more, thanks to dunit especially for sharing the info first. On a side note, the flat aluminum heatsink in BS240 can be augmented with scrap heat-sinks from old projection TVs or other electronics and some Arctic Silver, if so desired. One of these days someone should bring together the no nonsense info we need from this thread and start a sticky so we don't have to add a couple hundred pages every few months asking the same questions.
p.s. If you have bad knees GTFO sitting (?) in front of the computer and go for a walk. Old dogs need new tricks.
maxpesh
Active Member
This thread has got ridiculous with all the bullshit and arguments. Let's all just post pics of grows with details of LED used, weeks of flowering or vegging ,true watts used, final dry weigh in. Simple, no more arguments whether leds work or not, just good old fashioned "proof is in the pudding"
solarguy
Active Member
here are a bunch of pics from all different grows with different lights! check out my grow in my signature, testing out some new LED bars....revolutionary shit
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660nm420
Active Member
Seriously!! Over a year ago this thread helped me to "see the light." Now it mostly sucks. I think if I was just deciding to go to LED and read all this mindless pointless bickering I would just trust all the hydo shop guys that LED sucks and are a waste of money. Discussion is a very good thing but at a point going around in circles gets you nowhere fast and if LED USERS UNITE is working toward spreading the truth then the my watts are more than your watts BS does a disservice to the mission of spreading awareness and factual information. I have experimented with different brands and what I'm figuring out is that although not all LEDs are equal, they all seem to work. Do some work better? Well obviously. Could the 1w exceed 3w in some ways. Yeah it's possible. Guess it depends on the way the manufacture manufactures it and on how the user uses it, but I know I don't find this thread nearly as helpful as I did over 3 months ago. Pics of harvey coming soon.
dunit
Active Member
I've been working on a "read only" webpage to try and do something like this. Basically just post actual grows THAT GO TO COMPLETION with different lights to save people hundreds of pages of reading (especially on journals that never finish) when they're trying to make decisions. I think hi-def pics would be a nice touch too. Right now I've only grown with one light so my page lacks depth but looks like I have two other manufacturers interested in letting me try theirs out so hopefully I can provide some useful comparisons but definately a few months away from being useful.
My plan is to pick a very common medium (probably pro mix) common nutes (probably GH) and a common strain (hoping to have a good yielder) and grow with different manufacturers.
Any constructive suggestions are welcome.
You should get a hold of Irishboy as he could add several completed LED grows to your project. I'd also try and contact SettingSun (not sure if hes on this site). There were a bunch of growers over at 420mag.com that had several completed LED grows each, you should have a much easier time finding completed LED grows over there than here (people are starting to switch from there to here because of sponsor issues or something). I'll try and find my bookmarks of them and get them to you.
Spots are from xtreme gardening calcarb spray (i didnt do it right, and the plants dripped on themselves, the stuff is harmless just co2 and calcium really)View attachment 1602431View attachment 1602433View attachment 1602436View attachment 1602437View attachment 1602439View attachment 1602442View attachment 1602443View attachment 1602445
astroastro
Active Member
Because the LED itself is inherently a semiconductor, it's performance (efficiency, radiant power, etc.) and service life is directly related how cool the LED semiconductor die itself is operated at. NO, you can't really tell how hot the die is by feeling the fixture or cabinet or even the heatsink. LED's are less efficient at producing light than HID- the LED efficiency comes about because the light that is produced is usable by the plant, whereas a significant portion of both the primary HID technologies, MH and HPS, is not, it is wasted. It is therefore be possible to use a lot less energy to produce an equivalent amount photosynthetically active light with LED.
A note about cooling and why the large 1mm^2 dies produce a lot more light and run a lot better than the small chips a lot of these sellers are using- I will try and keep this short. Thermal management for a semiconductor, any semiconductor, is typically an exercise in taking the heat generated at the semiconductor junction and spreading it out over successively larger surface areas until you eventually dump the heat into the air. For the LED fixtures you see out there, you have the die (which is whatever size it is, more on that later) mounted on a small sub-PCB, spreading the die heat out to this larger area, and then you either a larger PCB an a heat sink or perhaps just a heat sink which spreads this heat out over an even larger surface area, which is ventilated with fans. It's all about surface area.
So- back to the die size and why it matters. You take these small little chip LED's a lot of these sellers are using, let's say (for example) they are 20 x 20 mil = 400mil^2 surface area. Then you take a true power die, most of which are going to be about 40 x 40 mil = 1600mil^2. Which one can you imagine it is possible to extract more heat from- a surface area 400mil^2, or 1600mil^2? If you accept my 'haterade' premise that LED performance is intimately tied to the thermal performance of the cooling system, which one is going to perform better regardless of the quality of the cooling system behind it? Which one will you be able to push more current thru and get more usable light out of while simultaneously achieving a long service life?
astroastro
Active Member
Well- the best one would be the one that uses the largest dies for the simple fact that it is easier to extract heat out the increased surface area of the die- thereby getting much better relative performance from the semiconductor. The thing about 'Watt' ratings and LED's is that the Watt rating for any LED die is pretty much whatever you make it to be- therefore it is a useless metric unless you know all the variables that went into the initial design.
From an engineering standpoint, the Watt rating is the maximum amount of power you can shove thru the die and meet your anticipated radiant output power and lifetime objectives. Ultimately, this depends on the cooling system. This is why the Spectra(?) guy is running his '3W' dies at less than 2W. This is probably the limit to which his cooling system will extract heat and still meet his serviceable lifetime expectations, whatever they are. Because he is using the big 1mm^2 boys, he is getting a lot more actual light out than the guys using the small chips in an array- but his solution costs more. It depends what your objectives are- if you are in it for the long run then pay for the quality as it will pay itself of several times over, if not, then roll the dice and buy a Chinese cheapie.
From a marketing/ selling standpoint, the Watt rating is simply a number that you hope will generate more purchases in the American 'more is better' mindset. You can judge for yourself which side of the fence most of these LED sellers are on.
Hey ya'll.. new here! I have a question about LEDs. What about the 360w extreme led.. http://www.advancedledlights.com/products/NEW-%2d-360w-Extreme-Flower-LED-%2d-3w-USA-LEDs-%2d-11-Wavelengths.html
From what I've researched it seems the most legit per dollar. ...3w leds, cree leds, 11 wavelengths, 864w equivalent.
What do you guys think? Anything that beats that? I'd like to know because i'm buying one soon.
From what I've researched it seems the most legit per dollar. ...3w leds, cree leds, 11 wavelengths, 864w equivalent.
What do you guys think? Anything that beats that? I'd like to know because i'm buying one soon.
There are a couple guys here that use Advanced LEDs but you may want to check out 420 mag as the company is now a sponsor. Grows are starting to show up there with good results.
astroastro
Active Member
It is impossible to know unless you know which make and series of LED is in there and what die temp they are running them at. The same 1W die run at the same 1W power level will have less radiant output power when operated with a less efficient cooling system at subsequently higher temps. This is all in the LED die specification sheets.
My point would be, without getting too far into the weeds with the technical stuff, is that we would all know what was working, what was not, and what we needed more of if the sellers would post actual photometric, or spectral data, on their lights. But they don't do this. So we sit and go round and round and they control the conversation because they have us all this Watt thing, which, when you are dealing with LED technology, totally irrelevant to how the fixture actually performs. The HID guys do this for us, as does nearly every other technical light application.
astroastro
Active Member
I went to the website. Give it a try, it may work out for you, but I got to tell you, below is first four marketing 'bullet points' in their advertising;
Total Power Consumption: 360w
Runs Cool and Saves Electricity.
Just plug in and grow, no ballasts or high wattage cooling necessary.
LED Wattage: 864w
Anybody else confused about what 'Watts' the thing really is? Watts to the LED industry has become what the 'lumen' is to the HID industry, an entirely useless marketing term. Please post the photometric data.
oceangreen
Well-Known Member
Astro,
Your are an amazing contributer to this thread.
Thank You
Your are an amazing contributer to this thread.
Thank You
puffenuff
Well-Known Member
You'll be impressed with the advanced led lights. I'm using their stuff and the results are outstanding. Give them a call and their customer service will help you with any questions. I highly recommend advanced.
milehighman22
Member
so guys i just bought a 400w led light at my local hydro store for $475
how much is this going to cost me a month in electricity?
how much is this going to cost me a month in electricity?
Hudsonvalley82
Well-Known Member
Veg or Flower? and what schedule, plus I am assuming at that price that the 400W is the max rating and the unit is only pulling 230-240 watts, also, what is your KwH rate?
1 (30 day)Month Veg at 240W draw doing 18/6 = 129.6 KW used
2 (60 Day)Month Flower at 240W draw doing 12/12 = 172.8 KW used
without knowing your KwH rate I can't go much further, but by looking at that usage, I can tell you that it won't be much of a jump at all...MAYBE 20-30 bucks in a expensive territory per month MAX. Probably closer to the 20 side
1 (30 day)Month Veg at 240W draw doing 18/6 = 129.6 KW used
2 (60 Day)Month Flower at 240W draw doing 12/12 = 172.8 KW used
without knowing your KwH rate I can't go much further, but by looking at that usage, I can tell you that it won't be much of a jump at all...MAYBE 20-30 bucks in a expensive territory per month MAX. Probably closer to the 20 side