If I had the chance to explain libertarians to John Stewart

deprave

New Member
Recently the Judge was interviewed on John Stewart.
[video]http://www.hulu.com/watch/294290/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-thu-oct-27-2011[/video]


I really don't feel that the judge did a good job explaining libertarians to John Stewart. I liked his answers but I am not sure he really had enough time or explained it well to the younger audience. I think my friend here explains it a bit better:

[video=youtube;s2lOJdfN2Bs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2lOJdfN2Bs&list=FLb_1e_s3iA7i83kV-3n95fA&feature=mh_lolz[/video]
 

tomahawk2406

Well-Known Member
"if we decrease the amount of people who needed help simply by not allowing an inefficient government to make the problem worse we would have more wealth among the 95% with which they could do more good for a much smaller group of people who are in need." tax dollars go further than disaster relief. free market makes 5% of the population losers??? wtf?????
 

Charlie Ventura

Active Member
the guy is saying ignore the weak so they die and go away than everything will be good.
Libertarians do not want to ignore the weak. Libertarians believe in personal responsibility, and that would include responsibility for the less fortunate. Here's what Libertarians believe: Individual responsibility first. Then, if charity is needed let it come first from the family, then friends, then the church, then private charity, then the city, then the county, then the state .... but never from a centralized, over-reaching, central government located in a ten-square-mile-enclave known as Washington D.C.

The more that government is involved, the more strings that are attached.

 

canndo

Well-Known Member
The speaker makes two comparisons that do not wash. First he claims that slavery is the theft of a person's labor and therefore slavery and taxation are equivelent. They are not. Slavery is the ownership of another, it is the mandate that one person isn't ACTUALLY a person at all but a thing that can be bought or sold as any other commondity or product. This is not theft nor can it be seen as such. I am not "stealing" the labor of the computer I am typing on - I own the device itself.

Secondly, he claims in a round about way that, in short, we should not have to pay a portion of our income on what our government produces - societal order. I liken this to a person who stays at a very posh hotel (America is a very nice place to live). He lives here, avails himself of all of the order, peace, predictability and opportunity afforded to him and then believes that these things should be free. Imagine staying at this hotel and when you get the bill, saying "you are holding a gun to my head, I am being extorted out of my money and labor".
 

RyanTheRhino

Well-Known Member
The speaker makes two comparisons that do not wash. First he claims that slavery is the theft of a person's labor and therefore slavery and taxation are equivelent. They are not. Slavery is the ownership of another, it is the mandate that one person isn't ACTUALLY a person at all but a thing that can be bought or sold as any other commondity or product. This is not theft nor can it be seen as such. I am not "stealing" the labor of the computer I am typing on - I own the device itself.
Remember the old mine companies that used to pay their workers with "scrips". They where often in very desolate areas so the company would build houses and general stores. Because the miners where only paid in company scrips they where forced to spend it on rent and food back to the company
I believe he is trying to say that America is one of these giant companies.

With that said whoever controls the company decides what will be stocked in the general store & how big the housing will be. The 51% he keeps referring to is the most wealthy people who higher lobbyist and donate money to politicians. They are the ones who actually have the control & they will only do what is better for them.

You don't see this as slavery but i do. It may not be exactly the African American struggle but it is definitively slavery. You work for this worthless currency that you can only spend at the company's store. You can only buy the houses that the company builds. The company decides everything for you. In exchange for you slave labor they provide you a shed to live in and give you minimal food so you don't starve.

In this case yes you are free to walk where you want and say what you want but in the end the company controls all of your vital needs. Therefore the company owns you & that is why it is still considered slavery.
 

dukeanthony

New Member
Remember the old mine companies that used to pay their workers with "scrips". They where often in very desolate areas so the company would build houses and general stores. Because the miners where only paid in company scrips they where forced to spend it on rent and food back to the company
I believe he is trying to say that America is one of these giant companies.

With that said whoever controls the company decides what will be stocked in the general store & how big the housing will be. The 51% he keeps referring to is the most wealthy people who higher lobbyist and donate money to politicians. They are the ones who actually have the control & they will only do what is better for them.

You don't see this as slavery but i do. It may not be exactly the African American struggle but it is definitively slavery. You work for this worthless currency that you can only spend at the company's store. You can only buy the houses that the company builds. The company decides everything for you. In exchange for you slave labor they provide you a shed to live in and give you minimal food so you don't starve.

In this case yes you are free to walk where you want and say what you want but in the end the company controls all of your vital needs. Therefore the company owns you & that is why it is still considered slavery.
No its not because you can take dollars anywhere and Spend them. The currency isnt worthless. If you can find a more suitable way to pay your Bills have at it.
 

Gastanker

Well-Known Member
"if we decrease the amount of people who needed help simply by not allowing an inefficient government to make the problem worse we would have more wealth among the 95% with which they could do more good for a much smaller group of people who are in need." tax dollars go further than disaster relief. free market makes 5% of the population losers??? wtf?????
Statistically speaking, even at the best of times, there will be a minimum of 5% turnover in the economy. The market wouldn't function without any turnover.
 

sync0s

Well-Known Member
Libertarians vary so much in political philosophy, probably even more than all other parties.
Some are for homosexuality, some are against;
Some are pro-choice, some are pro-life;
Some are for taxation, some are against;

There is only one thing someone needs to know about libertarians in order to understand the basis of it's philosophy: Philosophy of Libertarianism is founded on one persons own morals in respect to what it means to be human, and what it means to be free and equal.

Obviously there is always debate over the outcomes of these meanings because it is open to our own interpretation. However, that is the beauty of this political philosophy. It's based on morals and inevitably the question always occurs: Is it right, fair, or just?

Okay... I'm done. :)
 

deprave

New Member
The speaker makes two comparisons that do not wash. First he claims that slavery is the theft of a person's labor and therefore slavery and taxation are equivelent. They are not. Slavery is the ownership of another, it is the mandate that one person isn't ACTUALLY a person at all but a thing that can be bought or sold as any other commondity or product. This is not theft nor can it be seen as such. I am not "stealing" the labor of the computer I am typing on - I own the device itself.

Secondly, he claims in a round about way that, in short, we should not have to pay a portion of our income on what our government produces - societal order. I liken this to a person who stays at a very posh hotel (America is a very nice place to live). He lives here, avails himself of all of the order, peace, predictability and opportunity afforded to him and then believes that these things should be free. Imagine staying at this hotel and when you get the bill, saying "you are holding a gun to my head, I am being extorted out of my money and labor".
Fair enough, I am not trying to push my views but only to help people understand libertarians, many clearly don't, that is fine if you disagree but I just wish people would take the time to understand how the Libertarian philosophy is rooted. It seems to me as If you didn't really listen, People only hear what they want to hear and to be fair we are all guilty of this.

You bring up the slavery point like it was a simple point and that my friend said outright that taxes=slavery, in fact he separates the two later in the speech, and then you insinuate that this is the major framework of the entire argument when its really not not that important to draw this connection. If this was what he said then I would have to agree, this comparison wouldn't be fair as you said slavery implies ownership much like you said, the better word would of been thievery.

To put it very simply and not so long winded with philosophies and metaphors that everyone will interrupt differently as syncos is trying to get across above:

To be a libertarian or understand libertarians you only really have to understand one thing

1) You must believe in the individual over the collective.

In the second half of your post you clearly show that you believe in the collective. Ok thats all good...but this is where the misunderstanding comes in:

People who believe in the collective generally either actually believe or are trained to believe that Libertarians are selfish/greedy/ignorant/foolish/misguided/inpractical as you exemplified, its really not that simple and simply not true, in many ways it is misguided to have these thoughts, to not give the individualist its fair shot at philosophy, to dismiss it out of falseness.

A libertarian would say:
To believe in the individual is to believe in the collective as the individual is part of the collective.

So that's the argument, its not that, we don't need people to build roads or we are just arrogant pricks in our own little world. Quite the contrary, as syncos put above, to be a libertarian one must have faith in humanity, Although libertarians vary greatly from one individual to another this idea serves to guide us all and its guided by humanitarian causes, the rights of the individual. As a left leaning libertarian I believe in the people to do whats right over any corporation or government. I only hope you could at least come to understand it even if you disagree, at least to understand we are not some kind of selfish brutes.

Its an ancient argument:
Collectivism vs individualism
[video=youtube;30NL_iDna9E]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30NL_iDna9E[/video]
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
Remember the old mine companies that used to pay their workers with "scrips". They where often in very desolate areas so the company would build houses and general stores. Because the miners where only paid in company scrips they where forced to spend it on rent and food back to the company
I believe he is trying to say that America is one of these giant companies.

With that said whoever controls the company decides what will be stocked in the general store & how big the housing will be. The 51% he keeps referring to is the most wealthy people who higher lobbyist and donate money to politicians. They are the ones who actually have the control & they will only do what is better for them.

You don't see this as slavery but i do. It may not be exactly the African American struggle but it is definitively slavery. You work for this worthless currency that you can only spend at the company's store. You can only buy the houses that the company builds. The company decides everything for you. In exchange for you slave labor they provide you a shed to live in and give you minimal food so you don't starve.

In this case yes you are free to walk where you want and say what you want but in the end the company controls all of your vital needs. Therefore the company owns you & that is why it is still considered slavery.

I will repeat this - in effect we are spitting on the graves and causes of anti-slavery. Your children, wife or husband are not being placed on an auction block and sold away from you. You are not whipped, beaten, starved or shackled. Taxation is not slavery by any means, by any comparison. I am disgusted that people will attempt to alter the meaning of basic words to suit their ideological postulation just because those words are "hot" words that evoke an emotion. Again, someone taking our money in any way, no matter how repulsive is not slavery and to make that comparision is insulting.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
Fair enough, I am not trying to push my views but only to help people understand libertarians, many clearly don't, that is fine if you disagree but I just wish people would take the time to understand how the Libertarian philosophy is rooted. It seems to me as If you didn't really listen, People only hear what they want to hear and to be fair we are all guilty of this.

You bring up the slavery point like it was a simple point and that my friend said outright that taxes=slavery, in fact he separates the two later in the speech, and then you insinuate that this is the major framework of the entire argument when its really not not that important to draw this connection. If this was what he said then I would have to agree, this comparison wouldn't be fair as you said slavery implies ownership much like you said, the better word would of been thievery.

To put it very simply and not so long winded with philosophies and metaphors that everyone will interrupt differently as syncos is trying to get across above:

To be a libertarian or understand libertarians you only really have to understand one thing

1) You must believe in the individual over the collective.

In the second half of your post you clearly show that you believe in the collective. Ok thats all good...but this is where the misunderstanding comes in:

People who believe in the collective generally either actually believe or are trained to believe that Libertarians are selfish/greedy/ignorant/foolish/misguided/inpractical as you exemplified, its really not that simple and simply not true, in many ways it is misguided to have these thoughts, to not give the individualist its fair shot at philosophy, to dismiss it out of falseness.

A libertarian would say:
To believe in the individual is to believe in the collective as the individual is part of the collective.

So that's the argument, its not that, we don't need people to build roads or we are just arrogant pricks in our own little world. Quite the contrary, as syncos put above, to be a libertarian one must have faith in humanity, Although libertarians vary greatly from one individual to another this idea serves to guide us all and its guided by humanitarian causes, the rights of the individual. As a left leaning libertarian I believe in the people to do whats right over any corporation or government. I only hope you could at least come to understand it even if you disagree, at least to understand we are not some kind of selfish brutes.

Its an ancient argument:
Collectivism vs individualism
[video=youtube;30NL_iDna9E]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30NL_iDna9E[/video]
What I do is establish that government provides a service that no other organization can provide. It is a service that libertarians take for granted because they live in this society and cannot, as a fish cannot see water, see that the scafolding of their proposd system dissapears when their system is put into place - the service is order and predictability. Libertarianism works, but what it establishes is a brutish, darwininian society that is reactive and never proactive. Reactive societies result in large scale human death and suffering where only the strongest, the smartest and the luckiest fare well. This is not a society that one could easly call "civilized" I enjoy civilization and do not wish to see it dissapear.
 

tomahawk2406

Well-Known Member
Statistically speaking, even at the best of times, there will be a minimum of 5% turnover in the economy. The market wouldn't function without any turnover.
minimum was my point. 5%?? ....................**than your alarm clock goes off and you wake up**
 

RyanTheRhino

Well-Known Member
I will repeat this - in effect we are spitting on the graves and causes of anti-slavery. Your children, wife or husband are not being placed on an auction block and sold away from you. You are not whipped, beaten, starved or shackled. Taxation is not slavery by any means, by any comparison. I am disgusted that people will attempt to alter the meaning of basic words to suit their ideological postulation just because those words are "hot" words that evoke an emotion. Again, someone taking our money in any way, no matter how repulsive is not slavery and to make that comparision is insulting.
To own someone for labor is slavery. When I was born my parents had to pay a bill to the doctors. To own property I must pay a bill. When I want to eat I must pay a bill. You may say well you can grow your own food, but I must own property to grow food. I am a slave to the system just like everyone else. I must do labor for someone else to get food & shelter. I can not simply walk away from the system because I will die from starvation or get punished for not doing what they say. If I try to farm on land the government will come and arrested me for trespassing. If I try to fish for food I will get arrested because you need a fishing licensed. I am forced to work unwillingly for companies and organisations that allow me to feed myself ,even when left alone I could just gather my own food.

I'm sorry you are stuck on the African American view of slavery ignoring the 4000 years of slavery that came before it. The first written history of slaves came from ancient Sumeria in 2100 BCE and that is because they where first to create a written language. Imagine how far back it really went. Slavery has existed until 1865. My family has never owned a slave & most likely came form the old slaves of Greece & Persia. Yet my birth certificate says I am white/Caucasian so i am the bad guy.

Sorry if i used the word slave as it is defined ownership
 
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