Which Dispensaries Should I Take My Overages to?

[LordWinter]

^^^ Perfect... I'l take the bait & have this conversation... seeing that you took the time to give better representation of your position.


For starters... we both agree that weed/medical marijuana is not a harm... never has & won't ever be. My point of contention, that you are dismissing, is that the freedoms you enjoy now, under the umbrage of medical marijuana laws, is at the cost of freedom to others... quite literally, jailed. We aren't discussing crack in the elementary schools... we as educated adults, recognize the 'War on Drugs' for the irrationality that it really is. We all seemingly agree here... just w/o recognition of the history that got us the to present day.

The laws, as discussed in theory, is something that is mutable & dynamic... changing & altering as the demands & needs of a society change. This is how it is with marijuana... recognizing the irrational fears that instigated it, the prejudice under which it was executed & the inevitable recognition (by otherwise rational adults) that the whole endeavor was misguided & wrong.

What you have now is the culmination of a number of factors... but the primary impetus of MMj is to in fact decriminalize & ultimately to legalize. With the underlying agreement that the War on Drugs, in particular, the demonizing of marijuana, was/is wrong.

I make the moral distinction when it comes to ruining a person's life... and those of their family members... and the community & country by extension... a wrong... an evil... that is perpetuated under the existing laws. I do believe in Civil Disobedience.

It is disrespectful & ungrateful & presumptuous & short sighted of you to make moralistic judgments upon people... without any real regard to the consequence of such irresponsible dribble... attitudes like yours allow for the continuation of these laws... that ruin the lives of our peoples, family & society.

The evil isn't weed... the evil is deep within ourselves. And you are putting it on display.

Yes, we do agree that weed is not a harm. What you don't realize, however, is that I'm not dismissing your point, I'm approaching it from a different angle. Just because I'm learning to grow doesn't mean I don't know the history. I just believe that, at this stage, it's time for us as a community to stop pushing in the states that have MMJ laws and work within them. Why do I think it is time for this? I believe it is time for this because we have more than 1/4 of the union with MMJ laws yet we still suffer under the Feds because they won't recognize our rights, as given to us by our respective states. It's time to step up the fight, not make ourselves look like petulant children. THAT is how we pay our respects to the people who sacrificed so much to get us where we are now. You believe in Civil Disobedience, so do I. I also believe in picking my fights. You see, I understand the slimy little bastards that write our laws. I understand how they think. I understand how they work. I understand what makes them tick. I hate them for it. I grew up around the gutless weasels and their ass-kissing little patsies. Yeah, patsies. That's exactly what they are... some stupid little whipping-boy intern that takes the blame when shit goes south. They are leeches who want nothing more than to fatten their pockets and those of the lobbyists who contribute so much to the campaigns. The voters are barely a consideration until we get pissed off and people start losing elections. That's the only time we're acknowledged. You and I aren't that different in how we view the government and laws, MI. I just believe in going about things a different way.

Theoretical law... now I understand how we came to this point. I'm not talking about theoretical law here. If you look back at my posts in this thread, you'll see that I've been talking about this from the viewpoint of a prosecutor. I know the mindset, I helped my best friend study a lot while he got his law degree. We have an adversarial justice system. It is the job of the prosecuting attorney to interpret the law as narrowly as possible. It's all about the convictions for them. Our rights are only a consideration when it comes into conflict with the constitution, and even then only barely so these days. So, no matter what moralistic standpoint you or I take, THEY are gonna go straight for the throat.

Morals? How much moral high ground can someone claim when they tell someone that it is okay to sell to dispensaries when they fall under grey areas at best, areas that only a State Supreme Court Justice can give final say on? Are you going to support a man's kids if you give him advice that gets him sent to prison? You're worried about someone's life being ruined, yet you advocate methods that could lead someone into a test case for dispensaries that could bankrupt them. What are you going to do when that stain is on your hands? Blame the law? They may not have ever gone to the dispensary had it not been for your advice, in fact, let's say they didn't even know a dispensary was close by or would even buy from them. What I don't get most of all, and would love to have answered is: How do you justify criticizing caregivers who want to sell or do sell to their patients when you supply dispensaries with their weed? Who do you honestly think the dispensary is selling their pot to? Dispensaries are charging up to $400/oz, yet caregivers get crucified here for mentioning a sale for even half that. Why? What justification could you possibly have for such a double standard?

No, you can criticize my words of caution all you want, but it's not going to take the truth out of them. I can agree to disagree with YOU, though, because you chose to take this back to a civil and intellectual level. Thank you for that.

 

[Buddy Ganga]

Why do you people always have to try play the FED card ? It's like you think you can use them like the boogie man or something.
Seriously man. It's a moot point since everything is illegal under the Fed.
The same information they can get from a clinic, they can get from any legal caregivers grow op.
(we are to keep our legal paper work visible, such paper work includes our patients paper work as well as our own.)

And the funny part about your walmart comment is in my area they are trying to zone clinics the same, so they would be forced to rent in the same type of commercial locations. So it's my local government is trying to force clinic's into such open locations, not me or my friends. We like the small clinic set ups we have.






How do you explain transfers of clones and plants between caregivers and patients ?

 

[LordWinter]

[QUOTEWhy do you people always have to try play the FED card ? It's like you think you can use them like the boogie man or something.][/QUOTE]

Buddy, there is no card to be played because this is not a fucking game, the Feds ARE the boogeyman as far as we're concerned. And this boogeyman is real. It's more likely to be the DEA beating down your door for selling to a dispensary than it is the state or the county unless you're selling out the backdoor as well.

Seriously man. It's a moot point since everything is illegal under the Fed.
The same information they can get from a clinic, they can get from any legal caregivers grow op.
(we are to keep our legal paper work visible, such paper work includes our patients paper work as well as our own.)

The point isn't moot, Buddy. Federal Illegality has been my point since you and me locked horns for the first time. You just don't see it. Every time you sell to a dispensary you leave a trail. When the DEA comes for the dispensary owner... who's records are they going to find? Yours, if you sold to them.

You're going to want to know how this differs in my view of things, and I'll be happy to tell you. It's simple, really. There's an executive order in place that instructs the feds to leave alone anyone in a med state they find to be in compliance with state law. I can guarantee you with 99.9% certainty that if you are flirting with the grey areas in our law and you get a visit from the Feds, they're not going to give you a pass. Can I guarantee that you won't go to jail even if you ARE in compliance... hell no, we're talking about the Feds. I can guarantee you that your chances are infinitely better, though.

At the state level, however, everything changes dramatically. If you are in compliance with the law, you're protected. If you want to change the law and can afford the legal fight, get an attorney and sue... go on the offensive, man. Don't get arrested and let them force you to defend yourself while everything is on the line.

The fact is, I don't realistically expect people to not make some extra money on "overages". I expect that I will at some point. The difference is, when and if I choose to do so, it will be with a FULL UNDERSTANDING of the risk I'm taking, and the decision and responsibility will be mine and mine alone. No one will influence me in this decision. I can guarantee you one thing, though, no meds ever grown by me will find their way into a dispensary. This hypocritical talk of free meds to patients as justification for selling to dispensaries is sickening. It's wrong for me to charge a patient $150 to $200/oz for meds that I grow, but a dispensary can charge that same patient up to twice that amount? And you don't see anything wrong with this? I'd sooner dump my entire grow into an incinerator than sell to someone who's going to charge almost $400/oz for something I take grief for asking $200 for.

This isn't the case on here. Everyone is screaming "Give patients free meds by making money on your overages.", but you forget that overages are illegal quantities of the medication that you can't hold onto. If you could have overages, what's the point in setting a limit?

You guys don't strike me as mean spirited, yet you say these things and don't warn people of the consequences, then fight with those who do. Surely you wouldn't sleep soundly if you knew that someone you referred to a dispensary got busted as a result of the dispensary getting taken down?

Think about it for a while before you answer. As for me, I'm going to spend some time with my family. Peace!

 

[MIway]

LW~ there are problems with your logic... so much so, that I cannot possible find ground to agree with you, but I truly do enjoy provoking thought & having debate. At the core, I am critical... I believe it is our responsibility to challenge... to always, always, always challenge... and depending upon how that is done... it is the very core of progression.

My core problem with your arguments is that you based your initial position on the premise that Laws are all important, all binding. This simply is a flawed assumption. With the primacy of laws, then your very grievance against the Fed's suppression of State's rights holds no weight. After all, the Fed is the ultimate law in our country, under the Courts interpretations of the Constitution... which clearly gives them grounds to regulate the States... varying SC interpretations to this effect, take your pick, Commerce for one. Under this line of thinking, we should all submit... and all those that do not... are criminals that deserve jail time. That includes the 'patients' you currently use in defense of your position. This just isn't logical... and I'm sure you are capable of seeing this.

You say you believe in CD... well that assumes that laws can & are unjust... immoral... just wrong. So much so, that we should non-violently break these laws in protest. This doesn't involve acquiescing.



There are problems with what you state out loud. It truly does concern me. It isn't the bad guys vs the good guys here... we are all the 'good guys'. Those that are trying to jail us are the 'bad guys'.

Commerce is one (very big) way to legitimize this industry... this attitude... this plant. And those that are pushing the boundaries of the law are the ones that are actively carrying the torch for progression... whatever you might assign their motivations towards. In truth, you don't know them... and I do know some of them. Some have pretty lofty ideals that they are trying to forward... for the betterment of us all.

And ultimately, the truth of the matter is that 95%+ of us take umbrage under the MMj laws... very, very, very few of us are truly, truly, truly sick... and I'm talking on the level of MS, AIDS, PTSD & Cancer... these people shouldn't be charged a dime for 'medications'... which is just weed. They don't deserve to be further transgressed upon by anyone... period. The system of 'for profit' capitalism is what you are really upset at, not the people.

We do live in a system that has many woes... no doubt... and the very sick, the very poor, those without access & voices & resources... that is utterly depressing. But the vast majority of the money that is pumping through this industry, isn't about them... it's about the other 95%+ of us that are taking shelter.

AND WHAT I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH... is blanket statements about how any of these people deserve to be put into jail. That raises a 'how fucking dare you' response... as you can see.

 

[MIway]

And I do want to especially respond to the patient/caregiver/dispensary claims of irresponsible advocacy...


The law is, as best it could get passed... or so the gamble went. The language is rather specific... leaving rather specific leads (holes) to further progress... compromised at it might be. Ultimately, we all want for there to be safe access to the highest in quality of product, at the lowest in possible cost... right? We would like assurances that the product is legit, clean & effective. All of this comes within the industry as we progress, which necessarily means bringing it out of the closet/basement & into the economically viable market. With legitimation comes industry standards & practices... ones that we have the opportunity to shape & influence.

The dispensary model is one that allows for this to take place... an open marketplace, where hopefully, availability & quality increase... this is a goal at least. This model also allows for a cottage industry to exist, where mom&pop growers can marketplace their higher-end boutique product... to simultaneously compete against larger, commercial operations... to force them to step up the game. A dispensary model can promote such a burgeoning industry... to help us all. It is possible, assuming the characters & special interest don't muck it all up for everyone... as they are currently doing in CO... I know first hand.

I feel your fears & concerns are misguided & misplaced, leading to irrational statements. We are all frustrated, no doubt.

But, the current law does not specifically prohibit nor prevent a dispensary model... and it even allows, explicitly, for compensation. The interpretation that allows for dispensaries is on more solid legal interpretation than the no dispensary at all interpretation.

Shouldn't you be arguing for dispensaries? For progression? For increased availability? For better quality? For price competition? For a possible future in this industry? For protection & safety? For gods sake???

 

[Buddy Ganga]

Boogie man Winter Boogie man.

I noticed in all of that you failed to comment on the caregivers paper work. (the fed connection)
It's the same paper trail you claim they can get from any clinic.

The difference is, my patients do not pay so there is nothing connecting them to "questionable transfers".
"Pay me to grow caregivers" would be in the same situation with the feds you claim others should be weary of.

And why not discuss the legality of clone/plant transfers ?
How is a visiting patient able to get meds if all transfers are illegal if they are not your assigned caregiver ?
Because that blows a huge hole in your theory.

Edit to add: About us butting heads, that's because you turned into a childish douche while trying to spin your shit.
Remember my last post to you in that thread ? Here it is, so there is no confusion about it.

As so as someone says "So what your saying is" they become irrelevant.
As soon as someone comments about someone's parents they become irrelevant.
As soon as someone connects "arguing with someones justifications" with "being against someones rights", they become irrelevant.
As soon as their end of the conversation starts avoiding questions and replying with childish bullshit, they become irrelevant.
As soon as someone has to "sound bite" your posts from other conversations, they become irrelevant.

 

[guy incognito]

Hey Winter, Go fuck yourself troll. Over 160 clinics in the state proves your are full of shit.

I guess 627 murders in 2009 proves murder is legal also. People clearly can't do illegal things.

 

[Buddy Ganga]

I guess 627 murders in 2009 proves murder is legal also. People clearly can't do illegal things.

Come on man, how many of those murders went free ?
How many of those murders were witnessed by police officers ?
How many of those murders did police have previous knowledge of ?

 

[guy incognito]

If national data is representative of what happens with michigan crime then over 1/3 of those murders went unsolved. That's not the point though. He claims that 160 open dispensaries proves it is legal. It doesn't prove anything other than 160 people decided to open dispensaries and havent been arrested yet. I know of several dispensaries that were raided and the operators were arrested. Simply stating that 160 remain in operation proves that they are legal is flawed logic.

 

[Buddy Ganga]

Then why try and regulate illegal business's by passing bill's rather then signing warrants ?

One of my best friends was a partner in a clinic and left due to the illegal activities others were involving the place in.
I spent many hours with him and his lawyers and in front of city and county officials. If there was a legitimate way to close them down they would.

Since they can't, they are simply trying to over regulate them out of business.

 

[guy incognito]

Then why try and regulate illegal business's by passing bill's rather then signing warrants ?

One of my best friends was a partner in a clinic and left due to the illegal activities others were involving the place in.
I spent many hours with him and his lawyers and in front of city and county officials. If there was a legitimate way to close them down they would.

Since they can't, they are simply trying to over regulate them out of business.

They seem to be doing in oakland county. I was not present during the raids or involved in any dispensary so I don't know what other illegal activity they were doing, but they are certainly getting shut down. I think it's a matter of resources. They are going to come in and bust up a disp operating in detroit? How? They don't have enough cops or money in detroit to stop REAL crime they are fully aware of, like murder, rape, and robbery. The city doesn't even have the resources to replace traffic lights that burn out. Shutting down a dispensary simply isn't a high priority or a good use of their limited resources.

 

[pharmacoping]

Lord Winter-

Tops to ya!. If you're near sanilac county, shout at me. these bean brawlers dont know about the last few decades of injustices suffered by a population who actually wore pants that fit them.

 

[TDM]

One opened in Gaylord $18G, (quality good, good selection over priced IMO)

 

[TDM]

The Alcona police just closed down Utilized Space, a marijuna compassion club as a "Public Nusiance" last week, court hearing coming up.

 

[dababydroman]

how can ya'll, in legal states, be so damn worried about the law. just shut up and grow. as long as you find good loyal patients why should it really matter how many you have?
what people dont know, wont hurt YOU.

 

[hic]

So yea after reading the 4 pages I am wondering if there are any clubs that do not take personal info?

 

[bob harris]

This coming from the guy who used his fourth post EVER, to try and devolve this into a free-for-all.

Yep, I guess the law that THE PEOPLE VOTED IN is full of shit too since it doesn't even mention a dispensary. Figure out how to read the law before you try to take me to school on it. I've been studying that shit since the day it got voted in.

Like any new law is was written vaguely....the loop holes will be adressed over time.

But i agree with lordWinter....too many assholes thinking cannabis is legal..it's not. Medicinal use was legalized, not growing for profit, not dispensary's, not getting the card from Dr. Feelgood for your painful hangnail.

The morons pushing the limits are going to make it tougher on everyone..Why can't people just be thankful and play the game without pushing it?

 

[hic]

Like any new law is was written vaguely....the loop holes will be adressed over time.

But i agree with lordWinter....too many assholes thinking cannabis is legal..it's not. Medicinal use was legalized, not growing for profit, not dispensary's, not getting the card from Dr. Feelgood for your painful hangnail.

The morons pushing the limits are going to make it tougher on everyone..Why can't people just be thankful and play the game without pushing it?

Because they are taught that competition is a good thing in all that goes with life. It is ever so sad and all too often that bad eggs ruin shit. Competition is useless, THEY will not know their names from what they had. I will tell ya helping your brothers and sisters will get you more then a $200,000 mortgage ever will and can.

I feel ya all on turning a profit for that is how the world keeps spinning! Man does work man gets paid. But selling pot to a guy that lost his leg due to termites or something for $18 a gram is not justifiable. Again I can grow a half pound for $10 if I choose.

 

[jonnynobody]

Like any new law is was written vaguely....the loop holes will be adressed over time.

But i agree with lordWinter....too many assholes thinking cannabis is legal..it's not. Medicinal use was legalized, not growing for profit, not dispensary's, not getting the card from Dr. Feelgood for your painful hangnail.

The morons pushing the limits are going to make it tougher on everyone..Why can't people just be thankful and play the game without pushing it?

I couldn't agree more with you on that one. There are plenty of caregivers out there growing their own that patients could hookup with and buy from so the necessity for dispensaries is really not there. I'm a firm believer in capitalism but that law does not say a word about authorizing dispensaries so these do-gooder county prosecutors are going to continue to rape and pillage dispensary owners at will. I just don't see the need for dispensaries that overcharge out the wazoo when you can simply find a collective and hookup with a local caregiver. You get better prices and you are certain to stay within the bounds of the law. If people would stop trying to skirt the law by growing more than they're allowed, growing outdoors, and trafficking their overages illegally to dispensaries for a profit, the more legitimacy will be afforded to the movement.

 

[tomcatjones]

I couldn't agree more with you on that one. There are plenty of caregivers out there growing their own that patients could hookup with and buy from so the necessity for dispensaries is really not there. I'm a firm believer in capitalism but that law does not say a word about authorizing dispensaries so these do-gooder county prosecutors are going to continue to rape and pillage dispensary owners at will. I just don't see the need for dispensaries that overcharge out the wazoo when you can simply find a collective and hookup with a local caregiver. You get better prices and you are certain to stay within the bounds of the law. If people would stop trying to skirt the law by growing more than they're allowed, growing outdoors, and trafficking their overages illegally to dispensaries for a profit, the more legitimacy will be afforded to the movement.

you really don't understand how law really works do you??

do you have to have laws telling you how to act?? "authorize" as you said it.

we don't need a law telling us what can exist and there is no law saying it can't.
the dispensary and cg/pt models can co-exist and benefit everyone.

i will have 5 pts one day - and i plan to not only provide them with quality meds for good prices but also help out and donate to clubs and dispensaries alike.

ALSO NOTE: patient to patient tranfers are legal - if i'm a patient i may be compensated for my skills and services. clones, meds, time, labor.

why do i see people arguing about "selling" - not a single place i know of, not even dispensaries "sell"... it is a transfer and someone is receiving a good and the other is receiving compensation for creating that good.

WHY ARE YOU ARGUING ABOUT SIMPLE LOGIC AND LAW?