Electrical service upgrade

[tet1953]

I need more juice. I have a 100 amp breaker at the top of the main. I have a 50 amp breaker in the main servicing a subpanel that I installed. And, of course, a full main otherwise. Totally maxed out on amps. I need more, and fast. I can't run all the lights I have set up.
Question: Can existing drop to the house and meter and the wire going from meter to main likely support a 200 amp in the main? If so, I'll change that and just do another subpanel. Note: they recently changed my meter from analog to a wireless digital.

 

[panhead]

I highly doubt you can drop in a 200 amp service panel in place of an existing 100 amp service,in most cases the main feed from the pole to the meter needs to be upgraded,thats after you upgrade the feed from the meter to the panel.

Where im at con ed wants the consumer to upgrade the feed from the meter to the panel before they will bring in their new lines,saftey reasons.

Look into panel upgrade kits,square d sells a 200 amp kit that fits right into an existing 100 amp breaker slot,this will save you a few bucks by saving the panel,but all the other lines will need to be of larger gauge first.

 

[Murfy]

it's all about the wire-

from the street. more than likely you don't have a 200A feed with a 100A box at the end of it.

standing on the ground looking, 200A supply is just about twice as thick as 100A supply wire.

call an electrician. it's a simple upgrade if you can rewire the panel(new 200A) by yourself.

happy growing.

PS keep in mind running appliances at 240V, cuts amps in half!

 

[legallyflying]

What Pan head said.

Amps are Amps so my suggestion would be to run 220/240 to power your ballasts. You will double your capacity over 110/120. Easy if your running digital balllasts as they will automatically handle the switch.

You could power 9,000 watts with a 50 amp 220 circuit. 8 gauge wire on that 50 amp.

 

[tet1953]

Maybe that's what I need to do, go with 220. I have two rooms, each with 2x 1000w and 2x 600w for a total of 3200w per room. Just added the 600s and it was just too much. The wire feeding my subpanel got real hot. I've turned off all but one of the 600s for now. Been keeping an eye on it all afternoon and it seems ok now, but I need to do something.
My ballasts are all digital. So I'll just need different cables for them right?

 

[tet1953]

I think it is at least 8 guage going from the 50a breaker in the main to the subpanel. Maybe bigger. The conductors are like 1/4 wide. It is the neutral of this that got hot, right where it goes into the neutral bus. I have since made a new end on it and secured it better on the bus. Seems fine now, but I am not running all my lights.

So I think I can put 2 20a 220 v breakers in my subpanel, replacing the 110v breakers that are in there now. I assume the conductor currently servicing the sub is sufficient. What size wire would I use from the subpanel to my 220 outlets? I need two outlets, I would put each on its own breaker. One outlet about 15 ft from breaker, the other about 30 feet away. I was thinking 12-3 but maybe it needs to be bigger? Each of these two outlets would support two timers. Each timer has 1-1000w and 1-600w light. Also a 16 inch occillating fan on each outlet.

 

[legallyflying]

ok first things first. You can't run your fan on 220... but I'm sure there is an easy work around.

On the ballasts, as per code..220 outlets have the horizontal prongs, not the vertical ones like your standard outlet. But in this case, fuck code. Just use standard wall outlets and the ballast cords you have. Will save you a decent amount of cash. YOU MUST WRITE 220 IN PERMANENT MARKER ON THE OUTLETS!! that will prevent you or some other person plugging in a non 220 appliance and frying it. That is the major reason for the different style plugs.

In terms of wire size to the outlets, like I said, amps is amps. A 12 is rated for 20 amps. 3600/220 = 15 plus another 2-3 for ballast draw/inefficiency. 12 gauge will work for you.

Additional note: Most 220 timers have only one receptacle. They are $20 a pop and I hate syncing timers so I did the following for a work around... Shit..you are going to have to have at least one 220 rated outlet with the horizontal prongs for the timer.

Anyways.. I have 6 600's running on a 30 amp 220 breaker. It goes like this... 10 gauge wire ran to first 220 style outlet then chained to an additional 220 outlet.

There is a 220 timer plugged into each of those timers. Now, I have a total of 6 ballasts. So what I did was wire a double outlet box with some 12 gauge wire I had and put a 220 plug on the end of it. So when I plug that wire into the timer... It gives power to a total of 4 outlets.

If you don't catch what I'm saying let me know and I will take a picture.

I'm kind of busy today though. I'm installing my brand new 18,000 split air con.

 

[mixmaster1314]

There is a 220 timer plugged into each of those timers. Now, I have a total of 6 ballasts. So what I did was wire a double outlet box with some 12 gauge wire I had and put a 220 plug on the end of it. So when I plug that wire into the timer... It gives power to a total of 4 outlets.

If you don't catch what I'm saying let me know and I will take a picture.

I'm kind of busy today though. I'm installing my brand new 18,000 split air con.

Take a pic could ya? i wanna see exactly what you mean.

 

[mrmadcow]

it sounds like going to 220 or replacing your service drop will not solve your problem.each timer with 1600 watts on a dedicated 115v 20 amp breaker will only draw 15 amps.->>>> if both breakers are on the same leg it could be a problem.<<<<
what else is on that subpanel? (a 15 or 20 amp circuit w/ a few outlets for fans and such would be nice.)
your overheating could be the result of a bad conection. if the 50 amp breaker is tripping,you need to run a larger breaker and wire to the sub panel. if your 100 amp main is tripping, you will need to go to a 200 amp service and most likely replace the cable to your meter and riser.
post more details & someone can give u a better idea.

 

[Murfy]

if you are doing this yourself-
AND feel comfortable, check into contactors.
it's a double pole, single throw 220V switch, activated by a 110V electromagnetic coil. and it draws milliamps. the switch is most times 30 amps. that means at 5A per lamp in controls 4 lamps safely (accounting for continuous duty). one 15 amp timer from wally world would run about 25 of these boxes, because the trigger circuit is such low draw.

they can be built for 30 dollars in parts from any supply house.

happy growing.

edit: cow is right. the load needs to be balanced across the box, meaning drawing the same amount of base load from each leg from the street.
do some research. figuring it out is easy, 2+2 is ALWAYS 4.

 

[tet1953]

Shit I forgot about timers. I get what you are doing with the timers, great idea. So I'll use 12-3 to each of the two outlets that service my two rooms. I'll do what you did with the timer and I will do the same. If I end up using the 110 cables I'll be sure and mark the 4-outlet boxes accordingly.

So a single 220v timer can handle 3200w of light?

I also forgot about the fans, but you are correct that is an easy workaround.

Thanks everybody for your input. I think this is going to solve my problem. I gotta get a couple 220 timers though.

 

[tet1953]

it sounds like going to 220 or replacing your service drop will not solve your problem.each timer with 1600 watts on a dedicated 115v 20 amp breaker will only draw 15 amps.->>>> if both breakers are on the same leg it could be a problem.<<<<
what else is on that subpanel? (a 15 or 20 amp circuit w/ a few outlets for fans and such would be nice.)
your overheating could be the result of a bad conection. if the 50 amp breaker is tripping,you need to run a larger breaker and wire to the sub panel. if your 100 amp main is tripping, you will need to go to a 200 amp service and most likely replace the cable to your meter and riser.
post more details & someone can give u a better idea.

mrmadcow it may well have been a bad connection on that neutral wire, I did need to tighten. I still like the idea of going 220 for lights though.

 

[Murfy]

the neutral is most important-

ALWAYS torqued.

 

[mrmadcow]

.... I still like the idea of going 220 for lights though.

your call, lot of time & effort for NO advantage unless you plan to add a few more lights.
if you want to go to 220 for the lights,instead of replacing your timers, you could use a 110 timer to trip a relay like this
http://ribrelays.com/Products/Power-Relays/RIB2401B.html
$15. it will turn on/off w/ a small amount of 110 or 24 volts ac/dc and can switch 20 amps of 220.

 

[panhead]

ok first things first. You can't run your fan on 220... but I'm sure there is an easy work around.

On the ballasts, as per code..220 outlets have the horizontal prongs, not the vertical ones like your standard outlet. But in this case, fuck code. Just use standard wall outlets and the ballast cords you have. Will save you a decent amount of cash. YOU MUST WRITE 220 IN PERMANENT MARKER ON THE OUTLETS!! that will prevent you or some other person plugging in a non 220 appliance and frying it. That is the major reason for the different style plugs.

In terms of wire size to the outlets, like I said, amps is amps. A 12 is rated for 20 amps. 3600/220 = 15 plus another 2-3 for ballast draw/inefficiency. 12 gauge will work for you.

Additional note: Most 220 timers have only one receptacle. They are $20 a pop and I hate syncing timers so I did the following for a work around... Shit..you are going to have to have at least one 220 rated outlet with the horizontal prongs for the timer.

Anyways.. I have 6 600's running on a 30 amp 220 breaker. It goes like this... 10 gauge wire ran to first 220 style outlet then chained to an additional 220 outlet.

There is a 220 timer plugged into each of those timers. Now, I have a total of 6 ballasts. So what I did was wire a double outlet box with some 12 gauge wire I had and put a 220 plug on the end of it. So when I plug that wire into the timer... It gives power to a total of 4 outlets.

If you don't catch what I'm saying let me know and I will take a picture.

I'm kind of busy today though. I'm installing my brand new 18,000 split air con.

Slick idea brother,im remembering that trick,so simple but solves alot of issues,im pretty sure i have a use for that idea in one of our grows.

Thanks.

 

[tet1953]

Wow, what a simple, elegant solution to my problem, legallyflying. I got one room set up already, except for the timer which I'll pick up when the store opens. I got the 220 breaker, outlet, and 4-outlet box set up. Tested the 4-way with a couple ballasts, looking good.

I discovered a couple of bonuses: First, I thought I was going to have to change my wire from the panel to 12-3 (from 12-2), but not so. There's just no neutral. At least, that's what the elec guy at home depot told me. I went with that, and it seems fine. Second I thought I was gonna have to make the 220 plugs you described for connecting the 4-way to the timer, but I happened to have a couple of the 220 cables that sometimes come with ballasts. I just cut the end of that.

This really saved my butt. I was really unable to run all my lights cuz to do so the way I was set would have burned the house down. While I was stupid enough to overload things, I was at least wise enough to keep a careful eye on it Should be great now. Thanks again!

 

[tet1953]

Sweet...all set up.

2 rooms - 2 20a 220v circuits (one each)

For each room:
220v timer sits on outlet from 20a circuit
patch cord from timer to 4 outlet box
4 ballasts (2x 1K and 2x 600) in 4 outlet box

Awesome, no problems.

 

[legallyflying]

Nice Work! I came up with that idea when I saw the cost of the 220 cords and even more, the 220 outlets.

the only thing about my "all in one plug" setup is that its technically not to code because you have an exposed wire that has like 10-20 amps flowing through it. Not a huge deal cause I figure its no different than the power cord on a welder or anything else. Just don't drive a staple or something in it.

 

[tet1953]

This is probably common sense for most folks, but I recommend that you resist the urge to coil up and make tidy all your ballast cables, etc. A coiled up wire with lots of current running through it has a lot more resistance than if you just let it drape. That's why it gets so hot. That heat is energy loss for one thing, and not the safest thing for another (I should talk, eh?)

 

[legallyflying]

Take a pic could ya? i wanna see exactly what you mean.

Like this..

The cord that plugs into a single 220 timer powers four outllets. Careful that you don't exceed the load rating on the timer. I think its 10 amps or so.