Did God Create Robots or Was Freewill International?

The Cryptkeeper

The Cryptkeeper

Well-Known Member
Hepheastus420 said:
Lol, sorry for pushing my beliefs on you.
What do you believe in crypt? I'm not looking to say you're crazy I'm just curious. Or are you an atheist (not that that's a problem)?

I'm not trying to piss you off, lol.
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LOL I already stated it enough for one thread thank you very much.

The Cryptkeeper said:
DAMN.... I'm a nihilist, so I have NO interest whatsoever in debating religion with believers, but this, this right here? This smashed any counter I would write to the free will bit. Perfectly lucid and would instantly revert the religious folk to their favorite incontrovertible rebuttal of "Well it's just what I believe.". :roll:

+rep Tyler. :)
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eye exaggerate

eye exaggerate

Well-Known Member
tyler.durden said:
I still don't get it: if god is omnipotent (can make us any way he chooses), and he knows exactly EVERYTHING we're going to do, how is there any free will? If I knew everything you, and everyone, was going to do, how would you have free will? You may have the illusion that you have choice, but if I knew everything you're going to do you wouldn't have free will any more than the characters in a book have free will (the book is already written and finished before we start reading it). He knows UPON MAKING EACH ONE OF US who is going to believe and who is not. I've heard it said god created us for his own glory, wouldn't it be much more efficient to create all of us to worship him? If this is our purpose, why give us a choice? And if he gives us a choice, why does he get so upset when we make one he doesn't prefer?
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I can be stubborn and walk against the rushing river, or I can walk with it and endure a little less erosion. When I look around I see a lot of people (me too) that choose to walk against the flow (either all the time or some of the time). If the flow were, say, energetic...how long would it take until something burned out? I feel it's mostly metaphor for being the 'middle'. That's the cross too actually. Vertical and Horizontal 'join' when free will used in a way that helps everyone in a given situation. Take the religious tone out of that and it still works. If a person operates from the ego sht usually goes bad. When they operate from 'self' sht usually starts to go better.

...just my 2
 
The Cryptkeeper

The Cryptkeeper

Well-Known Member
eye exaggerate said:
Take the religious tone out of that and it still works. If a person operates from the ego sht usually goes bad. When they operate from 'self' sht usually starts to go better.

...just my 2
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Please don't use psychological terms when you obviously don't truly understand what they are. :(
 
Beefbisquit

Beefbisquit

Well-Known Member
Hepheastus420 said:
Lol that's not simple, :).

But I'll take a stab at it.
I believe god let's us choose between heaven or not. If not heaven I have no idea where we go. Like why wouldn't he let us choose? Maybe he knows what will happen to us, but that doesn't mean he made us do that.
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This is correct, he may not MAKE us do something; but he knows we will do it (or he's not omnipotent). So, let's assume god exists, (we have to for the question to make sense, which is begging the question; maybe I'll tackle that later) and that he's omnipotent. He would be required by definition, to know literally everything about us before we, or the universe for that matter, would even exist.

He would know exactly which decisions we would make, and whether or not those decisions would lead us to heaven or hell. He would HAVE TO know these facts in order to be "god". So, if god does exist - he created us knowing exactly what each and everyone of us would do before we even existed.


Let's say you can tell the future. You know you're gone have five kids. 3 will love you and 2 will hate you. Remember, you know this. Now would you still have those kids even though you know what would happen? I think god chose to have us. Some followed him and some didn't, he knew the whole time who and who wouldn't follow him, but it still doesn't mean he programmed us that way.
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This analogy isn't accurate. We may give birth to children, but we do not "create" their matter. Parents don't claim to have designed everything to do with a child, from the feet to the head and everything in between. If kids don't love their parents, it could be the parents being shitty (not possible for god), it could be a genetic msitake (not possible with god, he doesn't make mistakes)... see where I'm going with this? In your scenario, it's just about whether they will love you or not - but if you actually created them, wouldn't you make sure they all loved you? Here's a thought experiment for you;

You're the best watch maker that has ever lived, no one even comes close to how awesome and perfect you are at making any timepiece. In fact, no one even knows how you make them. Watch-making to everyone else is a complete mystery. You decide you want to make 5 watches.

Being the best watchmaker ever, you know that based upon your current watch design that about 33% of the watches will, at some point, become defective. Do you continue making the watches that are defective, or do you make a new design? If you clearly have the power to fix the watches, and you clearly have knowledge they will break before you even make them, why would you make faulty products to begin with?

I wouldn't create anything with feelings, and emotions knowing full well that I was creating something faulty. And then blame them for my own faulty design, and torture them for eternity. That's straight up being an asshole.
 
Hepheastus420

Hepheastus420

Well-Known Member
Beefbisquit said:
This is correct, he may not MAKE us do something; but he knows we will do it (or he's not omnipotent). So, let's assume god exists, (we have to for the question to make sense, which is begging the question; maybe I'll tackle that later) and that he's omnipotent. He would be required by definition, to know literally everything about us before we, or the universe for that matter, would even exist.

He would know exactly which decisions we would make, and whether or not those decisions would lead us to heaven or hell. He would HAVE TO know these facts in order to be "god". So, if god does exist - he created us knowing exactly what each and everyone of us would do before we even existed.




This analogy isn't accurate. We may give birth to children, but we do not "create" their matter. In your scenario, it's just about whether they will love you or not - but if you actually created them, wouldn't you make sure they all loved you? Here's a thought experiment for you;

You're the best watch maker that has ever lived, no one even comes close to how awesome and perfect you are at making any timepiece. In fact, no one even knows how you make them. Watch making to everyone else is a complete mystery. You decide you want to make 5 watches.

Being the best watchmaker ever, you know that based upon your current watch design that about 33% of the watches will, at some point, become defective. Do you continue making the watches that are defective, or do you make a new design? If you clearly have the power to fix the watches, and you clearly have knowledge they will break before you even make them, why would you make faulty products to begin with?
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If the watches had emotions I would let them choose if they wanted to become defective, :).
But yes I would come up with a better design. But your scenario just turned me back to the belief of free will. If we can choose to love or hate god, then he didn't force us or "make a new design" of us, he didn't program us to love him. If we have the choice to hate him we obviously have free will (if you believe in god).
 
Beefbisquit

Beefbisquit

Well-Known Member
We may regard the present state of the universe as the effect of its past and the cause of its future. An intellect which at a certain moment would know all forces that set nature in motion, and all positions of all items of which nature is composed, if this intellect were also vast enough to submit these data to analysis, it would embrace in a single formula the movements of the greatest bodies of the universe and those of the tiniest atom; for such an intellect nothing would be uncertain and the future just like the past would be present before its eyes.
—Pierre Simon Laplace, A Philosophical Essay on Probabilities
 
The Cryptkeeper

The Cryptkeeper

Well-Known Member
Hepheastus420 said:
If the watches had emotions I would let them choose if they wanted to become defective, :).
But yes I would come up with a better design. But your scenario just turned me back to the belief of free will. If we can choose to love or hate god, then he didn't force us or "make a new design" of us, he didn't program us to love him. If we have the choice to hate him we obviously have free will (if you believe in god).
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Not if he knew we'd choose to love/hate him and then create us anyways. He just created something with the full intent of having it love/hate him. :)
 
Beefbisquit

Beefbisquit

Well-Known Member
Hepheastus420 said:
If the watches had emotions I would let them choose if they wanted to become defective, :).
But yes I would come up with a better design. But your scenario just turned me back to the belief of free will. If we can choose to love or hate god, then he didn't force us or "make a new design" of us, he didn't program us to love him. If we have the choice to hate him we obviously have free will (if you believe in god).
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How can something "choose" to be defective before it exists? Pop it into existence, ask it a question, pop it out of existence and then create it? Seems a bit unlikely.

How is it a choice for us, if god already knows what we're going to do? For god to know what we're going to do, it has to already be predetermined. If our choices are predetermined, they're not choices!
 
Hepheastus420

Hepheastus420

Well-Known Member
Beefbisquit said:
How can something "choose" to be defective before it exists? Pop it into existence, ask it a question, pop it out of existence and then create it? Seems a bit unlikely.

How is it a choice for us, if god already knows what we're going to do? For god to know what we're going to do, it has to already be predetermined. If our choices are predetermined, they're not choices!
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How are they not choices if they are predetermined? If god knew I would watch tv, does that mean I didn't choose to watch tv?
 
Hepheastus420

Hepheastus420

Well-Known Member
The Cryptkeeper said:
You don't, god made the child. :rolleyes: And yes, he did kill us all. Right? :lol:
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No he didn't, he gave us the option to have kids.
So I had my own kid. It was my choice to have a kid that will someday die, I killed him/her.
I guess your interpretation of that will change with your view of free will or no free will.
 
The Cryptkeeper

The Cryptkeeper

Well-Known Member
Hepheastus420 said:
No he didn't, he gave us the option to have kids.
So I had my own kid. It was my choice to have a kid that will someday die, I killed him/her.
I guess your interpretation of that will change with your view of free will or no free will.
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No. :fire: You can't dismiss the very basic tenants of Christianity and call yourself a Christian
 
Beefbisquit

Beefbisquit

Well-Known Member
Hepheastus420 said:
How are they not choices if they are predetermined? If god knew I would watch tv, does that mean I didn't choose to watch tv?
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Exactly. You have the illusion of having the choice of watching TV but if it's predetermined, you can't choose the other option. To you, it just seems like you're making a choice, but in reality it was the only thing you COULD have chose.
 
Beefbisquit

Beefbisquit

Well-Known Member
Actually, I've been using the wrong terminology. I mean predestined when it comes to god. Determinism has no need for a god.

I am, myself a determinist fyi...
 
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