Advantage V. disadvantage CFL's
- Thread starter lastfrontier
- Start date
SheepsBlood
Well-Known Member
So here is the state of one of my plants when it was in VEG. under 6500k cfl bulbs.
For a bigger glance
Vegging State
Here it is 3 weeks into flower
Bigger PIC
3 Weeks into Flower
Also here is a closer shot of one of the BUDS. You tell me if CFL's produce ~ Less Dense or lighter buds cause it sure feels dense if I squeeze one.
Bigger PIC
3 weeks into budding
For a bigger glance
Vegging State
Here it is 3 weeks into flower
Bigger PIC
3 Weeks into Flower
Also here is a closer shot of one of the BUDS. You tell me if CFL's produce ~ Less Dense or lighter buds cause it sure feels dense if I squeeze one.
Bigger PIC
3 weeks into budding
What I see here is a bit of a clash of egos. Sticky wants to call bullshit on everyone and everything he doesnt agree with and then wants to threaten his way to the top of an argument.
Frontier may have his math off but he may not. I dont know every detail of his setup nor does anyone else but him.
The funny thing is, I came here because I feel the best knowledge is represented here. It only took me about 2 weeks from knowing jack shit to understand what the average parameters should be and who is blowing smoke up peoples asses.
When you get to CFL it gets a bit hazy because so many people are NOT using it on a larger scale and its primarily used for those rubbermaid grows. Until we get a LOT more people at least experimenting with it, we are not going to have solid information. There is much to be learned still.
Remember kiddies.............non-existance of evidence does not equal evidence of non-existance.
Frontier may have his math off but he may not. I dont know every detail of his setup nor does anyone else but him.
The funny thing is, I came here because I feel the best knowledge is represented here. It only took me about 2 weeks from knowing jack shit to understand what the average parameters should be and who is blowing smoke up peoples asses.
When you get to CFL it gets a bit hazy because so many people are NOT using it on a larger scale and its primarily used for those rubbermaid grows. Until we get a LOT more people at least experimenting with it, we are not going to have solid information. There is much to be learned still.
Remember kiddies.............non-existance of evidence does not equal evidence of non-existance.
Dr G.Thumb
Well-Known Member
You sir are in idiot...
How do you figure you have 80,000 lumens when you dont have a bulb putting out 80,000. Simply adding 2 - 42 watt bulbs @ 2750 Lumens each DOES NOT NET 5500 lumens because you have not doubled the INTENSITY, just the wattage. All you've done is added more light per sq foot which has increased the coverage area meaning the plant receives more light per sq foot (not more lumens) just more light.
Amount of light and amount of intensity are totally different things.
Sullivado09
Active Member
this has been a very interesting thread. leave the guy along. hes posting wat he has to say and everyone has ragged on him a shit ton. 7 pages of it. lol
Dr G.Thumb
Well-Known Member
People rag on others simple to do "mis-information" leading people to think that 2 - 42 watt bulbs rated @ 2700 lumens each equals a total of 5400 lumens or that its possible to net 80,000 lumens with multi cfl bulbs is just crazy. And if others do not try to make people see reason or understand their mistake then sooner or later people start believing the BS because no one is willing to correct them.
Tell you what, why dont you go thru the trouble of setting up a cfl box and see what happens to the lumen output per every bulb lit.
Then instead of giving out standardized answers about how 2 2700 lumen bulbs arent equaling 5500 ..........why dont you show us what it does equal. Thats what this section needs........people with equipment that can show others what this equals or that equals.
Dr G.Thumb
Well-Known Member
Awh, I'm currently using CFL's and know all about their output/coverage area so would have no need to setup a "cfl box" and see what happens but here is another way I'll try to put it. The closer you are to the light bulb, the brighter that bulb is. Or think of it this way, you can't change how much light comes out of your light bulb. So, to make more light on an object, you have to either move the light closer, or add more lights.
Now I hope you can understand that "You cannot change how much light comes out of your light bulb" 2700 lumens is 2700 lumens no matter how many bulbs you use. All you have done is ADDED more light. You have not added or increased the lumens in any way.
One reason why MH/HPS users/growers will bash people using CFLs. The HID's put out a great intensity which is why you only need 1 bulb vs people with CFL's using 12+. They require the 12+ bulbs for "Coverage Area" not increased intensity. And since CFL's lack that intensity you require more of them to cover an area.
Garden Knowm
The Love Doctor
Garden Knowm
The Love Doctor
hey mr. knowalmostitall,
could you please write something up that is about 1 paragraph long.... and simply explain this principal and where people can find more info on the internet... something that defines lumen maybe?
and I will make it a sticky in the cfl forum...
Thanks for this important info
thanks
iloveyou
Tanuvan
Well-Known Member
Well for one, advertisers of Fluorescent lights do in fact quote lumens as additive. So you could start by perhaps educating the Fluorescent tube manufactures and Resellers.
If you look on ANY site that sells Fluorescent tubes CFL or otherwise, they quote the light as a total power of the individual lumens on the bulbs.
Here is an example...
Sunlight Supply's line of T5 fluorescent aquarium Tek Lights come in stylish black with a sleek profile at just 2½" This This 4ft 8 bulb - 432 Watts fluorescent aquarium light includes 95% German aluminum Tek Reflectors for superior reflectivity.
40,000 Lumen. 8 x 4' tube Fixture. 49"L/20"W/3"H.
Notice they do not say the light is a 5K lumen light.
Quit bashing people and educate them. Post formulas...post something constructive.
If you look on ANY site that sells Fluorescent tubes CFL or otherwise, they quote the light as a total power of the individual lumens on the bulbs.
Here is an example...
Sunlight Supply's line of T5 fluorescent aquarium Tek Lights come in stylish black with a sleek profile at just 2½" This This 4ft 8 bulb - 432 Watts fluorescent aquarium light includes 95% German aluminum Tek Reflectors for superior reflectivity.
40,000 Lumen. 8 x 4' tube Fixture. 49"L/20"W/3"H.
Notice they do not say the light is a 5K lumen light.
Quit bashing people and educate them. Post formulas...post something constructive.
Garden Knowm
The Love Doctor
Tanuvan
Well-Known Member
The Lumen is a subjective measure based on the perceived brightness of a light source to the HUMAN eye. (Not a particular bulb...but the entire source...1 to (n) number of bulbs)
What cannot be changed is the Light Intensity. Given by the lighting flux F which is emitted in a specified way by a unit of solid angle W, in other words, the lighting power of the source which is expressed in watts. I = F/W
The F or Flux is a function of Lumens ( can be used interchangeably) that comprise the calculation of light intensity, but is NOT light intensity itself.
The lighting flux (f) is the power (energy per one unit of time) of the lighting energy which is measured according to its visual effect (it is equivalent to one candle per each steradian). That is, it indicates the quantity of light which is emitted in a unit of time in an specific direction (spatial distribution of the light which is emitted by the source).
Its unit is the lumen (lm).
683 lumens are the equivalent of one watt, emitted to 555 nm wavelength, which is the equivalent of the highest sensitivity of the human eye.
The definition of lumen, the unit of a lighting flux, is:
"The lighting flux (dF) is a source of light Intensity I (cd) at an angle with a solid element given by dF=IdR"
This means that the flux of a light source equals its intensity in candle multiplied by the solid angle over which the light is emitted, taking into account the variation of intensity that it produces in different directions.
What does this mean in laymans terms? Well, that Lumens are not an exact scientific measure per se. It is a function of perceived brightness. If you add more light bulbs...the perceived brightness increases and thus the Lumens.
The luminosity function is based on a standardized model of human brightness perception.
That is what I have got...let the debate begin!!!
Dr G.Thumb
Well-Known Member
The "perceived" brightness is increased (or at least your eye thinks its getting brighter) but in reality, all you've done is added MORE light which gives the impression its got brighter. Obviously 3 bulbs vs 1 bulb will be perceived as brighter by the eye simply due to the fact that there is now more light in that one area. But the intensity still isn't any greater.
Smokeringz
Active Member
Am I correct to say that Intensity is proportional to how far a given bulb or bulb type will penetrate, relevant mostly during flowering? CFL will only penetrate the correct intensity approx 3 inches into foliage thus only giving the top 3 " of the plants the correct intensity needed for dense bud production. That is why it is suggested to either surround the plant with the CFL lights, all 3 inches or less away from bud sites, or make a SCROG design with the lights positioned directly above and over the plants 3" or less.
As for the topic of this thread Advantage V disadvantage I feel that the advantages are; you can experiment with growing with very cheap startup fees. If used properly with good grow techniques you will get buds as dank as anyone. I think CFLs lack the intensity to produce as dense of a bud as an HPS lamp, but the smoke is equally as tasty and potent if let mature to proper harvest time, and I have seen personaly a friend get about an ounce per SQ. foot in a 2x2x2 plywood box SCROG rigged with computer fans and (7) 42 watt CFL bulbs.By taking CFLs lack of intensity into account from day one you can tailor your grow to the type of light you are using, that is why some people are way more successful then others.
Disadvantages are low intensity for flowering buds, even with a ridiculous amount of bulbs.The ballast is attached so heat from each ballast must be cooled with each bulb unless reconstructed in some way and customized. The bulb doesn't get as hot as a HPS but if you stack up a ridiculous amount of CFLs like author of this thread you will definatly need a thermal solution like any HPS user, undermining one of the mane reasons people use CFL.
I think that being realistic about what you need is the best way to start any grow. To grow one or more pounds I would use a HPS and setup accordingly. If you just want to smoke good and keep your shit low key and for personal stash then CFL would be a good option, as you can produce a few personal ounces np. Yes I know you can put 50 CFLs in a big as donkey looking hood and grow some plants with it, but I just think its a big waste of watts, which is a measurement of heat and the penetration will be about the same anyway which is why it is better to spread the lights around like GK suggest so that light is penetrating 3 inches in other areas that the top bulbs can't get to and deliver the appropriate intensity.Not to say that a huge CFL hood is not good for veg, it just seems to me that a HPS setup would suit you better for flowering when trying to grow pounds. I also read something about (only pulling over 10 amps) thats a lot of fucking amps man. Most house circuits are only rated for 10 amps so not everyone is a journeyman electrician and can wire up a 15 or 20 amp circuit themselves, although I am confused as to how you say only 12 or 13 amps, don't want to go back to find the exact number. Not safe man to push your breakers to the max like that.
As for the topic of this thread Advantage V disadvantage I feel that the advantages are; you can experiment with growing with very cheap startup fees. If used properly with good grow techniques you will get buds as dank as anyone. I think CFLs lack the intensity to produce as dense of a bud as an HPS lamp, but the smoke is equally as tasty and potent if let mature to proper harvest time, and I have seen personaly a friend get about an ounce per SQ. foot in a 2x2x2 plywood box SCROG rigged with computer fans and (7) 42 watt CFL bulbs.By taking CFLs lack of intensity into account from day one you can tailor your grow to the type of light you are using, that is why some people are way more successful then others.
Disadvantages are low intensity for flowering buds, even with a ridiculous amount of bulbs.The ballast is attached so heat from each ballast must be cooled with each bulb unless reconstructed in some way and customized. The bulb doesn't get as hot as a HPS but if you stack up a ridiculous amount of CFLs like author of this thread you will definatly need a thermal solution like any HPS user, undermining one of the mane reasons people use CFL.
I think that being realistic about what you need is the best way to start any grow. To grow one or more pounds I would use a HPS and setup accordingly. If you just want to smoke good and keep your shit low key and for personal stash then CFL would be a good option, as you can produce a few personal ounces np. Yes I know you can put 50 CFLs in a big as donkey looking hood and grow some plants with it, but I just think its a big waste of watts, which is a measurement of heat and the penetration will be about the same anyway which is why it is better to spread the lights around like GK suggest so that light is penetrating 3 inches in other areas that the top bulbs can't get to and deliver the appropriate intensity.Not to say that a huge CFL hood is not good for veg, it just seems to me that a HPS setup would suit you better for flowering when trying to grow pounds. I also read something about (only pulling over 10 amps) thats a lot of fucking amps man. Most house circuits are only rated for 10 amps so not everyone is a journeyman electrician and can wire up a 15 or 20 amp circuit themselves, although I am confused as to how you say only 12 or 13 amps, don't want to go back to find the exact number. Not safe man to push your breakers to the max like that.
Id like to know how anyone measures intensity of light.
Color spectrum and lumen output is the key to percieved brightness, yes?
So wouldnt you say that intensity is based on electrical consumption/color/output?
We use wattage with electrical intensity all the time. A lightbulb that is 100 watts is more intense than a lightbulb of 50 watts given all things other than wattage are equal e.g. COLOR and TYPE
Is there a math formula like sound intensity? Do you need 10 times the pushed wattage to double your light intensity? For car stereos you must times your wattage by 10 to get a percieved double in loudness. Sound waves and light waves work similiarly I assume.
I mean when you buy a 26 watt CFL that claims to be as bright as a 100 watt incandescent. Are you only getting color and lumen but actually losing intensity due to the actual lower wattage consumed to transmitt this light?
Furthermore, if CFL are so inept at pushing light farther than 3 inches deep, why wouldnt we just build crazy boxes that had bulbs on every face but the floor and below bucket/pot level to bring the light within 3 inches of every exterior surface, trim the innards out of the plant and use the outermost areas as flower producers?
We do all agree that most people hack up a plant so that the light provided from MH or HPS will concentrate on a single flower or a few outer flowers dont we?
Its just food for thought and I cant stand seeing people lunging at the opportunity to attack anyone for lightly misguided information at best.
Ive not run into anyone trying to tell me that they got themselves a kilo off of 10 13watt cfl's and a computer fan in some miracle grow. Attack that stupid shit not someone claiming better than most. Most the CFL stuff I see here has jack shit for bulbs and hence why Im mostly not interested in this area, but occasionaly I see something and I read it and it usually turns into a flame fest.
Color spectrum and lumen output is the key to percieved brightness, yes?
So wouldnt you say that intensity is based on electrical consumption/color/output?
We use wattage with electrical intensity all the time. A lightbulb that is 100 watts is more intense than a lightbulb of 50 watts given all things other than wattage are equal e.g. COLOR and TYPE
Is there a math formula like sound intensity? Do you need 10 times the pushed wattage to double your light intensity? For car stereos you must times your wattage by 10 to get a percieved double in loudness. Sound waves and light waves work similiarly I assume.
I mean when you buy a 26 watt CFL that claims to be as bright as a 100 watt incandescent. Are you only getting color and lumen but actually losing intensity due to the actual lower wattage consumed to transmitt this light?
Furthermore, if CFL are so inept at pushing light farther than 3 inches deep, why wouldnt we just build crazy boxes that had bulbs on every face but the floor and below bucket/pot level to bring the light within 3 inches of every exterior surface, trim the innards out of the plant and use the outermost areas as flower producers?
We do all agree that most people hack up a plant so that the light provided from MH or HPS will concentrate on a single flower or a few outer flowers dont we?
Its just food for thought and I cant stand seeing people lunging at the opportunity to attack anyone for lightly misguided information at best.
Ive not run into anyone trying to tell me that they got themselves a kilo off of 10 13watt cfl's and a computer fan in some miracle grow. Attack that stupid shit not someone claiming better than most. Most the CFL stuff I see here has jack shit for bulbs and hence why Im mostly not interested in this area, but occasionaly I see something and I read it and it usually turns into a flame fest.
Tanuvan
Well-Known Member
Did you not read what I posted? I said Intensity is NOT increased but lumens are. Lumens are a measure of perceived brightness. I'm not debating light intensity.
I already stated that intensity does not increase. Your comment doesn't add anything at all.
Tanuvan
Well-Known Member
Intensity determines the effective light distance. So lower intensity means that the energy the photons are carrying is less. So no matter how many lumens you have...if the intensity is low, you will still need to place the light source close to the surface...or in this case...plant.
The energy carried by a packet of light is not increased by adding more packets. The only thing that can increase the actual intensity is to increase the driving energy of the light source.
So despite your lenghty tutorial Tanuvan, I am curious as to how you think the best possible way to set up cfl's with most intensity would be. I see most of the cfl questions on here are redundant, but I feel that is beacuse there is never a really lay answer that everyone can learn from.Now that this is a sticky, could you give us all some layoutsor ideas on how to set up cfl's properly?
And by the way, Great job to all those that contributed, i am sure this would of helped me a few months back.
And by the way, Great job to all those that contributed, i am sure this would of helped me a few months back.