The seven biggest economic lies

Canna Sylvan

Well-Known Member
Seriously, everyone replying to this nonsense needs to drop the bong and get into reality. This is by Christian Scientists. The same group who thinks medicine learned from even the civil war was a scam against god. Let alone current advances we currently have. Anyone group who advocates letting a poor child die because god will save them if the child was meant to live, need to die instead. I was laughing at each of the bullet points and found out why after realizing the source.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
The laffer curve is just that - a curve - a function of taxation over revenue. It is NOT a slope.



Government revenue is identical on two different points of taxation on this curve - except at the apex. The apex is the ideal tax rate. Beyond that rate revenues go down, before that rate, revenues are not optimum. Laffer does not claim that when ever tax rates are reduced revenue goes up.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
Who says Laffer was right?

The right claims laffer is right - until you point out what he REALLY says, and what he REALLY says makes perfect sense anyway. You can't simply continue to drop tax rates expecting that revenue will perpetually rise - it won't. Republicans always believe the sweet spot is lower, Dems always think it is higher.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
The right claims laffer is right - until you point out what he REALLY says, and what he REALLY says makes perfect sense anyway. You can't simply continue to drop tax rates expecting that revenue will perpetually rise - it won't. Republicans always believe the sweet spot is lower, Dems always think it is higher.
I say screw LAFFER! I say we do away with income taxes on individuals all together. The government will just have to deal with a smaller budget.
 

Dan Kone

Well-Known Member
Who says Laffer was right?
A good point. Everyone sort of accepts that as fact with really no factual evidence what so ever to back it up. In reality, the Laffer curve is an educated guess, not a proven fact. There is probably some truth to the concept, but we have no way of knowing how accurate it is.
 

Brick Top

New Member
Seriously, everyone replying to this nonsense needs to drop the bong and get into reality. This is by Christian Scientists.
Not exactly. It was published in the CS Monitor, but it was written by Robert Reich, a man that is well known to be an uber-liberal, a rabid Democrat and a hardcore lunatic Keynesian.
 

Brick Top

New Member
Slap tariffs on them for doing so then.
A tariff is put on imported goods. What if a business that relocates outside of the U.S. feels that they can do just as good, or maybe better, if they do not import their goods to the U.S. and instead only sell elsewhere in the world where tariffs would be lower or nonexistent? Then how does the government collect a single red cent from the business that it's unfairly high taxation rates and insane regulations drove out of the country?

Also, when the government puts a tariff on imported goods it is not an uncommon reaction for the nation where those goods are imported from to match, or top, that tariff by putting tariffs on goods imported from the other country. So, say you put a tariff on goods that used to be made in the U.S. that are now made in Costa Rica and then Costa Rica matches, or tops, that tariff by putting tariffs on good imported from the U.S. How did you come out on top? How did you win? What did you gain other than raising the price of goods to consumers in two nations?

It's not as simple as you seem to believe it to be.
 

Brick Top

New Member
Brick, then I should change it to Christian Scientist sympathizer? In any case that article is drivel.
No. But you seem to have missed the point. The article was not a CS Monitor article, as in a CS Monitor writer or employee expressing the beliefs of the CS Monitor. It was Robert Reich expressing his insane beliefs in an article that was merely published in the CS Monitor, or maybe only posted on it's site. You need to get past where the article was found and instead focus on the author of the article and realize that it's singular purpose was to further the agenda of the economic philosophy that he staunchly believes in. An economic policy belief that sadly we have seen in action for roughly the last three and three quarters years and are suffering the results of.

The only good that could possibly come from Obama is the death of the insane belief in Keynesian economics.


Keynesian Economics Is A Failure



Keynesian exuberance for the powers of stimulating demand or the 'consumer' has been in vogue since the 1930s. It is sheer nonsense which is taught in every school across the globe. Keynesian economics is little more than intellectual pablum used by those in power or by a technocratic and largely illiterate elite to increase their power; enhance government; print money and otherwise destroy normal economic relationships. Keynes' theory, so believed by professors is in practice a disaster.

Keynes was a left wing wall flower and a member of the deranged Bloomsbury group of inter-World War British pacifists. He was an arrogant theorist who truly believed in the magical elixir of large government and in the technocratic dream of controlling billions of personal, business and economic decisions, to programmatically construct a perfect world order. Keynes gave intellect and jargon filled cover and rationale to politicians and demagogues who would cite his book, 'The General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money', to justify state interventionism.

According to this theory which has failed in practice every time it has been tried, governments can stimulate an economy through granting consumers, workers and businesses sums of borrowed money. This is termed a 'stimulus'. This debt or current deficit financing stimulus, is then paid back or retired, when the economy strengthened by consumer spending and business investment, produces a surplus of tax revenues. The stimulus is needed, so argued Keynes, to overcome business cycles, downturns and unexpected events which would decrease jobs, increase unemployment and impact state revenues. By macro and micro-managing economic and production processes, the state, so thought Keynes, would avoid cyclical variations and ensure that the lowest level of unemployment could be maintained. Government power was thus indispensable to full employment and income equality.

There are many problems with such a counter-rational plan to economic management. None of Keynes' core assumptions make sense when they are analyzed either separately or together. Business cycles have historically been caused by governments, and they are usually a response to government policies to increase the size of the state through trade barriers, higher taxation, more spending, more regulation and programs of fear and compliance. The Great Depression, the 70s Stagflation and the current financial crisis are all obvious examples of this fact. Government causing economic malaise would appear to mean that government programs are not the solutions required to either get out of an economic downturn, nor to prevent future derailments from taking place.

The main impact of Keynesian economic stimuli is to increase debt; raise future tax rates and distort the normal functionings of economic markets and personal and corporate decision making. Governments choose winners and confirm losers. The winners will include companies which get bailed out, those receiving welfare, unions and others having their jobs protected, those receiving redistributed incomes and those paid off for political support. The losers invariably include firms both domestic and international who want fair and free trade; higher income families; small businesses who are classified under high income categories; future generations who must pay off the debt; and consumers who pay a higher costs for all products and services.

Under Keynesian philosophy, government and technocrats assume the role of God. Given the poverty of God heads throughout history, this is probably not a noble supposition to support.

Brian Reidl from Heritage Institute wrong an excellent article recently on the fallacy that government spending, or what is termed Keynesian deficit spending, run by God-heads, is beneficial (see Reidl
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/authors.aspx?GUID=220a4261-b3c8-4338-a5be-62bcc3f3b8d3). In this article he makes the following important points about demand-side management and the Keynesian fetish for economic control.

“Government cannot create new purchasing power out of thin air. If Congress funds new spending with taxes, it is simply redistributing existing income. If Congress instead borrows the money from domestic investors, those investors will have that much less to invest or to spend in the private economy. If Congress borrows the money from foreigners, the balance of payments will adjust by equally reducing net exports, leaving GDP unchanged. Every dollar Congress spends must first come from somewhere else.

This does not mean that government spending has no economic impact at all. Government spending often alters the consumption of total demand, such as increasing consumption at the expense of investment.”

When stimulus packages are created the money has to come from someone via taxes, or be printed. Both are net negatives to the economy. Economic growth only results from producing more goods and services (not from redistributing existing income), and that requires productivity growth and growth in the labor supply as productivity not only increases wealth but also wages and wage opportunities.

Historically of course government spending has reduced productivity and long-term economic growth due to some obvious reasons. As government spends more it raises taxes which reduces profits, productivity and wage and job creation. As government incurs more debt through stimulus and demand side packages it reduces the incentive to produce and displaces money by removing the more productive private sector from the economic equation and replacing it with a far less effective state dollar, taxed or printed on government printing press. The inefficiency of government policy in health, housing, education, and general industry are obvious creating huge costs which must be borne by ordinary taxpayers – ineffective solutions at a higher price one can say.

And as Reidl sources and proves:
“Mountains of academic studies show how government expansions reduce economic growth:
1.Public Finance Review reported that "higher total government expenditure, no matter how financed, is associated with a lower growth rate of real per capita gross state product."
2.The Quarterly Journal of Economics reported that "the ratio of real government consumption expenditure to real GDP had a negative association with growth and investment," and "growth is inversely related to the share of government consumption in GDP, but insignificantly related to the share of public investment."
3.A Journal of Macroeconomics study discovered that "the coefficient of the additive terms of the government-size variable indicates that a 1% increase in government size decreases the rate of economic growth by 0.143%."
4.Public Choice reported that "a one percent increase in government spending as a percent of GDP (from, say, 30 to 31%) would raise the unemployment rate by approximately .36 of one percent (from, say, 8 to 8.36 percent)."


It is obvious that Keynesian economics and demand management are tools for fools. Wealth, a better society, a cleaner world, a higher level of development is not coerced by government. It only occurs when free people operating in free markets are allowed to interact and determine the price and supply of various goods and services. Government involvement ensures the opposite and is a theory mired in cultish theological absurdity.

But Robert Reich and his ilk, like Obama, refuse to accept those facts.
 

Dan Kone

Well-Known Member
A tariff is put on imported goods. What if a business that relocates outside of the U.S. feels that they can do just as good, or maybe better, if they do not import their goods to the U.S. and instead only sell elsewhere in the world where tariffs would be lower or nonexistent?
Then best of luck to them.

Then how does the government collect a single red cent from the business that it's unfairly high taxation rates and insane regulations drove out of the country?
Who's talking about unfairly high taxations and regulations? Taxes and regulations are at an all time low. We are just talking about returning them to historically normal levels. The country and the businesses in the country did just fine under higher levels.

Also, when the government puts a tariff on imported goods it is not an uncommon reaction for the nation where those goods are imported from to match, or top, that tariff by putting tariffs on goods imported from the other country. So, say you put a tariff on goods that used to be made in the U.S. that are now made in Costa Rica and then Costa Rica matches, or tops, that tariff by putting tariffs on good imported from the U.S. How did you come out on top? How did you win? What did you gain other than raising the price of goods to consumers in two nations?
The problem with that logic is, that other countries already do put tariffs on US goods now. If what you're saying is true, how come we don't respond to them doing it to us?
 

Dan Kone

Well-Known Member
Since we are on the topic of economic lies, how about we dispense with the biggest economic lie of all. That would be that the 1% are all earning their billions of dollars.

Almost no one EARNS a billion dollars. They EXTRACT a billion dollars out of companies. When a financial services company buys up an existing company, lays off the employees and then sells off the assets, they aren't earning billions of dollars. They are just harvesting billions of dollars at the expense of the workers.

Let's look at what a billion dollars really is. It's the life time earnings of ~1000 Americans. Is a guy who's made a billion dollars by buying and selling oil futures really working as hard a the lifetime labor of 750 people? I don't think so.

A billionaire can spend a $1m per week for the rest of his life and NEVER TOUCH HIS CAPITAL. He can make that much on investment and interest alone. Basically, he can spend an average high school graduates lifetime income in a week, every week for the rest of his life, and never see it affect his personal savings.

Does he do the equivalent of a working man's lifetime workload every week? Of course not. He got what he could market-wise. That's why the government used to prevent such gross windfall and profiteering by overseeing and regulating the market (and, importantly, protecting workers' rights, jobs and benefits at the same time), and that's exactly what has been stripped away the past 30 years.

Making a living on Wall St by sticking your hand in someone else's pocket isn't the same as earning money. Buying up a company, firing everyone, and selling off corporate assets doesn't make someone a "job creator". Lowering taxes on the people who engage in this type of behavior is NOT creating jobs. Not here at least. Trading freely with countries that have substandard labor rights laws does NOT benefit the people of this country, it benefits the profits of the 1%.

Those are the real economic lies.
 

Brick Top

New Member
Then how does the government collect a single red cent from the business that it's unfairly high taxation rates and insane regulations drove out of the country?
Who's talking about unfairly high taxations and regulations? Taxes and regulations are at an all time low. We are just talking about returning them to historically normal levels.
What era or years do you pick as being "historically normal levels?" Previous to 1812 there were no income taxes in the U.S., and those were to pay for the war of 1812 and they were later repealed in 1816 when the war ended and there were no federal income taxes again until money was needed for the Yankees to fight the War of Northern Aggression (or as the revisionist historians call it, The Civil War). In July 1861, the Congress passed a 3% tax on all net income above $600 a year (about $10,000 today). However, no revenue was ever raised because a second tax passed before the first was due (on June 30, 1862). The war's demand on resources made the earlier tax ineffective, and the sale of bonds could not keep up with the expenditures of the administration and the armies. In March, the Congress passed an income tax of 3% on annual incomes of $600 to $10,000 and 5% on incomes from $10,000 to $50,000 and threw in a small inheritance tax too. Lincoln signed the bill on July 1, 1862 to take effect a month later.

If you want "historically normal levels" of taxation, crank the rate of taxation back to those historically normal levels.

The thing about the tax and spenders is they picked an era with the highest level ever of taxation to use to define what "historically normal levels" of taxation are.

Why should the period in the nations history that had the highest taxation rates ever be considered to be the normal baseline, or "historically normal levels?"


The country and the businesses in the country did just fine under higher levels.
Your position is like saying that you can sleep outside at night in the summer in the southern U.S. using only a thin sleeping bag and be totally fine, so you could also do it in the middle of an arctic winter.

When the rate of taxation was higher the entire economic climate was different, various laws were different, there was no cause to relocate a business to other nations with cheaper labor because all the cheap labor that was needed could be found in the U.S. Almost every single thing about back then is now different so to expect that the nation would survive just fine if outlandishly high taxation rates were imposed is beyond ridiculous and would only be said by someone who is totally clueless about the economic devastation such insane tax rates would cause.



The problem with that logic is, that other countries already do put tariffs on US goods now. If what you're saying is true, how come we don't respond to them doing it to us?
My example was only one in general, a broad way of explaining why tariffs can be very counterproductive.

But the question you should be asking is why rather than soak the wealthy for far more than they should be paying in taxes doesn't the U.S. government play hardball with the many nations that put higher tariffs on U.S. produced goods making them much more expensive in those nations resulting in lower sales than would otherwise be the case? When that happens that keeps businesses from being able to expand, so that means no, or fewer, new hirings, and that means fewer paychecks and no increase in profits, all of which means no increase in tax revenues, plus it isn't even in part being made up with higher tariffs.

Maybe it is because while the U.S. cannot totally do away with tariffs it has long known that tariffs are immoral and destructive of economic well-being.

The root issue of tariffs and other trade barriers is a moral concern. To place such restrictions on the exchange of property is an infringement on the natural right to own and exchange property. Protectionism threatens the consumers’ rights to choose from among goods and services. Protectionism is the policy of using coercion to restrict imports of foreign goods. To argue for tariffs and other trade restrictions is the same as arguing against technological change and human progress. Trade barriers decrease the advantages gained through the international division of labor. The argument for protectionism is the argument for higher prices, lower quality goods, economic stagnation, and coercive monopoly.

But you just say:

Originally Posted by Dan Kone
Slap tariffs on them for doing so then.
 

WillyBagseed

Active Member
Just to shut up any Christians who argue against taxes and the government... :peace:

Romans 13
1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.
6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

Love Fulfills the Law

8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,”[a] and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
The Day Is Near

11 And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12 The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13 Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. 14 Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh.

Now that any Christians are out of the way about anti taxes and disliking the government, time to turn my attention to you non superstitious people. :mrgreen:


BTW, Brick top got whacked by a traveler.. lol
 

WillyBagseed

Active Member
A tariff is put on imported goods. What if a business that relocates outside of the U.S. feels that they can do just as good, or maybe better, if they do not import their goods to the U.S. and instead only sell elsewhere in the world where tariffs would be lower or nonexistent? Then how does the government collect a single red cent from the business that it's unfairly high taxation rates and insane regulations drove out of the country?

Also, when the government puts a tariff on imported goods it is not an uncommon reaction for the nation where those goods are imported from to match, or top, that tariff by putting tariffs on goods imported from the other country. So, say you put a tariff on goods that used to be made in the U.S. that are now made in Costa Rica and then Costa Rica matches, or tops, that tariff by putting tariffs on good imported from the U.S. How did you come out on top? How did you win? What did you gain other than raising the price of goods to consumers in two nations?

It's not as simple as you seem to believe it to be.
If we still had a manufacturing base in the USA we wouldn't worry about Costa Rica or anybody else

You do know the vast majority of the world has tariffs and we still import the items they sell, they just call them value added taxes and other fancy names to try and get around so call "free trade"agreements. We do not need this free trade we need fair trade.

When people don't have enough money to buy items then that hurts the economy, you can make as much shit as you want in supply side but you won't sell any of it if nobody can buy it. The problem is so simple it is infuriating. Since the demise of unions and their bump on pay rates in the non union sector pay has stagnated and even gone down for the average worker. Work more hours and be more productive for less pay whilst we in upper management rape you and take huge bonuses, stock options and more.

Pay a fair wage and the majority of this shit goes away. And yes it can be done without needing to charge more for a product, some upper management just won't be able to take 10 million $$ to get fired for doing a shitty job etc.... or 100 million $$ and 1.7 BILLION in stock options for 5 years of so called work.(check out the healthcare industry) And people wonder why health insurance costs so much.
 

Dan Kone

Well-Known Member
What era or years do you pick as being "historically normal levels?"
Post WW2 until present. Add up the tax rates of the last 65 years and then divide by 65. That will give you the modern era historically normal tax rate.

I'll skip all the nonsense you posted about comparing our current global economy with agrarian times when mail was delivered by horseback. In those times btw, it was historically normal for the wealthy to pay nearly all the taxes that funded the federal government. It is a completely incomparable time.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Post WW2 until present. Add up the tax rates of the last 65 years and then divide by 65. That will give you the modern era historically normal tax rate.

I'll skip all the nonsense you posted about comparing our current global economy with agrarian times when mail was delivered by horseback. In those times btw, it was historically normal for the wealthy to pay nearly all the taxes that funded the federal government. It is a completely incomparable time.
Shouldn't we go all the way back to 1776 if we really want to be honest with ourselves? I mean, after all, the greatest growth of America was during a time of zero income tax.
 

Brick Top

New Member
Willyßagseed;6484314 said:
If we still had a manufacturing base in the USA we wouldn't worry about Costa Rica or anybody else
If my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle.

Clearly what I said stopped you cold in your tracks since you could not reply to it and instead changed the topic of tariffs to that of a diminished manufacturing base.
 
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