Some quick points for you atheists / satanists.

Prefontaine

Well-Known Member
...suppose my idea of creation claims that they do but must wake to it first. No one on this side of the screen denies evolution. Christ is a consciousness. Jesus was the walker. Creator / Created - it's a sine wave of sorts. Sun / Moon and the 'us' in between.
YOU, mean because like sensory nerves are still growing into the tissue as motor skills are initially developed, but still whether creation is behind it or not, the brain is continually doing calculations when you walk down the street to control the mass of individual cells that make up the human body,
 

eye exaggerate

Well-Known Member
YOU, mean because like sensory nerves are still growing into the tissue as motor skills are initially developed, but still whether creation is behind it or not, the brain is continually doing calculations when you walk down the street to control the mass of individual cells that make up the human body,

...well sure it is, motor-instictual-sexual for that stuff, yes? Must take an intelligence to do all that work behind the scenes.
 

Prefontaine

Well-Known Member
...well sure it is, motor-instictual-sexual for that stuff, yes? Must take an intelligence to do all that work behind the scenes.
yes but the actual control, sensory data, and calculations are all performed through chemical reactions, therefore every one of those calculations can be broken down and mathematically represented in such a way that given the appropriate technology they could be exactly reproduced therefore you cannot use the shear complexity of life as proof of a higher power,
 

eye exaggerate

Well-Known Member
yes but the actual control, sensory data, and calculations are all performed through chemical reactions, therefore every one of those calculations can be broken down and mathematically represented in such a way that given the appropriate technology they could be exactly reproduced therefore you cannot use the shear complexity of life as proof of a higher power,
...I wouldn't use complexity as an excuse. I like to build stuff and make good use of calculations and technology. I feel that what is outside of me was there before me. Something was there before me. In a more micro / macro sense I'd say that it is the same with the universe. This is an oroborus type of conversation, by the way. I don't see what can be gained. You are saying that because something can be calculated a creative agent is not needed. You just might be that creative agent in my opinion. We haven't proved humans are capable being more or less peaceful regardless of who's at the helm. That's the baby metaphor. Has there been 1 outstanding invention that hasn't fallen prey to stupidity in tandem with intelligence? As soon as something decent is made for the better it's taken to extremes - usually because of money and power. My idea of creation is in the middle of that. It's power, not force... how about power before force?

Some people are called alchemists. I believe for a reason too.
 

Prefontaine

Well-Known Member
...I wouldn't use complexity as an excuse. I like to build stuff and make good use of calculations and technology. I feel that what is outside of me was there before me. Something was there before me. In a more micro / macro sense I'd say that it is the same with the universe. This is an oroborus type of conversation, by the way. I don't see what can be gained. You are saying that because something can be calculated a creative agent is not needed. You just might be that creative agent in my opinion. We haven't proved humans are capable being more or less peaceful regardless of who's at the helm. That's the baby metaphor. Has there been 1 outstanding invention that hasn't fallen prey to stupidity in tandem with intelligence? As soon as something decent is made for the better it's taken to extremes - usually because of money and power. My idea of creation is in the middle of that. It's power, not force... how about power before force?

Some people are called alchemists. I believe for a reason too.
i was responding to the analogy of the safe walk to the bookstore used earlier
 

MidWestAlki

Member
What I am gathering from all this is that I am supposed to believe in stories from a time when germs and bacteria were known as "EVIL SPIRITS." We have technology today that allows us to dictate what we are to do with these, cures, cultivation, and treatment regimens. I can recall history teaching us that humanity fears what it cannot understand and absolutely MUST find an explanation for everything. I feel the same reason we find a "GOD" is the same reason we burned "witches" for the disease and atrophy they apparently caused... These things we all know today to be caused by viral and bacterial infections of the body... Again, a way to cope with and explain the unknown...
 

eye exaggerate

Well-Known Member
What I am gathering from all this is that I am supposed to believe in stories from a time when germs and bacteria were known as "EVIL SPIRITS." We have technology today that allows us to dictate what we are to do with these, cures, cultivation, and treatment regimens. I can recall history teaching us that humanity fears what it cannot understand and absolutely MUST find an explanation for everything. I feel the same reason we find a "GOD" is the same reason we burned "witches" for the disease and atrophy they apparently caused... These things we all know today to be caused by viral and bacterial infections of the body... Again, a way to cope with and explain the unknown...


...I don't think that god was driving the stakes into people. I didn't see some grey haired old fellow at the gas station when dude was shot, you know? What would he use for a getaway car?

What if it was some kind of 'evil bacteria spirit' that did the attacking, it doesn't make a case for either side.

For better or for worse, here's an idea. It's from Blaise Pascal.

"If there is a God, He is infinitely incomprehensible, since, having neither parts nor limits, He has no affinity to us. We are then incapable of knowing either what He is or if He is....
..."God is, or He is not." But to which side shall we incline? Reason can decide nothing here. There is an infinite chaos which separated us. A game is being played at the extremity of this infinite distance where heads or tails will turn up. What will you wager? According to reason, you can do neither the one thing nor the other; according to reason, you can defend neither of the propositions.
Do not, then, reprove for error those who have made a choice; for you know nothing about it. "No, but I blame them for having made, not this choice, but a choice; for again both he who chooses heads and he who chooses tails are equally at fault, they are both in the wrong. The true course is not to wager at all."
Yes; but you must wager. It is not optional. You are embarked. Which will you choose then? Let us see. Since you must choose, let us see which interests you least. You have two things to lose, the true and the good; and two things to stake, your reason and your will, your knowledge and your happiness; and your nature has two things to shun, error and misery. Your reason is no more shocked in choosing one rather than the other, since you must of necessity choose. This is one point settled. But your happiness? Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager, then, without hesitation that He is.
"That is very fine. Yes, I must wager; but I may perhaps wager too much." Let us see. Since there is an equal risk of gain and of loss, if you had only to gain two lives, instead of one, you might still wager. But if there were three lives to gain, you would have to play (since you are under the necessity of playing), and you would be imprudent, when you are forced to play, not to chance your life to gain three at a game where there is an equal risk of loss and gain. But there is an eternity of life and happiness. And this being so, if there were an infinity of chances, of which one only would be for you, you would still be right in wagering one to win two, and you would act stupidly, being obliged to play, by refusing to stake one life against three at a game in which out of an infinity of chances there is one for you, if there were an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain. But there is here an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain, a chance of gain against a finite number of chances of loss, and what you stake is finite."
 

Hepheastus420

Well-Known Member
i respect that christians believe, as soon as i say i have questions all of a sudden im put into a category of atheist, its not that simple
ATHEIST!!!! Nah, Jk dude, ha.
Yup those people are called blind followers. The just block out every question that goes against their beliefs. Stubborn stubborn people, (please don't be offended) are you agnostic?
 

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
...I don't think that god was driving the stakes into people. I didn't see some grey haired old fellow at the gas station when dude was shot, you know? What would he use for a getaway car?

What if it was some kind of 'evil bacteria spirit' that did the attacking, it doesn't make a case for either side.

For better or for worse, here's an idea. It's from Blaise Pascal.

"If there is a God, He is infinitely incomprehensible, since, having neither parts nor limits, He has no affinity to us. We are then incapable of knowing either what He is or if He is....
..."God is, or He is not." But to which side shall we incline? Reason can decide nothing here. There is an infinite chaos which separated us. A game is being played at the extremity of this infinite distance where heads or tails will turn up. What will you wager? According to reason, you can do neither the one thing nor the other; according to reason, you can defend neither of the propositions.
Do not, then, reprove for error those who have made a choice; for you know nothing about it. "No, but I blame them for having made, not this choice, but a choice; for again both he who chooses heads and he who chooses tails are equally at fault, they are both in the wrong. The true course is not to wager at all."
Yes; but you must wager. It is not optional. You are embarked. Which will you choose then? Let us see. Since you must choose, let us see which interests you least. You have two things to lose, the true and the good; and two things to stake, your reason and your will, your knowledge and your happiness; and your nature has two things to shun, error and misery. Your reason is no more shocked in choosing one rather than the other, since you must of necessity choose. This is one point settled. But your happiness? Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager, then, without hesitation that He is.
"That is very fine. Yes, I must wager; but I may perhaps wager too much." Let us see. Since there is an equal risk of gain and of loss, if you had only to gain two lives, instead of one, you might still wager. But if there were three lives to gain, you would have to play (since you are under the necessity of playing), and you would be imprudent, when you are forced to play, not to chance your life to gain three at a game where there is an equal risk of loss and gain. But there is an eternity of life and happiness. And this being so, if there were an infinity of chances, of which one only would be for you, you would still be right in wagering one to win two, and you would act stupidly, being obliged to play, by refusing to stake one life against three at a game in which out of an infinity of chances there is one for you, if there were an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain. But there is here an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain, a chance of gain against a finite number of chances of loss, and what you stake is finite."
[video=youtube;v9WRG4e6m2s]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9WRG4e6m2s[/video]

[video=youtube;fZpJ7yUPwdU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZpJ7yUPwdU[/video]
 

Luger187

Well-Known Member
This isn't a stab at your post, it's an actual question. What is the general atheistic consensus on where math came from? - That you know of, at least, I'm not asking you to be the spokesperson. :)
you should read the book Zero by Charles Seife. its got a lot of history about math. mostly about zero though
 

MidWestAlki

Member
...I don't think that god was driving the stakes into people. I didn't see some grey haired old fellow at the gas station when dude was shot, you know? What would he use for a getaway car?

What if it was some kind of 'evil bacteria spirit' that did the attacking, it doesn't make a case for either side.

For better or for worse, here's an idea. It's from Blaise Pascal.

"If there is a God, He is infinitely incomprehensible, since, having neither parts nor limits, He has no affinity to us. We are then incapable of knowing either what He is or if He is....
..."God is, or He is not." But to which side shall we incline? Reason can decide nothing here. There is an infinite chaos which separated us. A game is being played at the extremity of this infinite distance where heads or tails will turn up. What will you wager? According to reason, you can do neither the one thing nor the other; according to reason, you can defend neither of the propositions.
Do not, then, reprove for error those who have made a choice; for you know nothing about it. "No, but I blame them for having made, not this choice, but a choice; for again both he who chooses heads and he who chooses tails are equally at fault, they are both in the wrong. The true course is not to wager at all."
Yes; but you must wager. It is not optional. You are embarked. Which will you choose then? Let us see. Since you must choose, let us see which interests you least. You have two things to lose, the true and the good; and two things to stake, your reason and your will, your knowledge and your happiness; and your nature has two things to shun, error and misery. Your reason is no more shocked in choosing one rather than the other, since you must of necessity choose. This is one point settled. But your happiness? Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager, then, without hesitation that He is.
"That is very fine. Yes, I must wager; but I may perhaps wager too much." Let us see. Since there is an equal risk of gain and of loss, if you had only to gain two lives, instead of one, you might still wager. But if there were three lives to gain, you would have to play (since you are under the necessity of playing), and you would be imprudent, when you are forced to play, not to chance your life to gain three at a game where there is an equal risk of loss and gain. But there is an eternity of life and happiness. And this being so, if there were an infinity of chances, of which one only would be for you, you would still be right in wagering one to win two, and you would act stupidly, being obliged to play, by refusing to stake one life against three at a game in which out of an infinity of chances there is one for you, if there were an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain. But there is here an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain, a chance of gain against a finite number of chances of loss, and what you stake is finite."

Well played my friend... Very well played. Can you see what I am getting at though? There are those with beliefs and those with questions. No one knows the right questions or the right "beliefs" to follow. This means that pushing on and/or labeling someone is absolutely absurd. I don't label myself an atheist. I don't label myself anything other than human. These types of posts are redundant. Although I do find myself health
 

MidWestAlki

Member
Haha hit post by accident. Anywho, I do find a healthy debate a good time. Problem here is that not many on here want to leave them as a debate and make them more of an argument. I will omit any more comments I have on this subject at least for this thread...
 

eye exaggerate

Well-Known Member
Haha hit post by accident. Anywho, I do find a healthy debate a good time. Problem here is that not many on here want to leave them as a debate and make them more of an argument. I will omit any more comments I have on this subject at least for this thread...
...I left this in an attempt to not beat a dead horse. There are no scientific wagers, I'd say. The point "for better or for worse" is in the first sentence. "We are then incapable of knowing either what He is or if He is...."

...I know that i exist. In the I and as the i... It's a choice i make. Call it a wager, or whatever you deem appropriate.
 

Pat the stoner

New Member
To believe in what we wish is our right by existing , by being alive . It is also our right according to the U.S.Constitution . To impose upon others beliefs is oppression , walk like me talk like me be like believe like me or your going to hell , Just sounds like christian fascist oppression to me . I do feel that some people have the need to impose upon others something like that in the name of christianity , however I think christianity is really not about oppression at all . Supposed to be about love , forgiveness , and truth - wonderful ideals. Unfortunately I don't see it arriving at that too often . As mature adults we should already know whats right or wrong most of the time . If someone needs a book to tell them not to try and have sex behind their partners back or with their friends wife , or to not kill the guy next door then I would say they are really lost and empty anyway. These are things we all should know we should not need a book to tell us . It is our right to believe in what we wish as long as it isn't harming others . Just like smoking weed , you wouldn't blow smoke in someones face who doesn't smoke weed and say it's good see , would you ? Or hold them down and force them to smoke pot . Then why try to do it intellectually then . It just turns people off and upsets them . Just like I dont need apiece of paper or a book to tell me I have a right to protect myself if my life is threatened . My thoughts and beliefs should be like that , not imposed upon as long as I'm not harming anyone. Likewise so should those of others as well . Christians call it the golden rule but I have rarely seen it applied by them . If you have a faith like that full of wonderfull beliefs then maybe apply them in a kind way . Just be cool about it . Not like Hitler in a fascist authoritarian way . Me I don't really have an answer either way , I just know what I believe in , it doesn't mean I'm right or wrong or that anyone else is either . Just that I should respect the rights of others as I wish they would mine.
 

BudDub

Active Member
I was waiting for someone to refer to that one. Think about it though. We would be doomed to Sheol, grave, or hell without jesus' sacrifice. And that's what that passage is saying. He was saying that if it wasn't for me you don't get to meet and live with god. It doesn't say if you don't believe in me you go to hell.
Revelation 20


12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


John 3
36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
 

eye exaggerate

Well-Known Member
Revelation 20


12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


John 3
36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


...look up 'second death' to try and understand the first one - and hell.
 
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