The Choice I Never Made...

[guy incognito]

What is moral framework? What are it's foundations? who sets its bounderies? why are certain things moral or imoral? who draws these definitions and who enforces them and how?

Moral framework would be the framework of morals you operate under. Some of my personal foundations are: treat other people like I want to be treated. I have a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I acknowledge that right in other people, and try not to infringe upon it. I don't murder people because I don't want to be murdered. It's not out of fear of retaliation, or getting caught, or being punished by god, it's because it would violate my own moral code.

I set it's boundaries. Certain things are moral or immoral based on whether they violate the fundamental rules. I set these definitions for myself. Society also sets it's own definitions and makes them laws. The police and court system enforce the ones society deems important enough for law.

I think using god or religion as a reason for something being "wrong" or "immoral" doesn't make any sense. It's the equivalent of "because I said so!" If it is wrong and immoral, why can't you come up with other reasons WHY it's wrong or immoral? Is murder wrong? I think any rational person, when taking god completely out of the equation, would still come to the conclusion that murder is wrong.

 

[Padawanbater2]

aren't dreams proof of GOD? and microscopic cells have to be proof also. I would also say people who have heard GOD or talked to him are proof.

Why do you think dreams would be 'proof' of God?

Or microscopic cells?

I'm sure you can see the pattern here beardo.. Things you simply don't understand you attribute to God. They must be God because you can't understand them? Come on man, you must realize how this line of reasoning is flawed.

Plenty of people hear voices in their head all the time. How do you know what is a random voice inside your head and God? How would one determine that?

This video has nothing to do with your post, but it's relevant to the thread;

[youtube]swkAGExZCII&feature=feedrec_grec_index[/youtube]

 

[mindphuk]

aren't dreams proof of GOD? and microscopic cells have to be proof also. I would also say people who have heard GOD or talked to him are proof.

How so? There are naturalistic explanations for dreams, cells and even people that hear voices. Your evidence filter is severely skewed if you think those things are proof of anything supernatural.

 

[dababydroman]

ya'll can go about it all day and night, even though your so sure, that you will fight a never ending war of debate .
If any of yall are good people and wind up at the pearly gates, i hope god bitch slaps you and tells you to take off your shoes.

 

[beardo]

Moral framework would be the framework of morals you operate under. Some of my personal foundations are: treat other people like I want to be treated. I have a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I acknowledge that right in other people, and try not to infringe upon it. I don't murder people because I don't want to be murdered. It's not out of fear of retaliation, or getting caught, or being punished by god, it's because it would violate my own moral code.

I set it's boundaries. Certain things are moral or immoral based on whether they violate the fundamental rules. I set these definitions for myself. Society also sets it's own definitions and makes them laws. The police and court system enforce the ones society deems important enough for law.

I think using god or religion as a reason for something being "wrong" or "immoral" doesn't make any sense. It's the equivalent of "because I said so!" If it is wrong and immoral, why can't you come up with other reasons WHY it's wrong or immoral? Is murder wrong? I think any rational person, when taking god completely out of the equation, would still come to the conclusion that murder is wrong.

I think our Society has it's morals deeply based on religion- and so do most people. Killing people is very morally accepted in our society as it is today but only under some cercumstances like at war or by police or as an abortion, it is a judgment call and as of now that judgment is made in a scciety that is based on the bible that says not to kill. Why not kill so you can have more to eat or a bigger yard or less traffic or lower unemployment? it is a very slippery slope and we are already in a slide I think society needs more God not less.

 

[beardo]

How so? There are naturalistic explanations for dreams, cells and even people that hear voices. Your evidence filter is severely skewed if you think those things are proof of anything supernatural.

When God talks to you you know it and you know he speaks the truth- you know it is real and their is no denying what is real and as you know reality is subjective,. what is real to me is real, it doesn't matter if you can see it- if I see it it is real for me.

 

[dababydroman]

for-real^ .. lol plenty of ppl hear voices in there head all the time? can you hear the voices in other ppls heads too?

 

[Padawanbater2]

When God talks to you you know it and you know he speaks the truth- you know it is real and their is no denying what is real and as you know reality is subjective,. what is real to me is real, it doesn't matter if you can see it- if I see it it is real for me.

beardo, don't you think that's what a person who hears voices would say to justify it? There is no way for you to know that it's God. Everyone knows you cannot know. When you say you know and that there's no denying it, we all know you're being dishonest.

Reality is not subjective. Your opinion of it is.

 

[mindphuk]

I think our Society has it's morals deeply based on religion- and so do most people. Killing people is very morally accepted in our society as it is today but only under some cercumstances like at war or by police or as an abortion, it is a judgment call and as of now that judgment is made in a scciety that is based on the bible that says not to kill. Why not kill so you can have more to eat or a bigger yard or less traffic or lower unemployment? it is a very slippery slope and we are already in a slide I think society needs more God not less.

You don't think not killing other people in your own society but going to war with outsiders predates religion? Even lower animals observe this 'moral.' Piranha in a feeding frenzy still don't eat each other. Is that because of some fish religion? Empathy for others that are similar to us is genetically encoded. Most people, consciously or unconsciously won't kill another person because they wouldn't want to be killed themselves. I don't steal from others because I wouldn't want someone stealing from me. This is basic to any society living together whether they believe in a god or are completely atheistic.

Would you care to explain how a primitive Amazonian tribe has survived as long as they had not believing in any form of a deity? http://freethinker.co.uk/2008/11/08/how-an-amazonian-tribe-turned-a-missionary-into-an-atheist/

 

[beardo]

for-real^ .. lol plenty of ppl hear voices in there head all the time? can you hear the voices in other ppls heads too?

When the voice tells you something it is real and you have heard it so their is no denying what you heard and no forgetting it either.

 

[mindphuk]

When God talks to you you know it and you know he speaks the truth- you know it is real and their is no denying what is real and as you know reality is subjective,. what is real to me is real, it doesn't matter if you can see it- if I see it it is real for me.

So how would you answer Penn's questions? If God spoke to you and told you to kill your child, would you do it?

 

[guy incognito]

I think our Society has it's morals deeply based on religion- and so do most people. Killing people is very morally accepted in our society as it is today but only under some cercumstances like at war or by police or as an abortion, it is a judgment call and as of now that judgment is made in a scciety that is based on the bible that says not to kill. Why not kill so you can have more to eat or a bigger yard or less traffic or lower unemployment? it is a very slippery slope and we are already in a slide I think society needs more God not less.

I feel like you didn't read my post. I do not consider killing for gain because I think killing another human for gain is fundamentally wrong regardless of whether the bible condemns it or not. I am a human and I believe I have the right to not be murdered by other people. I extend that same right to other people. I will not kill another human. Don't you have any reasons other than god for not murdering people? Is that the only reason you think it's wrong? If it wasn't specifically stated in the bible that murder was wrong you would think it would be acceptable?

 

[beardo]

You don't think not killing other people in your own society but going to war with outsiders predates religion? Even lower animals observe this 'moral.' Piranha in a feeding frenzy still don't eat each other. Is that because of some fish religion? Empathy for others that are similar to us is genetically encoded. Most people, consciously or unconsciously won't kill another person because they wouldn't want to be killed themselves. I don't steal from others because I wouldn't want someone stealing from me. This is basic to any society living together whether they believe in a god or are completely atheistic.

Would you care to explain how a primitive Amazonian tribe has survived as long as they had not believing in any form of a deity? http://freethinker.co.uk/2008/11/08/how-an-amazonian-tribe-turned-a-missionary-into-an-atheist/

Monkeys will steal from eachother and kill eachother and eat other monkeys
I was actually citing our current willingness to justify killings as a problem with the lack of a strict adherance to religious guidelines. and that widespread adoption of aethesim would make things much worse

 

[beardo]

I feel like you didn't read my post. I do not consider killing for gain because I think killing another human for gain is fundamentally wrong regardless of whether the bible condemns it or not. I am a human and I believe I have the right to not be murdered by other people. I extend that same right to other people. I will not kill another human. Don't you have any reasons other than god for not murdering people? Is that the only reason you think it's wrong? If it wasn't specifically stated in the bible that murder was wrong you would think it would be acceptable?

Yes- I would pick up the nearest rock and start bashing skulls of hypocrites
What is your stance on funding killings?-How do you feel about abortion and death peanalty and the military and police?

 

[dababydroman]

beardo, don't you think that's what a person who hears voices would say to justify it? There is no way for you to know that it's God. Everyone knows you cannot know. When you say you know and that there's no denying it, we all know you're being dishonest.

Reality is not subjective. Your opinion of it is.

see theres no debateing yall becuase nomatter what we say you just say the same thing nope, nope, nope. so why in the hell do you keep coming back to hear it again and again and say the same shit over and over.. how the hell does it help you? your fighting a never ending battle with ppl who believe. you all do not understand the supernatural powers of belief.

but theres alot you do not understand because you can come back and ask me if i believe tommorow and ill say yes, come the next day and ill say yes. put a gun to my head and ask me if i believe in jesus christ and ill say yes. so, i win and you lose.

 

[beardo]

So how would you answer Penn's questions? If God spoke to you and told you to kill your child, would you do it?

No because the bible says it is a mortal sin so I would know it was satan pretending to be God.

 

[dababydroman]

if you thought god told you to kill your kid your fucking crazy, ilegitimate question that takes ya'll athiests nowhere.

 

[guy incognito]

see theres no debateing yall becuase nomatter what we say you just say the same thing nope, nope, nope. so why in the hell do you keep coming back to hear it again and again and say the same shit over and over.. how the hell does it help you? your fighting a never ending battle with ppl who believe. you all do not understand the supernatural powers of belief.

but theres alot you do not understand because you can come back and ask me if i believe tommorow and ill say yes, come the next day and ill say yes. put a gun to my head and ask me if i believe in jesus christ and ill say yes. so, i win and you lose.

All pads point is is how do you differentiate between god truly talking to you and a delusion? How can you know absolutely certain one way or the other from your own view point (as the one hearing the voice)?

 

[mindphuk]

No because the bible says it is a mortal sin so I would know it was satan pretending to be God.

That's a dodge. You said you know it is god instinctively, not because it is consistent with what is written in the bible. God can have good reasons, such as preventing your child, who he know grows up to be very evil because you die in a year and he grows up without you. Maybe he's testing you like Abraham. The point is, if you KNOW that it is God speaking to you, which you claimed to be able to do, AND he asks you to commit some atrocity, your denial means that you don't trust the voice, therefore how can you trust ANY voice? How can you question the voice of God?

Besides, what good is a voice that only tells you things that you already know to be true or consistent with how you already live your life? How can you distinguish God's voice from a schizophrenic break? How do you know it's really God when it may be that it is completely normal for some people to hear voices and not even have a true mental illness? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearing_Voices_Movement

 

[Padawanbater2]

No because the bible says it is a mortal sin so I would know it was satan pretending to be God.

This is exactly what's being pointed out and I think you're still missing it. You don't KNOW it's God, you don't KNOW it's the Devil. This is what you THINK. Please realize the distinction.

You're using inconsistent standards for your belief.

@ dababydroman, I'm asking you WHY you believe. Aren't you interested in trying to better understand why what convinced you doesn't convince me or the rest of the atheists in the thread? I'm not interested in changing anyones mind, I learned a long time ago it's an impossible task. I'm interested in pointing out the flaws in the logic that led you to believe what you believe because I think your beliefs are dangerous and cause harm. It would be one thing if you had sufficient reason to justify them, like if it were possible to prove the existence of God, and that would be another question entirely that we'd be debating instead, but you don't. All you have is "I need this to feel comfortable, you HAVE to respect that because it's my religious belief", and in most cases I'd agree, you have every single right to your own personal religious beliefs, but when they start to hurt other people, impact other peoples lives in a negative way, that's when I have a problem. This is what beleivers can't see, are oblivious to, or choose not to acknowledge; that their beliefs harm other people. They group together, a whole host of psychological factors take over and they end up confirming each others flawed conclusions without even realizing it. As long as the majority believe the same thing, this tactic works. As more people lose their faith, less people are comfortable with using this tactic to avoid finding true reasons to justify their belief, as is evident by the majority of believers responses to the thread.