The Truth About Ron Paul - Part 2

Carthoris

Well-Known Member
Israel is our friend according to history this is fact, maybe you disagree with some thing they have done as you should(they have committed horrible atrocities) but why should we intervene at all in their affairs? Ron Paul is a non-interventionist. I guess you think we should intervene?
Israel is only our friend because we empower them to do whatever the hell they want. I don't think they particularly like us, we are more of a weapon.

I think Ron Paul would agree with Thomas Jefferson in regards to Israel, as well as the entire world.

Commerce with all nations, alliance with none, should be our motto. -Thomas Jefferson.
 

Carthoris

Well-Known Member
great NoDrama, here's another example why brain-less repetition of economic theory may make sense in classrooms and online forums, but let's take a close look at what you are saying...

you are saying that a way to lower admissions prices in colleges would be to devastate enrollment demand by making government mandated access to financing a thing of the past....

i mean, the numbers and graphs make sense...

but do you really want to use that manipulation of demand to make a point??

let's stop and think how great it would be for our economy if every college student taking government mandated (yet privately administered) student loans would stop receiving that aid, making college inaccessible for millions of students. millions left without finishing their college degrees, millions more on their way out of highschool who wouldn't get a chance to get an education so they need to get a job.... but with less education means less chance to find a job.....

so no job, no education for millions.... what to do with them??? make up fake wars so we can ship them off to die???????


the types of market corrections you say will take place would set this country so far back that by then college might as well be free by then....
A lot of people only take the government loans because it is the easiest path. If you aren't willing to pay your way through college, maybe you didn't have any reason to go in the first place? Let us be honest. There is not one person in the country who couldn't go to community college and pay their own way - only people who lack the motivation to do so.
 

Carthoris

Well-Known Member
and what happens when banks decide loaning money to go to college isn't profitable as gambling on the stock market?

The free market has spoken, so a generation of Americans won't be going to college! At what point does worshiping the market become insanity?
Stop pretending like the market wouldn't take care of that itself. Look at online colleges. They are already taking students. Why? It works around your schedule and its cheaper usually. So many people who can't afford to go to harvard or some fancy private college are taking out loans that they can't afford from the government so they can go there instead of going to a community college. Some are just getting outright free money. What would be wrong with them going to a community school?
 

Carthoris

Well-Known Member
college education is a waste for most people! If you don't go you'll be Bill Gates and Abraham Lincoln!



Go ahead and completely ignore the fact that people who go to college are more motivated on average than people who don't and would likely make more even without a college education. Or ignore the fact that your graph doesn't say who is even being counted. Does it count prisoners who are incarcerated, house wives, kids that are actually attending college and have 0 income, homeless people, people on welfare, people who don't want to work. Ignore that the unemployment rate is higher for lower earners so averaging out how much they make without taking that into account is impossible unless the results are only there to prove a point of the person making the graph.

You know what the graph shows if you more the starting age to 25? A much smaller gap. What happens if you start the chart at 18 and do it based on lifetime earning? Then put the people who go to college in the college categories as they generate 0 income and its because of college that they have 0 income. Then when you look at someone who is 18 making the average of 30k, and the 2 year degree is making 32k you realize that the difference is 2k and those 2 years of your life could of been spent making 60k and that it would take about 35 years for the 2 year degree holder to make back that money and the money spent on college. Then you have to account for the people who went to college and aren't doing the job they went to school for. You start to realize that there are a lot of people who wasted time and money going to college. When you account for the income loss and paying for school the first 4 years, the gap is much smaller and honest. This graph does none of that. Then you have to just stop and think.. no stupid people are going to go to college 4 or 8 years, they won't have the ability. Where as some very intelligent people that make good money don't ever go to college. Motivation is the key to success, not intelligence or education.

If we pretend like all those gaping flaws aren't there, then sure, the graph proves that going to college is always the right thing to do.
 

redivider

Well-Known Member
Go ahead and completely ignore the fact that people who go to college are more motivated on average than people who don't and would likely make more even without a college education. Or ignore the fact that your graph doesn't say who is even being counted. Does it count prisoners who are incarcerated, house wives, kids that are actually attending college and have 0 income, homeless people, people on welfare, people who don't want to work. Ignore that the unemployment rate is higher for lower earners so averaging out how much they make without taking that into account is impossible unless the results are only there to prove a point of the person making the graph.

You know what the graph shows if you more the starting age to 25? A much smaller gap. What happens if you start the chart at 18 and do it based on lifetime earning? Then put the people who go to college in the college categories as they generate 0 income and its because of college that they have 0 income. Then when you look at someone who is 18 making the average of 30k, and the 2 year degree is making 32k you realize that the difference is 2k and those 2 years of your life could of been spent making 60k and that it would take about 35 years for the 2 year degree holder to make back that money and the money spent on college. Then you have to account for the people who went to college and aren't doing the job they went to school for. You start to realize that there are a lot of people who wasted time and money going to college. When you account for the income loss and paying for school the first 4 years, the gap is much smaller and honest. This graph does none of that. Then you have to just stop and think.. no stupid people are going to go to college 4 or 8 years, they won't have the ability. Where as some very intelligent people that make good money don't ever go to college. Motivation is the key to success, not intelligence or education.

If we pretend like all those gaping flaws aren't there, then sure, the graph proves that going to college is always the right thing to do.
maybe if you removed the the blinders. you would know that all the 'gaps' are really your attempt to correct a trend that has been so solidly cemented as fact by the scientific community that you have to make up mathematical inaccuracies.

all of the 'gaps' would be considered unacceptable data manipulation by any serious researcher.

you just need to swallow this dose of reality:

A COLLEGE EDUCATION WILL LEAD TO A HIGHER PAYING CAREER, NO MATTER WHAT FIELD YOU ARE IN.

there were once high-paying jobs where you acquire the knowledge through work, and don't really need the degree. but those fields have all been 'outsourced' by companies b/c conservatives in the name of the free market decimated america's manufacturing sector through de-regulation.

i cannot believe there's actually a 'political ideology' that somehow perverts itself into convincing it's followers that a college education isn't worth it.

and community colleges don't really count into this whole education thing b/c most community colleges don't offer complete programs of advance science or math applications.

most programs in community college involve associates in nursing, computer technicians, clerical theory etc. not even bachelor's degrees, it's mostly certificates of completion or associate's degrees if you are lucky.

some schools around here don't even have entire programs. it's just random classwork and a list of 'equivalents' in other larger state or private colleges, so you can replace several credits and save money by taking the course in the community college, but the majority of your education and the university mentioned on the degree would be the larger institution....

and a college education can really load you with debt. that's why you need to have good grades, and play sports, so you can get a scholarship. that's what i did. :)

bachelor's of science in business. no debt. :)
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
i worked at the in-state college i went to. raised near $100,000 in my best year soliciting donations from the alumni. you know who were the stingiest people that gave the least? the incomplete degrees. i hated working that list.

for any argument that people want to present for college being a ripoff, i can easily counter it 10 times over by going to craigslist and pulling an ad that requires a college degree to do some $12 an hour job. hell, i missed out on a job pet sitting because i dropped out to work.
 

Parker

Well-Known Member
Go ahead and completely ignore the fact that people who go to college are more motivated on average than people who don't and would likely make more even without a college education. Or ignore the fact that your graph doesn't say who is even being counted. Does it count prisoners who are incarcerated, house wives, kids that are actually attending college and have 0 income, homeless people, people on welfare, people who don't want to work. Ignore that the unemployment rate is higher for lower earners so averaging out how much they make without taking that into account is impossible unless the results are only there to prove a point of the person making the graph.

You know what the graph shows if you more the starting age to 25? A much smaller gap. What happens if you start the chart at 18 and do it based on lifetime earning? Then put the people who go to college in the college categories as they generate 0 income and its because of college that they have 0 income. Then when you look at someone who is 18 making the average of 30k, and the 2 year degree is making 32k you realize that the difference is 2k and those 2 years of your life could of been spent making 60k and that it would take about 35 years for the 2 year degree holder to make back that money and the money spent on college. Then you have to account for the people who went to college and aren't doing the job they went to school for. You start to realize that there are a lot of people who wasted time and money going to college. When you account for the income loss and paying for school the first 4 years, the gap is much smaller and honest. This graph does none of that. Then you have to just stop and think.. no stupid people are going to go to college 4 or 8 years, they won't have the ability. Where as some very intelligent people that make good money don't ever go to college. Motivation is the key to success, not intelligence or education.

If we pretend like all those gaping flaws aren't there, then sure, the graph proves that going to college is always the right thing to do.
nailed it. Graphs don't show important variables. Like debt. The person not in college has the opportunity to make money and invest.
 

Mr Neutron

Well-Known Member
maybe if you removed the the blinders.
Yeah, what's wrong with you, Cathoris, remove those blinders.

you would know that all the 'gaps' are really your attempt to correct a trend that has been so solidly cemented as fact by the scientific community that you have to make up mathematical inaccuracies.
The earth centered universe and the flat earth beliefs were also "solidly cemented as fact by the scientific community", at one time.

all of the 'gaps' would be considered unacceptable data manipulation by any serious researcher.
We wouldn't want to contaminate the results with ALL the facts.

you just need to swallow this dose of reality:
Cathoris, there you go, again... you just need a dose of reality... after you remove those blinders

A COLLEGE EDUCATION WILL LEAD TO A HIGHER PAYING CAREER, NO MATTER WHAT FIELD YOU ARE IN.
LeBron James seems to have done alright and I don't think a degree is going to help him make more money. (or Bill Gates)

there were once high-paying jobs where you acquire the knowledge through work, and don't really need the degree. but those fields have all been 'outsourced' by companies b/c conservatives in the name of the free market decimated america's manufacturing sector through de-regulation.
I wish I could find this "free market" that some people keep blaming all of our troubles on.

i cannot believe there's actually a 'political ideology' that somehow perverts itself into convincing it's followers that a college education isn't worth it.
You're not spinning things now, you are twisting words in a vain attempt to make others look bad. Tsk, tsk, tsk. So transparent.

and community colleges don't really count into this whole education thing b/c most community colleges don't offer complete programs of advance science or math applications. most programs in community college involve associates in nursing, computer technicians, clerical theory etc. not even bachelor's degrees, it's mostly certificates of completion or associate's degrees if you are lucky.
Yeah, those worthless community colleges, they should just close their doors. They don't educate anybody, they're just a rip off... only a degree from a formal college or university is worth a mountain of debt.

and a college education can really load you with debt. that's why you need to have good grades, and play sports, so you can get a scholarship. that's what i did. :)
There you go, Cathoris, all high schoolers have to do is get an athletic scholarship and they won't have to go into debt. AND, the athletic department will make sure that all their grades will be passing, so they don't have to waste time studying.
 

redivider

Well-Known Member
important variables????

more like unscientific talking points.

he cannot even provide quantitative proof of the talking points.

unlike the graphs, which mathematically prove the idea that going to college means that you are probably going to earn a lot more money.... no matter what industry you are in...

the talking points he used above are so esoteric and questionable in nature that putting them to use in actual scientific analyses is a practical impossibility....

w/e... believe what you want.
 

redivider

Well-Known Member
Yeah, what's wrong with you, Cathoris, remove those blinders.



The earth centered universe and the flat earth beliefs were also "solidly cemented as fact by the scientific community", at one time.



We wouldn't want to contaminate the results with ALL the facts.



Cathoris, there you go, again... you just need a dose of reality... after you remove those blinders



LeBron James seems to have done alright and I don't think a degree is going to help him make more money. (or Bill Gates)



I wish I could find this "free market" that some people keep blaming all of our troubles on.



You're not spinning things now, you are twisting words in a vain attempt to make others look bad. Tsk, tsk, tsk. So transparent.



Yeah, those worthless community colleges, they should just close their doors. They don't educate anybody, they're just a rip off... only a degree from a formal college or university is worth a mountain of debt.



There you go, Cathoris, all high schoolers have to do is get an athletic scholarship and they won't have to go into debt. AND, the athletic department will make sure that all their grades will be passing, so they don't have to waste time studying.
the problem is you keep referring to 'facts' that are nothing more than supposition and unfounded, unproven hear say.

lebron james and bill gates are extremely rare cases which cannot be taken into consideration. look at the term 'outliers' in statistics. when researchers want to find a trend any value that goes beyond a mathematically established boundary is considered an 'outlier', an exceptional case which is not likely to be repeated. that is LEbron James, that's bill gates.

the exceptional cases which cannot be considered part of a trend. the trend is that college educated people earn more than non-college educated ones. no amount of spin you put on it is going to change that.

let me repeat it:

IF YOU GO TO COLLEGE YOU ARE PROBABLY GOING TO EARN A LOT MORE MONEY THAN IF YOU DIDN'T GO TO COLLEGE. IS IT CLEAR ENOUGH FOR YOU??

HOW BOUT ANOTHER COLOR:

IF YOU GO TO COLLEGE YOU ARE PROBABLY GOING TO EARN A LOT MORE MONEY THAN IF YOU DIDN'T GO TO COLLEGE


but whatever.... it's not like facts matter with you guys.....
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
a trend that has been so solidly cemented as fact by the scientific community
Sorry red, those numbers weren't made up by a scientist, there was no control group, no hypothesis to test, no science involved, but you go ahead and think there is.
 

sync0s

Well-Known Member
If you really look at the rich and famous, there is a hole hell of a lot of them who don't have degrees in anything.

Average net worth of a Forbes 400 member with a college degree: $2.13 billion

Average net worth of a Forbes 400 member without college degree: $2.27 billion


http://www.forbes.com/2003/07/28/cx_dd_0728mondaymatch.html

In addition, a chart early displayed an advanced or doctoral degree making an average of $78,000 a year, but what does this matter when you leave school if you have $250k+ in debt. In an unrealistic no bill world that would take them 3.33 years to pay off if every single penny they earned paid their school debt. Look at someone who is straight out of high school getting a job that pays $20,000. After that 8 years that a doctor will be schooling you would have made $160,000, while they earned nothing and actually lost $250,000 making a difference of $410,000. Despite the hire income, if someone in the doctors situation paid 20% of their income (which is reasonably high considering they say you shouldn't spend anything more on than that on your housing expenses) they will essentially be playing catch up with the non degree worker for the rest of their life. To pay off their debt at a rate of 100% of their income per year would take them 8 years just to be right with the the non degree worker. And lets be honest, how many people hold a job for 16 years at $20,000 per year without a substantial promotion or raise. these are using constants
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
important variables????

more like unscientific talking points.

he cannot even provide quantitative proof of the talking points.

unlike the graphs, which mathematically prove the idea that going to college means that you are probably going to earn a lot more money.... no matter what industry you are in...

the talking points he used above are so esoteric and questionable in nature that putting them to use in actual scientific analyses is a practical impossibility....

w/e... believe what you want.
LOL Neutron made your argument look like that of a five year old having a temper tantrum. He really did decimate your argument.
 

Dan Kone

Well-Known Member
LeBron James seems to have done alright and I don't think a degree is going to help him make more money. (or Bill Gates)
damn it! So if I would have skipped college I would have been LeBron James??!!? I had no idea.

It's starting to make sense why conservatives have convinced their supporters they don't need college. One statistics class and their whole ideology would go to shit.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
I know some people who went to college, but they didn't learn anything and now have a lot of debt to pay off, but can only find waiter jobs, or minimum wage jobs. College isn't for everyone and going to college guarantees NOTHING in the way of increased wages. McDonalds employees make minimum wage no matter how much college you have.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Fucking paraplegic and Jerry's kids who are smart can't go to college, can't get a athletic scholarship. Fuck them, they can work at McDonalds.
 

redivider

Well-Known Member
Sorry red, those numbers weren't made up by a scientist, there was no control group, no hypothesis to test, no science involved, but you go ahead and think there is.
actually. the hypothesis is that having a college education means you earn more money

h0: null hypothesis: having a college degree or not doesn't affect how much you earn.

h1: alternate hypothesis: having a college degree affects how much you earn.

Test: average wages of college educate folks is greater than the average wages of non-college educated folks.

Results, every conceivable source can show us that the average wage of college educated folks is for the most part one standard deviation or more greater than that of those who chose to bypass a college education.

seems my argument that got decimated has some pretty solid science backing it up.

him, on the other hand.....
 

Dan Kone

Well-Known Member
I know some people who went to college, but they didn't learn anything and now have a lot of debt to pay off, but can only find waiter jobs, or minimum wage jobs. College isn't for everyone and going to college guarantees NOTHING in the way of increased wages. McDonalds employees make minimum wage no matter how much college you have.
anecdotal stories > statistics. The only way conservatism works.
 
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