Is Time An Illusion?

Finshaggy

Well-Known Member
Here I didn't write this....


Does Time Really Exist?
Question: Does Time Really Exist?
Sometimes people talk about how Einstein proved that everything is relative. In the bestselling book The Secret, it says "Time is just an illusion." Is this really true? Is time just a figment of our imagination?
Answer: Time is certainly a very complex topic in physics, but there is no real doubt among physicists that time does really, truly exist ... they're just divided a bit on what causes this existence.
The Arrow of Time and Entropy

The phrase "the arrow of time" was coined in 1927 by Sir Arthur Eddington and popularized in his 1928 book The Nature of the Physical World. Basically, the arrow of time is the idea that time flows in only one direction, as opposed to dimensions of space which have no preferred orientation. Eddington makes three specific points in regards to the arrow of time:
It is vividly recognized by consciousness.
It is equally insisted on by our reasoning faculty, which tells us that a reversal of the arrow would render the external world nonsensical.
It makes no appearance in physical science except in the study of organisation of a number of individuals. Here the arrow indicates the direction of progressive increase of the random element.
The first two points are certainly interesting, but it's the third point that captures the physics of time's arrow. The distinguishing factor of the arrow of time is that it points in the direction of increasing entropy, per the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Things in our universe decay as a course of natural, time-based processes ... but they do not spontaneously regain order without a lot of work.
There's a deeper level to what Eddington says in point three, however, and that is that "It makes no appearance in physical science except..." What does that mean? Time is all over the place in physics!

While this is certainly true, the curious thing is that the laws of physics are "time reversible" ... which is to say that the laws themselves look as if they would work perfectly well if the universe were played in reverse. From a physics standpoint, there's no real reason why the arrow of time should by necessity be moving forward.

The most common explanation is that in the very distant past, the universe had a high degree of order (or low entropy). Because of this "boundary condition," the natural laws are such that the entropy is continuously increasing. (This is the basic argument put forth in Sean Carroll's 2010 book From Eternity to Here: The Quest for the Ultimate Theory of Time, though he goes further to suggest possible explanations for why the universe may have started off with so much order.)

The Secret and Time

One common misconception spread by an unclear discussion of the nature of relativity and other physics related to time is that time does not, in fact, exist at all. This comes across in a number of areas that are commonly classified as pseudoscience or even mysticism, but I'd like to address one particular appearance in this article.
In the best-selling self-help book (and video) The Secret, the authors put forth the notion that physicists have proven that time does not exist. Consider a few of the following lines from section "How Long Does It Take?" in the chapter "How to Use the Secret" from the book:

"Time is just an illusion. Einstein told us that."
"What quantum physicists and Einstein tell us is that everything is happening simultaneously."

"There is no time for the Universe and there is no size for the Universe."

All three of the statements above are categorically false, according most physicists (especially Einstein!). Time is actually an integral part of the universe. As mentioned earlier, the very linear concept of time is tied into the concept of the Second Law of Thermodynamics ... which is seen by many physicists as one of the most important laws in all of physics! Without time as a real property of the universe, the Second Law becomes meaningless.
What is true is that Einstein proved, through his theory of relativity, that time by itself was not an absolute quantity. Rather, time and space are united in a very precise way to form spacetime, and this spacetime is an absolute measure that can be used - again, in a very precise, mathematical way - to determine how different physical processes in different locations interact with each other.

This does not mean that everything is happening simultaneously, however. In fact, Einstein firmly believed - based on the evidence of his equations (such as E = mc2) - that no information can travel faster than the speed of light. Every point in spacetime is limited in the way it can communicate with other regions of spacetime. The idea that everything happens simultaneously is exactly counter to the results that Einstein developed.

This and other physics errors in The Secret are perfectly understandable, because the fact is these are very complex topics, and they are not necessarily completely understood by physicists. However, just because physicists don't necessarily have a complete understanding of a concept such as time does not mean that it's valid to say they have no understanding of time, or that they've written off the whole concept as unreal. They most assuredly have not.
I said a LONG time ago, in the thread this discussion started on that this was not along the lines of established science. It is something I have noticed. You odn't compare it by looking for facts. You read the stuff, THEN realize in your own mind that some of it is wrong when you REALLY think about time and space.
 

Finshaggy

Well-Known Member
Yes, measuring change and the change is real, therefore time is real. Time is merely the name we give to the fact that things change. No one has said it is material or substantive but time is real because it passes.
The change is real, but time is not. It is but a measurement.
 

Hepheastus420

Well-Known Member
Really? If you didn't put that disclaimer there, I would have thought it was all you!!

jk


Seriously, good post. I don't know why the 'like' link isn't showing in some posts but I like this.
Lol just making sure the new users of RIU don't think I'm some superior super genius.
 

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
NOO. Time is a measurement. Which we have the illusion of being real. BECAUSE of things like deterioration, clocks, the sun, age. We believe in it. But all of those things are just side effects of the invention of time. YES we still age and deteriorate without time. But that is because time is not there to effect it to begin with.
 

asafan69

Well-Known Member
I always thought there was no time or space, but there was something called space-time which is different from both. So, it is correct to say there is no such thing as time because time does not exist by itself it is interwoven with space creating space-time. At least that's what I thought the gist of Einstein was saying.
 

Luger187

Well-Known Member
a few weeks ago i read a book called 'slaughterhouse five'. its got some cool time concepts in it. the aliens can see in the 4th dimension, so they see all events in their lives at once. they see stars as long spaghetti strands because they move around over time in the sky. they see humans as long centipedes with baby legs at one end, and old person legs at the other. it was a good read
 

Stark Raving

Active Member
I really want to tear my hair out here.

Time is not a measurement. Hours are measurements.

Length is not a measurement. Inches are measurements.

So when you compare time to inches you are not using sound logic.

Also, repeatedly claiming time is not real in capitol letters does not make it true.

Time to learn the basics of logic before debating something as complex as time. Something that is "real" does not have to be changeable. Just because you can't reverse time does not make it an illusion.

Unfortunately, Shaggy is making several absurd claims to overwhelm and appear "philosophical". For example, the whole "the words on this screen are not real" argument. Sorry man, but you have yet to back up a single claim you've made. Your arguments are just that. Saying something for the sake of argument.

I'm not saying that it's not possible that time is not "real", but the terms have not been clearly defined, and the claims have not been clearly demonstrated. Once these things have been done, I would be happy to discuss the topic, but until then, it's nothing but spewing baloney.

Out.
 

Finshaggy

Well-Known Member
I always thought there was no time or space, but there was something called space-time which is different from both. So, it is correct to say there is no such thing as time because time does not exist by itself it is interwoven with space creating space-time. At least that's what I thought the gist of Einstein was saying.
That is what he was saying. But I noticed something weird about what he said hold on I'll get it...

I only believe him to be wrong in this instance based on what I can figure out on my own. There is NO REASON for anything to be going through a slower time or going through time slower in the situation presented. All of the images are going the speed of light, your brain is receiving it late though because of how fast oyu are going, so you are seeing a delayed image, AND the light took longer because you were at relative speed too it. It is not as if you could reacch into this image and TRULY effect what happened in it. It is just the light from the actions that were happening. It is not the actions themselves.
 

Finshaggy

Well-Known Member
Time isn't real. It's an imaginary real thing(like Santa), based on a real measurement we have(Like history is for Santa).
 

Finshaggy

Well-Known Member
This is like arguing if god is "real", it's opinion. It depends what you call god, and what you call real.
 

Finshaggy

Well-Known Member
You guys say age and deterioration proves time. I say that that proves cells deteriorate, and that we'll make up a word to define it to make it easier to understand. It's just a difference in opinion.
 

olylifter420

Well-Known Member
my pit does it at the field that we go train at... he attacks the sprinkler systems then goes and deflates my soccer ball...



lol my pit bull used to do that with the hose when i was washing the cars. he would jump from side to side, catching the water in his mouth as he flew by. he would do it until he choked and threw up lol
 

olylifter420

Well-Known Member
this all goes back to what i have been saying all along. we are relative to time... as soon as we die, our time stops, but time on earth and the universe continues on and will continue to do so until acted upon by some external force..

does that not make sense?



You guys say age and deterioration proves time. I say that that proves cells deteriorate, and that we'll make up a word to define it to make it easier to understand. It's just a difference in opinion.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
"Abstract" and "imaginary" are not the same thing. Santa is imaginary. An isosceles triangle is abstract. Time is an abstract concept but I would not go so far as to call it imaginary or unreal. cn
 

canniboss

Well-Known Member
Time and space are the same thing... it's also known as spacetime. Time and space also form gravity.
The Big Bang itself is the moment where TIME and space began. There is no real measurement for time because no two seconds are the same, they are constantly changing lengths due to gravity (and how it tends to warp spacetime.)
The way that you know that there is time is because you don't do everything all at once. (Although one theory states that each millisecond is its own dimension and that as time passes we travel through different dimensions).
Oh and if none of this makes any sense it's because it doesn't.
 

THENUMBER1022

Well-Known Member
to claim that you have such a better understanding of 'god' only further proves your close mindedness, finshaggy. Just because these concepts give answers to lifes great mysteries - doesn't mean they are truth or fact. The questions regarding gods and creators have not gone away just because we are exploring space. Just because your idea of god is creation itself does not make it the only plausible concept. I am as far as you get from religious but I am very spiritual, they can be considered the same thing but the fact remains that no one knows.

We can claim that you know after you die but thats wishful thinking. Realistically, we should just accept that we do not know and probably never will, and allow people to draw their own conclusions.

Time is only as much of an illusion as our sun, which is just as critical to our existence as time itself. The definition of what is real is non-imaginary and non-supposed. That leaves a huge window or reality to be manipulated. Does it ultimately matter, what you consider to be real? Or can we generate a book of 'real' ideas to feed a nation of morons who are dying for answers. I think everything is real and everything is possible, its just a matter of how well you can explain it to your neighbor.
 

canniboss

Well-Known Member
There is no God, before the big bang there was no time. There was no time for God to create anything because time didn't exist Therefore; there is no God
 
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