Soil-less Organics with Professor Matt Rize

[RPsmoke420]

Any opinion on Canna's coco blend?

How about hydroton instead of perlite? I remember throwing old broken clay pot parts into the bottoms of containers before dumping in regular soil. Same idea, right?

If you have a hydro grow, maybe clean the hydroton off, then use it in the soil/soil-less medium. Just thinking out loud I guess.

How about some ideas of disposing of your medium? Do you reuse?

 

[Matt Rize]

Any opinion on Canna's coco blend?
How about hydroton instead of perlite? I remember throwing old broken clay pot parts into the bottoms of containers before dumping in regular soil. Same idea, right?
If you have a hydro grow, maybe clean the hydroton off, then use it in the soil/soil-less medium. Just thinking out loud I guess.
How about some ideas of disposing of your medium? Do you reuse?

Yeah, hydroton is what I generically refer to as a stone product, much like pumice (but pumice is better IMO). When I use larger pots I use stones, but right now I am flowering in 3 gallon pots, so lifting them to see which ones need water is part of the daily routine.

Agree - I would always wash the pumice or hyrdoton stones between rounds. I'm for cleaning.

Disposing of the media is sad... again IMO. I always reuse it for something. Either to add dirt to beds. Spread it in the ivy, whatever. I hate to throw it out. If I have soil borne pathogens I have been known to use the city yardscraps bin... but that is not advisable.

Most of your soil pathogens will die when the media goes outside and dries out. I like to bake the pile under tarps in the summer, then reuse it for outdoor beds. It really depends on how the round went. Sometimes it takes longer for the roots to break down.

Re-using media changes the properties, gradually it becomes soil. Indoors I'm into "dialing", so I need consistency, and I prefer to use soilless organic media with liquid/powdered food.

 

[RPsmoke420]

Right on man. Not a fan of throwing much away either. Try and find a use for it when I can. I put some in the raised beds outside, and other spots around the house. Sometimes dump into other pots, to use in house plants and what not. Always looking for more options. Wondering if I could get away with two runs per batch, before moving it outdoors. As long as everything is healthy, I think it could work. Maybe go 50/50 fresh and old. Something to play around with at least.

Why would pumice be a better material? Just curious.

I know you are/were a big fan of the Bio Terra Plus from Canna. Now that it is no longer available... any experience with their coco? http://www.cannagardening.com/node/1422 I believe that is still available here. Is your BTP turning into soil yet?

Have been using Roots Organics 707 formula. It works great, has less perlite then most mixes I've played with. It does have bat guano and fish bone meal in it. Holds water a little much though.

Just toking and typing

 

[Matt Rize]

Right on man. Not a fan of throwing much away either. Try and find a use for it when I can. I put some in the raised beds outside, and other spots around the house. Sometimes dump into other pots, to use in house plants and what not. Always looking for more options. Wondering if I could get away with two runs per batch, before moving it outdoors. As long as everything is healthy, I think it could work. Maybe go 50/50 fresh and old. Something to play around with at least.

Why would pumice be a better material? Just curious.

I know you are/were a big fan of the Bio Terra Plus from Canna. Now that it is no longer available... any experience with their coco? http://www.cannagardening.com/node/1422 I believe that is still available here. Is your BTP turning into soil yet?

Have been using Roots Organics 707 formula. It works great, has less perlite then most mixes I've played with. It does have bat guano and fish bone meal in it. Holds water a little much though.

Just toking and typing

lol rp, toking and typing, that should be the new subforum.

I think pumice holds more air than the hydroton stones. I like the very airy structure of pumice.

Reusing media is for sure a good option, but I like to give the mix a grow cycle to rest, then re-amend. I've noticed it takes weeks, and months if it is cool, for the roots to fully decompose after a round. A 50:50 mix (reuse:fresh) would work well, but remember the nutrient pre-charge will be half of what it would be with 100% fresh. That means you will have to fertigate harder, or mix in some meal to compensate for the reused media's lack of nutrients.

 

[quietguy420]

lol rp, toking and typing, that should be the new subforum.

I think pumice holds more air than the hydroton stones. I like the very airy structure of pumice.

Reusing media is for sure a good option, but I like to give the mix a grow cycle to rest, then re-amend. I've noticed it takes weeks, and months if it is cool, for the roots to fully decompose after a round. A 50:50 mix (reuse:fresh) would work well, but remember the nutrient pre-charge will be half of what it would be with 100% fresh. That means you will have to fertigate harder, or mix in some meal to compensate for the reused media's lack of nutrients.

Tell me about it, I'm out in the mountains and its cold. I tossed out some substrate from some girls I harvested a few months ago onto some of my tiered flower beds, "all the flowers have died and shriveled already". All the stuff on the lowest tier still has a bit of moisture weeks later and some of the roots are still white and moist. I'm thinking I should have chopped up the stuff with the shovel better, now it just looks conspicuous in the middle of winter some dark black substrate with lots of roots in a 20 foot long flower bed...

 

[RPsmoke420]

lol rp, toking and typing, that should be the new subforum.

I think pumice holds more air than the hydroton stones. I like the very airy structure of pumice.

Reusing media is for sure a good option, but I like to give the mix a grow cycle to rest, then re-amend. I've noticed it takes weeks, and months if it is cool, for the roots to fully decompose after a round. A 50:50 mix (reuse:fresh) would work well, but remember the nutrient pre-charge will be half of what it would be with 100% fresh. That means you will have to fertigate harder, or mix in some meal to compensate for the reused media's lack of nutrients.

Always man!

I gotcha. I was wondering if there was something more to it. I'd agree the pumice would hold more air. The Roots Organics 707 uses more pumice then perlite from what I can see.

Good info man, appreciate it. Sure wish I still had some canna soil.

 

[Matt Rize]

Always man!

I gotcha. I was wondering if there was something more to it. I'd agree the pumice would hold more air. The Roots Organics 707 uses more pumice then perlite from what I can see.

Good info man, appreciate it. Sure wish I still had some canna soil.

I'll get you a bag rp to test out. PM me.

 

[NightbirdX]

Hey man, not sure if you post here anymore but I'll give it a try and if not, I'll repost on your Veganic section. Basically I had a couple of questions.

The first is about BTP. Does BTP have slow release nutrients or is it a soilless like Pro-Mix. I read through this whole thread and was kinda confused as you seemed to be talking about it as a non fertilized soilless medium, and as I understood it, BTP had slow release nutes in it. Any place you know of to get it online?

My second question is about Molasses. When should I start adding molasses to my nutrient mix. I have heard a couple of variations. I have heard that it needs to be done during the beginning of flowering and then others say at the last 2 weeks before flushing. What do you suggest?

My last question is about teas. Basically my grow goes like this, I do 4 Plant a month rotations to comply with my state limitation plant limit of 12. They are in 15 gallon pots and are in a 1:1 mix of Pro-Mix orange and Happy Frog organic soil. I water every 5-7 days and the plants recieve 2.5gallons of water. Basically right now they are getting 8ml of BioFlores, 5ml Cannazyme, 5ml of Rhizotonic, and 5ml of BioBoost per gallon in Flowering. In Veg they are getting 8ml of BioVega, 5ml Cannazyme, and 5ml of Rhizotonic per gallon. I am going to cut my watering down to 1 gallon every 2-3days and every other watering give my plants a tea. My tea is going to consist of some Peppermint compost for bacterias, Molasses for sugars, and I was going to add some soluble Mycorrhizae to help recharge the soil. Depending on if my plants are in Veg or Flowering, I was going to add 1ml of Vega or 1ml Flores/1mlBioBoost per gallon for some nutrients. I could add some Happy Frog to the soil for some more nutrients and bacterias. The solids will go in a panty hose and be tied and the solubles will be added after the solids have been brewed in hot water for several hours. Does this sound like a good base for a tea? Does anything look like it is missing?

Thank you for taking the time to responds, should you so choose to, and thanks for the great information. I am learning a lot from you and my plants look amazing.

 

[RPsmoke420]

Hey man, not sure if you post here anymore but I'll give it a try and if not, I'll repost on your Veganic section. Basically I had a couple of questions.

The first is about BTP. Does BTP have slow release nutrients or is it a soilless like Pro-Mix. I read through this whole thread and was kinda confused as you seemed to be talking about it as a non fertilized soilless medium, and as I understood it, BTP had slow release nutes in it. Any place you know of to get it online?

My second question is about Molasses. When should I start adding molasses to my nutrient mix. I have heard a couple of variations. I have heard that it needs to be done during the beginning of flowering and then others say at the last 2 weeks before flushing. What do you suggest?

My last question is about teas. Basically my grow goes like this, I do 4 Plant a month rotations to comply with my state limitation plant limit of 12. They are in 15 gallon pots and are in a 1:1 mix of Pro-Mix orange and Happy Frog organic soil. I water every 5-7 days and the plants recieve 2.5gallons of water. Basically right now they are getting 8ml of BioFlores, 5ml Cannazyme, 5ml of Rhizotonic, and 5ml of BioBoost per gallon in Flowering. In Veg they are getting 8ml of BioVega, 5ml Cannazyme, and 5ml of Rhizotonic per gallon. I am going to cut my watering down to 1 gallon every 2-3days and every other watering give my plants a tea. My tea is going to consist of some Peppermint compost for bacterias, Molasses for sugars, and I was going to add some soluble Mycorrhizae to help recharge the soil. Depending on if my plants are in Veg or Flowering, I was going to add 1ml of Vega or 1ml Flores/1mlBioBoost per gallon for some nutrients. I could add some Happy Frog to the soil for some more nutrients and bacterias. The solids will go in a panty hose and be tied and the solubles will be added after the solids have been brewed in hot water for several hours. Does this sound like a good base for a tea? Does anything look like it is missing?

Thank you for taking the time to responds, should you so choose to, and thanks for the great information. I am learning a lot from you and my plants look amazing.

I'm sure he's just super busy, and will respond once he gets a chance. I can add my 2 cents too...

BTP - soilless with almost no nutrient value. It is designed to work along with their liquid fertilizers. It's the "soil structure" that most people fall in love with, with BTP. No perlite needed. It's great, and not available for the most part. I heard they may be some in Texas...

I use Molasses through out. I generally flush for two weeks. First of those two is just molasses and water. Last week just water. I'll add this note (not my info. Credit to the orginal author is in there)

Molasses to neutralize Chlorine and Chloramines in tap water?
From T Wilson of microbeorganics.com

"1/ ascorbic acid for chloramines or chlorine; 3 grams in 100 gallons will
treat up to 3PPM.

2/ I found your chlorine test interesting and decided to do the same to
put my arguement that reducing sugars in the molasses would handle the
chlorine and chloramine.

Using a similar test strip that tests for both free and total
chlorine, I found my city water to have 0.5ppm free and 1.5 ppm of
free and total chlorine,respectively. Testing 1 gal and 5 gal of city
water, I added 1/4 teaspoon of molasses to each. The reaction was not
instantaneous but the kinetics were faster than I would have guessed.
The one gallon reaction showed no dectable chlorine of either type
withing 3 minutes. At 5 gallons, I obtained the same result within 20
minutes.

Chlorine levels are regulated a 4 ppm maximum
4 ppm = 4mg/l
Chloramine concentrations are expressed as chlorine equivalents, so one uses the molecular weight of chlorine for calculations.
One molecule of reducing sugar will react with one molecule of chlorine.
Therefore, on a weight basis, one needs 4mg/l *(the molecular weight of the reducing sugar/the molecular weight of chlorine)/ (the decimal fraction of reducing sugar in your molasses)
I’ve seen numbers ranging from 15% to 50% for the percent reducing sugar in molasses
The reducing sugars are going to be a mixture of mono and disaccharides. Molecular weights = 180 and 342, respectively
Chlorine molecular weight =70
Therefore, worst case, one needs 4*(342/70)/.15 =130mg/L molasses
I saw a recipe by Elaine that calls for 1 oz molasses in 5 gallons. That’s 1 part in 640 or 1563 ppm .
So, worse case you have a 12 fold excess.

Run these same numbers for pure glucose (a reducing monosaccharide) and you end up needing 10ppm glucose. When i need dilution water for spraying, I use a 20-30 ppm glucose and let it sit overnight.

I continue to be perplexed by the amount of hand wringing that
goes on over chlorine and chloramine. These both function as
oxidizing agents and, as such, are destroyed by reducing agents.

Cane molasses runs at 15-20% reducing sugar.
Regulations allow a maximum of 4ppm chlorine, expressed as Cl2.
Allowing for the molecular weight difference between Cl2 the
reducing sugars in molasses, you would need 10ppm reducing sugar to
react with the chlorine.
At 15% reducing sugar, you need 66ppm molasses.

I put my molasses in first, give it some time to react and don't
worry."

I've heard argument for everything in between. I'd say experiment. Run some side by sides. See what works.

Do you plan to aerate your tea? Here is a tea recipe:
Dr. Ingham of Soil Food Web Labs (www.soilfoodweb.com):

5 gal brewer
1 lb. compost
½ cup of humic acid
1 to 3 T. of kelp
1 tsp. of non-sulfured, blackstrap molasses

I have read some interesting articles on the idea that plant food actually hurts your tea. I say keep the tea simple. Water, compost, molasses, humic acid, then aerate for 12 to 24 hours, strain, dilute, feed.

best of luck!

 

[NightbirdX]

I'm sure he's just super busy, and will respond once he gets a chance. I can add my 2 cents too...

BTP - soilless with almost no nutrient value. It is designed to work along with their liquid fertilizers. It's the "soil structure" that most people fall in love with, with BTP. No perlite needed. It's great, and not available for the most part. I heard they may be some in Texas...

I use Molasses through out. I generally flush for two weeks. First of those two is just molasses and water. Last week just water. I'll add this note (not my info. Credit to the orginal author is in there)



I've heard argument for everything in between. I'd say experiment. Run some side by sides. See what works.

Do you plan to aerate your tea? Here is a tea recipe:
Dr. Ingham of Soil Food Web Labs (www.soilfoodweb.com):

5 gal brewer
1 lb. compost
½ cup of humic acid
1 to 3 T. of kelp
1 tsp. of non-sulfured, blackstrap molasses

I have read some interesting articles on the idea that plant food actually hurts your tea. I say keep the tea simple. Water, compost, molasses, humic acid, then aerate for 12 to 24 hours, strain, dilute, feed.

best of luck!

I appreciate the info man. I don't really have an aerator right now, but I had planned on steeping the nylon in hot water, stir occassionally vigorously, and then use it after that. I plan on getting a brewer eventually, but I am still low on funds and have a few other things needed before I can justify a brewer.

 

[Matt Rize]

I'm sure he's just super busy, and will respond once he gets a chance. I can add my 2 cents too...

BTP - soilless with almost no nutrient value. It is designed to work along with their liquid fertilizers. It's the "soil structure" that most people fall in love with, with BTP. No perlite needed. It's great, and not available for the most part. I heard they may be some in Texas...

I use Molasses through out. I generally flush for two weeks. First of those two is just molasses and water. Last week just water. I'll add this note (not my info. Credit to the orginal author is in there)

I've heard argument for everything in between. I'd say experiment. Run some side by sides. See what works.

Do you plan to aerate your tea? Here is a tea recipe:
Dr. Ingham of Soil Food Web Labs (www.soilfoodweb.com):

5 gal brewer
1 lb. compost
½ cup of humic acid
1 to 3 T. of kelp
1 tsp. of non-sulfured, blackstrap molasses

I have read some interesting articles on the idea that plant food actually hurts your tea. I say keep the tea simple. Water, compost, molasses, humic acid, then aerate for 12 to 24 hours, strain, dilute, feed.

best of luck!

I appreciate the info man. I don't really have an aerator right now, but I had planned on steeping the nylon in hot water, stir occassionally vigorously, and then use it after that. I plan on getting a brewer eventually, but I am still low on funds and have a few other things needed before I can justify a brewer.

Thanks RP! Honestly, I saw the post last night but was WAY to buzzed to answer coherently. I blame the Pliny the Elder, they add Hops extract to it after brewing, and IMO that extract works with Cannabinoids way too well!

I think you (nightbirdX) are confused a little about teas. The term tea for gardening isn't about adding stuff to warm water and steeping like the tea we drink. It's about adding a life source (soil, compost, or earth worm castings) to water and agitating it to break the microbes from the soil. That way we can strain our "tea" and add the life (microbes) to our pots. Teas for nutrients is another thing, and are best kept separate from the "life teas" we are usually talking about. Hot water will most likely kill you soil microbes. Nutrients in your tea will also kill your microbes.

RP is spot on with the BTPlus. It has enough food for a couple waterings. After that its all about feeding nutrients with your water.

Better than making nutrient teas is making fermented plant extracts. It's cheap and easy. The basics are: take a milk jug, add water, molasses, and comfrey or nettles (or other plants that we can list later). Then let that rot (ferment) and you will have a concentrated fertilizer made from scratch, no bubbling or any of that.

 

[NightbirdX]

Thanks Matt. I had to also wait until today to due to a nice buzz, but mine was from some incredible Jack Herer x White Rhino and some incredible Casey Jones. Couple that with a long night of topping and cloning, then cleaning. I was pretty tired and my head was buzzing, lol.

Thank you for clarifying that for me Matt. I have heard and read so many different things, sometimes it can be hard to keep the compass in the right direction. I will be looking into nutrient teas later, but am trying to take on one thing at a time and right now I'm trying to get a microbial tea down. More roots, more fruits. I'll stick with the peppermint compost, some organic soil, and add some Molasses and Mycorrhizae before feeding the mix to the plants. I've been looking at a lot of different threads on creating teas, but I guess most of them are still in the process of being finished by posters.

 

[R3DROCk9]

wuzup matt....didnt read much bu the headline..anyways i'm runnin Vermicrop CocoNot righ now..you familiar? any1 have any runs wit it?? i am lovin it so far...its clean and very absorbant..seems to dry up normal like normal soil (about 3 days under 1k), and it seems to fill up with air like a marshmallow (not as drastic, tho) when it dries...i sometimes push it down like a marshmallow, too, and it'll spring back up over the next few hours...great product IMHO

anywyas, heres how they describe it on their website:

Utilizing a specific layer of the redwood bark and using a proprietary method to grind the material into 6 different size/shaped particles of medium, we have created a structure made with the sole purpose to grow plants. We found by adding the fiber of a Kapok fruit we were able to add additional buoyancy, resilience, and drainage. This fiber is made of mostly Lignin: Lignin is generally associated with reduced digestibility of the overall plant biomass, which helps defend against pathogens and pests. A perfect air to water ratio, pH'd and buffered for optimal nutrient uptake CocoNot is free of excess salts and is providing amazing results for growers.

 

[Matt Rize]

wuzup matt....didnt read much bu the headline..anyways i'm runnin Vermicrop CocoNot righ now..you familiar? any1 have any runs wit it?? i am lovin it so far...its clean and very absorbant..seems to dry up normal like normal soil (about 3 days under 1k), and it seems to fill up with air like a marshmallow (not as drastic, tho) when it dries...i sometimes push it down like a marshmallow, too, and it'll spring back up over the next few hours...great product IMHO

anywyas, heres how they describe it on their website:

Utilizing a specific layer of the redwood bark and using a proprietary method to grind the material into 6 different size/shaped particles of medium, we have created a structure made with the sole purpose to grow plants. We found by adding the fiber of a Kapok fruit we were able to add additional buoyancy, resilience, and drainage. This fiber is made of mostly Lignin: Lignin is generally associated with reduced digestibility of the overall plant biomass, which helps defend against pathogens and pests. A perfect air to water ratio, pH'd and buffered for optimal nutrient uptake CocoNot is free of excess salts and is providing amazing results for growers.

Honestly I stopped using coconot, but I heard Kushman is having good results with it. Glad to hear you are loving it as well. What are you feeding it? Did you mix anything in or go straight out the bag?

 

[R3DROCk9]

Honestly I stopped using coconot, but I heard Kushman is having good results with it. Glad to hear you are loving it as well. What are you feeding it? Did you mix anything in or go straight out the bag?

i use it straight........biocanna nutrients

 

[beeznutz]

Coconot was a product I was looking into but I read somewhere it is buffered with oyster flour- that true ?

 

[HeavyHebrew]

Mr. Matt Rize,

For a beginner like myself, what is your opinion on un-modified premier pro-mix bx with the Earth Juice nutrient lineup (grow, bloom, catalyst, micro, etc) for a first grow?
Would using dolomite lime be a good idea for ph balancing?

Thanks in advance and may fortune smile upon you!

 

[Vindicated]

Hey Matt. You have some interesting views, but there is one I have a question about. On the first page of this thread you mentioned potted plants and recommend beneficial organisms like mycorrhizae. My question is this: if you as the gardener are able to supply all the nutrients to the plants, how are these fungi beneficial? Aren't they stealing sugars from the plant with no added benefit?

 

[Matt Rize]

Mr. Matt Rize,

For a beginner like myself, what is your opinion on un-modified premier pro-mix bx with the Earth Juice nutrient lineup (grow, bloom, catalyst, micro, etc) for a first grow?
Would using dolomite lime be a good idea for ph balancing?

Thanks in advance and may fortune smile upon you!

You are talking about this soil right?

Pro-Mix High Porosity (HP) provides a superior growing environment for plants that require increased drainage and oxygen. In addition to Canadian Sphagnum peat moss, perlite, major- and micronutrients, and dolomite and calcitic limestone, it's fortified with beneficial endomycorrhizal fungus to strengthen roots and increase plants' ability to fully utilize available nutrients. This is a compressed 3.8 cubic foot bale.

http://www.amazon.com/Premier-Horticulture-432P-Pro-mix-Mycorise/dp/B001O85RX2

That peat mix is okay, adding some soil amendments (earth worm castings, compost, food meal forms, dolomite lime ect) will make everything easier but is not necessary. Earth juice is quality. You can most def start without amendments, but they are generally inexpensive and make life easier.

My mix right now:
BioTerra Plus
Earth Worm Castings
Neem Cake
Vegan Meal
Dolomite Lime
Grade #4 perlite
And a little biochar (charcoal essentiall)

 

[Matt Rize]

Hey Matt. You have some interesting views, but there is one I have a question about. On the first page of this thread you mentioned potted plants and recommend beneficial organisms like mycorrhizae. My question is this: if you as the gardener are able to supply all the nutrients to the plants, how are these fungi beneficial? Aren't they stealing sugars from the plant with no added benefit?

The food that we (organic) growers feed the plants goes through the microbes first, partially. This is called microbial nutrient cycling. Some food does go straight to the plant, but this isn't really the core of organics. Myco doesn't steal from plants, plants feed the myco to encourage their presence. If you are doing hydro or aero, then soil microbes are pretty useless. I really don't think of myco as a parasite, it's pretty much a beneficial, increasing root surface area and defending the roots from pathogens. Rize UP!