Question My Beliefs, But Be Prepared To Answer For Yours :)

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
I can't understand how some people could believe a creature like bigfoot exists. Wouldn't we have some kind of skeleton from a dead bigfoot by now?
I realize I am preaching to the choir, but this was an early question of mine when I discovered skepticism. At first I was fascinated by paranormal claims. I was an avid fan of sightings and any sort of weirdness I could read about. I then had the fortune to work with a guy for several years who was the absolute authority on all things fringe. He spent most days filling me in on all sorts of things I had never heard of: Illuminati, known alien species, mysterious creatures, JFK, alternative medicine, you name it. I used to be impressed because he amassed all this knowledge without ever having used the internet. Now I realize he simply listened to Art Bell once a week. At some point I started to realize that although I was fascinated by all these things, none of them really convinced me to the point of belief. Most of it seemed untrue, which had a lot to do with the sort of wacky people it came from. But still, there were serious researches and what not dedicated to finding answers. So my fascination then became, why do people believe there is something to answer?

Much of the paranormal world is in no way confined to mental illness. Take ghosts for example. Ghostly experiences are something that transcend culture, geographic location, era, and upbringing. From Inuits to native Americans to ghost hunters of today, all are describing similar experiences. If ghosts are not real, then why do so many different people from different backgrounds see them? Why do so many people report seeing Bigfoot when we have no definitive evidence that they are out there? Why do so many people feel they have psychic powers and even demonstrate them to a degree if there is nothing to it? Why does science deny UFO sightings when they are worldwide and evidenced by hundreds of videos?

The answers to those questions are both complicated and, to most people, mundane. As I have said many times, it can mostly be boiled down to certain mistakes that are inherit to the human experience. Mistakes of perception, logic and memory all play a part, as well as hoax and deceit. Also pointed out, these mistakes take educational training, vigilance, and practice to spot.

In the case of Bigfoot and Nessie we certainly have many hoaxes and mistakes of perception, but perhaps the most driving motivation is a mistake of logic known as the appeal to ignorance. For some reason humans are really impressed by what we do not know, and twist that impression into support for a belief. Because water is concealing and we have vast oceans largely unexplored, it's easy to believe that anything could be down there. Forests used to be unknown territory that could be hiding anything. Couple that inclination with a report of a creature, and that report automatically seems to have credence. Once that report gets into the public consciousness, it gets duplicated more and more often. Our brains tell us that the more people confirm something, the more true it becomes. This isn't necessarily wrong. What we get wrong is what the reports are actually confirming, which is mistakes of perception and gullibility for hoaxes. Add to this the idea of modern science and some people who do not understand how to properly follow the scientific method, and we get Bigfoot and ghost hunters. This is then made worse by those who forget a basic rule of science; extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

I never tire of examining why people believe weird things but it can be a dry subject for most people. Which is unfortunate because the subject dictates the very fabric that makes up their personal experience of reality.
 
wait so what you saying is that science works only with natural laws, does that mean the condition that changed the law in the beginning was super natural? As to the virtual particals mentioned before, I do believe that they can only come into being if the laws of physics are in existence, which is hardly nothing.
 

ginjawarrior

Well-Known Member
wait so what you saying is that science works only with natural laws, does that mean the condition that changed the law in the beginning was super natural? As to the virtual particals mentioned before, I do believe that they can only come into being if the laws of physics are in existence, which is hardly nothing.
goto 25 mins in
[video=youtube;rQ8rd7AkMmY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQ8rd7AkMmY&feature=related[/video]
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
wait so what you saying is that science works only with natural laws, does that mean the condition that changed the law in the beginning was super natural?
I am saying science is a study of the natural world, so it's only limits are reality, and then I said you don't understand what the big bang says, which is why you think thermodynamic laws were violated and thus needed to be changed.
 

Luger187

Well-Known Member
Right! He is an amazing kid. We raised him free of mysticism: no Santa/Fairytales, no Disney, no gods. Heavy on the science and skepticism: he loves physics, esp. cosmology and biology. He wants to work toward biological immortality, at least greatly retarding the aging process. His reasoning is that it would be the greatest value ever offered: if we didn't age. we would have time to discover everything else. I let him know that I think most theists wouldn't want this product as they have their afterlife, to which he replied, 'That's okay...' Who's the proud papa? :)
sounds like a great kid man!
 
Ok, so first you say

The laws of thermodynamics are not facts, they are expressions of phenomena we observe to always be the same under certain conditions.

then

Science works under any conditions that are of the natural world.

So is that any condition or certain conditions, because as far as I know there is only the natural world/universe

Which still leaves the question, where did matter and energy come from? Who made up the laws of physics? Science discovered them, they didn't invent them, show me the guy who invented gravity, anyone?
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Ok, so first you say

The laws of thermodynamics are not facts, they are expressions of phenomena we observe to always be the same under certain conditions.

then

Science works under any conditions that are of the natural world.

So is that any condition or certain conditions, because as far as I know there is only the natural world/universe
"Science" is one term, which I have twice defined as a systematic way of carefully and thoroughly observing nature while using consistent logic to evaluate the results.

"Law" is a second term, and in the context of science means an expression of phenomena we observe to always be the same under certain conditions.

You conflate the two terms in your response. You could have easily figured this out if you had given careful thought to what I wrote and/or looked up the terms yourself. The critical eye should always look inward before it looks outward. For example, I considered that your misunderstanding could be a result of my failure to adequately explain before I concluded that you are lazy minded and obliviously ignorant about the subject.

Which still leaves the question, where did matter and energy come from? Who made up the laws of physics? Science discovered them, they didn't invent them, show me the guy who invented gravity, anyone?
The birth of matter/energy and the origin of universal truths are questions science is trying to answer. Science has relatively very little answers at this time, but the answers we do have came from a evidential view of reality supported by multiple independent fields of study. Do you somehow think that scientist believe they invented the laws of nature and now you are informing us that they were instead discovered? Well lets get you a cookie!

The questions you are asking are valid questions that I actually encourage; how else are we to cure ignorance unless we seek knowledge. What I find distasteful is the arrogance your attitude suggests, an arrogance that's derived directly from your ignorance.
 
If I'm ignorant then you're confused dude, you seem to nicely miss out the problems/contradictions within your logic, as I have previously stated. However I am glad we are finally getting somewhere, Science cannot explain matter creation, which I knew already but need some confirmation from the atheists here. So now my next question, why is it impossible for there to be a creator, a being or energy that not only created matter but all the laws that science is discovering.

Funny you should mention arrogance, humans are an arrogant species aren't they? Who else would presume to say that they speak for God, or that there is no God based on no evidence.

btw Heisenberg, I really do value your opinion regardless of what you may think of mehttps://www.rollitup.org/members/heisenberg-229726.html
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
If I'm ignorant then you're confused dude, you seem to nicely miss out the problems/contradictions within your logic, as I have previously stated. However I am glad we are finally getting somewhere, Science cannot explain matter creation, which I knew already but need some confirmation from the atheists here.
I accept the possibility that I am confused. I am aware of the logical problems with the origins of reality. If before there was something, there was nothing, and if nothing means there was no spacetime, how did this nothing even exist. Was it less than nothing? This is obviously counter intuitive and would indeed violate the laws of thermodynamics. What I am confused about is the contradictions you speak of in this context. Since the big bang doesn't say there was 'nothing' or that energy at one time didn't exist, it is not contradicting any laws. Your posts seemed to indicate that the big bang, or some other scientific consensus, indicates nothing before something or describes energy being created, so where did I get confused? All explanations regarding the origins of reality are in the early theoretical stages, and so there is no consensus. There is a sort of consensus about the big bang, but not simply because of the (very few) answers it gives us. It's because the theory was constructed by building on other sound scientific discoveries and has been significantly backed up by independent testing. It makes predictions which have been confirmed via methods such as particle acceleration. None of this stuff makes it the right theory, but it is enough to give us a consensus on the early model. The big bang describes a singularity, not a nothing, and does not require the total energy of the universe to be a different sum than it is now.

So now my next question, why is it impossible for there to be a creator, a being or energy that not only created matter but all the laws that science is discovering.
It's not impossible, not at all. Science does not say it is impossible, skepticism does not say it's impossible. Atheism does not say it's impossible.

Funny you should mention arrogance, humans are an arrogant species aren't they? Who else would presume to say that they speak for God, or that there is no God based on no evidence.
We have spent entire threads trying to explain this, so please consider what I am about to say. Yes, there are some people who say there is no evidence for god, therefore god does not exist. Those people by default are atheists. Atheists are not by default those people. An atheist is simply someone who is not convinced by the theists argument. The theist has not provided enough support neither evidential or logical to draw the conclusion of a deity. Atheism is an answer to the question, "do you conclude that there is a god". The question of "do you conclude there is no god" is a completely separate issue which requires it's own support. Most rational skeptics will answer no to both questions. The current knowledge of the universe as understood by humans makes it impossible to say one way or the other with absolute certainty. We can only say, we have no evidence of god and none is likely to be forthcoming, but if evidence was to be discovered and was sufficient, we would then have no choice but to believe. The scientific method dictates we follow evidence wherever it leads. So in short, those atheists who claim there is no god do so in addition to and outside of atheism, skepticism and science.

The idea that our current state of understanding does not allow us to make any conclusions about god's existence is not agnosticism. Agnostic people are answering a different question, which is "do you believe god is knowable". The distinction is, agnosticism can be applied to both and an atheistic and theistic view. You can be unconvinced of a deity and your reason could be that you don't believe the matter is knowable. That would make you an agnostic atheist. You can also believe there is a deity, but believe some or all aspects of him are unknowable. That makes you an agnostic theist. Agnosticism is an opinion about comprehension, not about god's existence.

btw Heisenberg, I really do value your opinion regardless of what you may think of me
I have not formed a solid opinion about you, but you will find me much more civil to those who take a humble approach to ignorance and questioning, rather than brazenly submit assertions which are disguised as questions and based on misunderstanding. If I misjudged you then I apologize.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
However I am glad we are finally getting somewhere, Science cannot explain matter creation, which I knew already but need some confirmation from the atheists here.
lol I could smell that a mile away... not very subtle..

So now my next question, why is it impossible for there to be a creator, a being or energy that not only created matter but all the laws that science is discovering.
Quote the atheist who said it was.

This atheist is saying show me the evidence that says there is.


Funny you should mention arrogance, humans are an arrogant species aren't they? Who else would presume ... that there is no God based on no evidence.
Who else would assume there is a god based on no evidence but an arrogant person?

Who would be so arrogant as to say "your science can't explain the beginning so my unexplainable theory WINS! Game over!". You sir, have yet to explain this beginning entity that created existence. He would have to be just as complex as the entire universe itself, would it not? How would you presume an entity like that would simply 'Pop!" into existence?

You can always ask the question "how is matter/energy created if there isn't a creator?" but I can always counter with "well, what created the creator?". This gets us nowhere, in either situation we fall into an infinite regress situation. Neither of us has an answer for what ultimately started creating things, so both arguments are rendered moot.

...and that is the end of that argument. What else do you have?

btw Heisenberg, I really do value your opinion regardless of what you may think of me
Although that was directed at Heis, I'd like to return the comment your way. I appreciate this kind of conversation, regardless of opinions. You're doing a great job at keeping it impersonal.

+rep
 

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
Which still leaves the question, where did matter and energy come from? Who made up the laws of physics? Science discovered them, they didn't invent them, show me the guy who invented gravity, anyone?
This is called begging the question and is a logical fallacy. You are assuming there is a "who" in the questions. It could just as easily be a what. Why do you think the natural laws were created by a who or a guy? Have you considered the possibility that the laws of nature might end up being explained naturally?

14.7 billion years ago, our universe was very small and there was no matter, it was a seething, hot point of pure energy. For some reason this hot, dense point of energy began to expand rapidly. As it did, it cooled off enough to allow matter to form from energy, something that can be replicated in the lab today. There is nothing that says this small, hot universe didn't always exist or that it couldn't have formed by a natural process. Introducing an intelligent creator begs the question of how did such complex intelligence arise in the first place? No one knows of any example anywhere in the universe that complexity, let alone intelligence can arise spontaneously.
 

tyler.durden

Well-Known Member
Ok, so first you say

The laws of thermodynamics are not facts, they are expressions of phenomena we observe to always be the same under certain conditions.

then

Science works under any conditions that are of the natural world.

So is that any condition or certain conditions, because as far as I know there is only the natural world/universe

Which still leaves the question, where did matter and energy come from? Who made up the laws of physics? Science discovered them, they didn't invent them, show me the guy who invented gravity, anyone?
I'm not intending to be mean, but there is definitely such things as silly questions. Just because one takes English words and puts them together with a question mark at the end doesn't mean it's a legitimate question (i.e. what is the color of jealousy? or, why is the floor on the bottom and the ceiling on top?). You ask who invented the laws of physics and who invented gravity? These are not legitimate questions, and they presuppose that a person created these things. How could a person, formed under the laws of physics create said laws? How could someone invent gravity when already subjected to it? These guys are cool to answer your questions, but really you could simply Google questions of origin and start learning these basics on your own...

P.S. Positing a creator of the universe answers nothing, but instead creates a much larger problem than the one your attempting to explain. However difficult it is to answer a given problem, it's a far greater problem to answer the origins of an omniscient, omnipotent advanced being...
 

olylifter420

Well-Known Member
they are blind to that fact bro...



If I'm ignorant then you're confused dude, you seem to nicely miss out the problems/contradictions within your logic, as I have previously stated. However I am glad we are finally getting somewhere, Science cannot explain matter creation, which I knew already but need some confirmation from the atheists here. So now my next question, why is it impossible for there to be a creator, a being or energy that not only created matter but all the laws that science is discovering.

Funny you should mention arrogance, humans are an arrogant species aren't they? Who else would presume to say that they speak for God, or that there is no God based on no evidence.

btw Heisenberg, I really do value your opinion regardless of what you may think of mehttps://www.rollitup.org/members/heisenberg-229726.html
 

olylifter420

Well-Known Member
arrogance? who made you some perfect being? that is some straight up arrogance right there, but i will be wrong, only because you say so.



"Science" is one term, which I have twice defined as a systematic way of carefully and thoroughly observing nature while using consistent logic to evaluate the results.

"Law" is a second term, and in the context of science means an expression of phenomena we observe to always be the same under certain conditions.

You conflate the two terms in your response. You could have easily figured this out if you had given careful thought to what I wrote and/or looked up the terms yourself. The critical eye should always look inward before it looks outward. For example, I considered that your misunderstanding could be a result of my failure to adequately explain before I concluded that you are lazy minded and obliviously ignorant about the subject.



The birth of matter/energy and the origin of universal truths are questions science is trying to answer. Science has relatively very little answers at this time, but the answers we do have came from a evidential view of reality supported by multiple independent fields of study. Do you somehow think that scientist believe they invented the laws of nature and now you are informing us that they were instead discovered? Well lets get you a cookie!

The questions you are asking are valid questions that I actually encourage; how else are we to cure ignorance unless we seek knowledge. What I find distasteful is the arrogance your attitude suggests, an arrogance that's derived directly from your ignorance.
 

karri0n

Well-Known Member
Heh, I was taking it easy on him because he is new.

Back to the topic that no one cares about, another example of irrational behavior even skeptics are prone to is discussed here.

The idea is that once we pick something like a brand or sports team we eventually incorporate that into our identities. We then defend those icons when they are attacked as if someone was attacking us personally. Think about all the mac vs PC fights on the net. Occasionally if our brands really let us down, we then claim the brand has betrayed us, and justify loyalty to a new brand.

How many of you are sports fans that feel elated when your team wins, and take it personally when your team looses?
I've read some interestng things on the phenomena of brad loyalty as well, and one thing I found particularly interesting is that the same areas of the brain have been observed to be activated when someone is talking about a brand they are loyal to, as when someone is talking about their religion. The same has been observed when either the brand or the religion is challenged, as well.
 

karri0n

Well-Known Member
This is called begging the question and is a logical fallacy. You are assuming there is a "who" in the questions. It could just as easily be a what. Why do you think the natural laws were created by a who or a guy? Have you considered the possibility that the laws of nature might end up being explained naturally?
Setting aside the fallacious assertion that a creator or deity would necessarily be something "unnatural"....

The common modern understanding is along lines that you are bordering on here. By this model, the true essence of deity is indeed a natural force, and really can't be described as a "who" or a "guy". It is essentially described as the creative force; that which inexplicably causes a near infinite set of variables to arrange into patterns that support the existence of matter, planets, and eventually life. This concept can be seen in some older systems as well, and be described as "order" as opposed to chaos, which would seemingly be the result if all of reality were subject only to random chance.

While the the existence of a singular being, creator, or intelligence cannot be scientifically ruled out, it seems to me that a more likely model would be something of a collective - similar to an ant colony, where while any single member has little to no autonomy or self awareness, as a collective, masterworks of engineering including heating, cooling, and ventilation systems that not only rival but far surpass those that man is capable of making are designed, built, and put into use:


[video=youtube;tyBf3GcGX64]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyBf3GcGX64[/video]
.
http://quotations.hubpages.com/hub/Intelligent_Ants
 

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
Setting aside the fallacious assertion that a creator or deity would necessarily be something "unnatural"....
It's not fallacious, it's part of the claim that's made when using the term god or deity. Transcendent and outside of nature are minimum attributes that belong to god(s). If not, then we aren't really talking about god.


The common modern understanding is along lines that you are bordering on here. By this model, the true essence of deity is indeed a natural force, and really can't be described as a "who" or a "guy".
look again at what I wrote. The assumption that there is a "who" is exactly what I said was incorrect. You appear to be agreeing with me.

It is essentially described as the creative force; that which inexplicably causes a near infinite set of variables to arrange into patterns that support the existence of matter, planets, and eventually life. This concept can be seen in some older systems as well, and be described as "order" as opposed to chaos, which would seemingly be the result if all of reality were subject only to random chance.

While the the existence of a singular being, creator, or intelligence cannot be scientifically ruled out, it seems to me that a more likely model would be something of a collective - similar to an ant colony, where while any single has little to no autonomy or self awareness, as a collective, masterworks of engineering including heating, cooling, and ventilation systems that not only rival but far surpass those that man is capable of making are designed, built, and put into use:

Pantheism -- the identification of "god" with nature -- is a well known instance of naturalistic theism. But the pantheist (or any alleged theist who wishes to describe his god soley in naturalistic terms ) is open to the charge of reducing his god to triviality. If god is take to be synonymous with nature or some aspect of the natural universe, we may then ask why the term "god" is used at all. It is superfluous and highly misleading. The label of "god" serves no function, except perhaps to create confusion), and one must suspect the naturalistic theist is simply an atheist who would rather avoid this designation.
~George H. Smith, author Atheism - The Case Against God

Or another take on it
Pantheism Is Confused Atheism
 
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