LED Without LEDs -My First T5 Grow

[PetFlora]

RedOctober" I have one 8 bulb BB n my DIY 2 X 4 wood frame in a ~ 10 X 12 room. Windshield reflector loosely draped to reflect light back in. Not doing co2. The room is dark at night. Not worried about a little moon light leaking. I run a small circulating fan aimed just above the canopy. Any heat is blowing out into the rest of the room. If your tent doesn't breathe I cannot know how much heat it will hold, but I think 2 @ 8 bulb T 5s will compare production wise to your 2 @ 600.

 

[AssDan]

plants actually DO use green and in some circumstances use it MORE efficiently that red light... we have posted the effects of green light on plants here previously!

Sorry I spoke out of my depth/experience. I am reading the thread again. I didn't absorb all that I should have. Going through a second time, I understand better and I will take more away after the second read.

 

[UnderCurrentDWC]

WOW, What a thread!!!

It took me three days to read all 128 pages but I wanted to get through the entire thing before posting because I don't want to be that annoying asshole that asks some ignorant repetitious question that's been discussed a thousand times already. This thread is so packed with information that I will probably need to read it again just to digest it all! I should have taken notes and demarcated the pages with the bits that really caught my attention...but I didn't haha.

Thank you Pr0fesseur for all of your hard work and countless hours of research! And to all the participants in this experiment as well, thank you for helping to further our knowledge and improve upon our methods which are ever evolving!

I would like to try the T5 experiment as well. Unfortunately I live in a very 420 unfriendly place, so posting pics or dong a journal is probably not in the cards for me. I don't know if anyone would even want anecdotal accounts without pictures.

I had bought two GLH LED lights several months ago for the exact reason that you made this thread Pr0f. On their website, they discussed the limitations of HID lights and introduced me to the concept of PAR light for plant growth. I said to myself, huh, that sure makes a lot of sense...I wonder why more people aren't researching that. Low and behold, here you all are, doing it not with LED but T5. What a creative idea to use aquarium lights! T5's are wonderfully dynamic in so many ways. They come in an endless variety of spectra, and can be switched mid grow, something LED's can never do. I am fully on board here and can't wait to see how everyone's results turn out.

Here's my first question which has been touched on briefly and it's about heat. Never having owned a T5, I am completely unacquainted with how much heat they give off. It sounded like the 8 lamp units give off a fair bit, not from the lamps themselves but from the ballasts, which is why the pr0fessor was looking to keep the ballasts separate and outside the grow space. I don't really think this is feasible for me, so my options are to go with the Badboy and try to rig some kind of cool tube thing like...like...geez, I can't remember now if it was Altar, or DWC who did it (forgive me, it's been a long read). Or the other choice is to go with the air cooled Solar Wind which is significantly more expensive and can't be run without a cooling fan from what I understand. Both of these have drawbacks especially since I wanted to do a relatively equivalent watt run with the T5's to my two 600W HPS lamps. This would mean 3, 8 Lamp BadBoy's...24 bulbs total equaling 1296W. From what I understand about what you all have said, these would throw off a significant amount of heat. My grow room is roughly 10x10x9. I was hoping to use CO2 and thus keep my room sealed, but with that many lamps would that be feasible?

I guess I'm wondering what the best course of action would be to allow for the use of CO2 and a sealed room while mediating the heat from the T5 ballasts?

Nice having you aboard Redoctober!

I've ran 24 bulbs in a grow room! The heat output from the t5 in no way compares to the heat from a HID.
With passive air my room stayed at 75*F (that's with a water chiller running in the room blowing copious amounts of hot air) I would wager to say with Co2 @ 85*F you could gat away with a small airconditioner in the sealed room.

P.s. I bought a 16 bulb Bb for 350$ & an 8 bulb for 220$ I prefer the way the 16's bays light up, consecutive, the 8 fires the bulbs in the middle than the bulbs on the outside.

Happy growing
Uc~

 

[Redoctober]

]If your tent doesn't breathe I cannot know how much heat it will hold, but I think 2 @ 8 bulb T 5s will compare production wise to your 2 @ 600.

Actually I don't have a tent, it's just a 10x10 room. So you're saying that 2 Badboys with 8 bulbs a piece will produce as much heat in the room as 2 600W HPS lights? Just want to clarify. Wow that's quite a bit of heat.

Nice having you aboard Redoctober!

I've ran 24 bulbs in a grow room! The heat output from the t5 in no way compares to the heat from a HID. With passive air my room stayed at 75*F (that's with a water chiller running in the room blowing copious amounts of hot air) I would wager to say with Co2 @ 85*F you could gat away with a small airconditioner in the sealed room. P.s. I bought a 16 bulb Bb for 350$ & an 8 bulb for 220$ I prefer the way the 16's bays light up, consecutive, the 8 fires the bulbs in the middle than the bulbs on the outside. Happy growing Uc~

Thanks UnderCurrent, I love your grow! Those T5 are kicking serious ass! So you think that a small AC would keep a 10x10 room in the high 70's low 80's even with 24 bulbs? That would be pretty perfect. I was even thinking of possibly trying out the IceBox cooling system from Hydro Innovations. It looks way more efficient than an air conditioner. If you type icebox chiller into YouTube you'll see their channel...they've got some interesting videos.

Maybe I will go with the BadBoy after all then. It's much cheaper @ $190 with no bulbs than the Solar Wind which is like $340. Plus with the solar wind you always need to have a duct hooked up to it.

The reason I was thinking of 2x 8 bulb units instead of 1x 16 bulb unit is so that I could make a sort of a tent with the lights, angling each at about a 45 degree angle, then gradually flattening the angle out as things grow. Plus, my aero unit is only about 3.5 ft or so across, so a 16 bulb unit would extend way out over the sides and be wasting light. If I had 3x 8 bulb units, I could make almost a makeshift dome of light over my aero unit with one directly overhead and one on either side.

Now I do remember that the pr0fesseur said something along the lines that having the T5 tilted 90 degrees and placed on the side of the side of the plants is inefficient and wasting light, so if this configuration isn't going to work, someone should stop me right now lol!

 

[UnderCurrentDWC]

Actually I don't have a tent, it's just a 10x10 room. So you're saying that 2 Badboys with 8 bulbs a piece will produce as much heat in the room as 2 600W HPS lights? Just want to clarify. Wow that's quite a bit of heat.

Thanks UnderCurrent, I love your grow! Those T5 are kicking serious ass! So you think that a small AC would keep a 10x10 room in the high 70's low 80's even with 24 bulbs? That would be pretty perfect. I was even thinking of possibly trying out the IceBox cooling system from Hydro Innovations. It looks way more efficient than an air conditioner. If you type icebox chiller into YouTube you'll see their channel...they've got some interesting videos.

Maybe I will go with the BadBoy after all then. It's much cheaper @ $190 with no bulbs than the Solar Wind which is like $340. Plus with the solar wind you always need to have a duct hooked up to it.

The reason I was thinking of 2x 8 bulb units instead of 1x 16 bulb unit is so that I could make a sort of a tent with the lights, angling each at about a 45 degree angle, then gradually flattening the angle out as things grow. Plus, my aero unit is only about 3.5 ft or so across, so a 16 bulb unit would extend way out over the sides and be wasting light. If I had 3x 8 bulb units, I could make almost a makeshift dome of light over my aero unit with one directly overhead and one on either side.

Now I do remember that the pr0fesseur said something along the lines that having the T5 tilted 90 degrees and placed on the side of the side of the plants is inefficient and wasting light, so if this configuration isn't going to work, someone should stop me right now lol!

I think Petflora was referring to yield not heat.

I'm not sure why you would want to angle the fixtures on a 45*, the inverse square law applies with T5 as well. What you'll be after using T5 is an even canopy where the fixture is as close as possible. I would suggest looking into scrog techniques, keeping the plant wider than it is tall.

 

[PetFlora]

Here's a question that crossed my mind. I got photographed for running a red light. They can zoom in on your license plate. So I'm thinking what (if any) spectrum would obscure their lens from seeing the plate. Perjhpas an simple LED would do the trick. Anybody?

RedO: I was referring to production. Never said anything about heat. Go back, maybe a week ago, I posted info on cheap banquet tents with steel frames ranging from 6 X 6 (< $120) on up. 2 @ 8 gives you a lot more flexibility to boot.

 

[Redoctober]

Petflora: Ah, I thought when you said 2 8 lamp fixtures will compare "production wise" I thought you meant heat but as UnderCurrent said, it was yield you were talking about lol! I figured as much...it just didn't seem right that an 8 lamp Badboy would get as hot as a 600W HPS.

I agree, it definitely should stack up yield wise. Most of the grows in this thread have been with less watts than would be used with an HPS, and even then, I bet the yields will be comparable.

People so often cite lumens of HPS being much higher from an HID light but as the pr0fesseur so astutely pointed out, lumens are a measurement for "humans" to use when setting up interior or exterior illumination because it measures light intensity in our eye's spectrum. Watts (radient flux) are a much better metric for comparing output. People so often say that T5 or LED doesn't compare yield-wise but the vast majority of those comparisons are made by people using far less watts than they would with HID lights. I would bet anything that watt for watt, both T5 and LED match or exceed HID light results provided they are set up with the correct PAR spectrum.

I'm not sure why you would want to angle the fixtures on a 45*, the inverse square law applies with T5 as well. What you'll be after using T5 is an even canopy where the fixture is as close as possible. I would suggest looking into scrog techniques, keeping the plant wider than it is tall.

Yeah I guess the 45 degree angle probably isn't the most efficient way to get 2 lights over my aero unit, but how else could I get 2 or 3 Badboys(8 lamp units) to fit over a 3.5ft wide unit? I suppose 4x 4 lamp units could be arranged more efficiently than 2x 8 lamp units, but that's going to get expensive! I was thinking that the more like a semicircle, or hemisphere(dome) I could arrange the lights over the plants, the better it would be.

 

[Calrt]

Find me one![/QUOTE

wow ... do you know how to use Google??

uhhh, yes....still doesn't appear to be USA parts....but its a start. I have sent them an email for more info and never heard back either...

 

[AltarNation]

According to the company it spikes at 633nm and to me it looks around 630nm. You are looking at the center of the spike not where it peaks which is on the very right side (red) of the spike. You want both 630 nm and 660 nm. So that's what the redsun and fiji purple do. The chart floating around is for the deltec giesemann fiji purple which was supposedly the exact same spectrum as korallen zucht fiji purple.

This is what I like to hear

In my flower on my T5, Im rockin 3 fiji purps, 3 redsuns , 2 coral waves and they are kicking ass.

Right on, that's pretty close to my line up, except I left a super actinic in place of one of the red suns and a 75.25 in place of one of the fiji purps I am quite pleased!! Infact I'm almost ready for a nother set of pics I think, hehe. Hairs are changing... and I am salivating...

 

[AltarNation]

Then their chart is probably wrong and they're really around 633 instead of 615.

But if that's the case, how well can we trust other UVL charts?

Who knows. How far can we trust anything in this world man?

 

[AltarNation]

Here's my first question which has been touched on briefly and it's about heat. Never having owned a T5, I am completely unacquainted with how much heat they give off. It sounded like the 8 lamp units give off a fair bit, not from the lamps themselves but from the ballasts, which is why the pr0fessor was looking to keep the ballasts separate and outside the grow space. I don't really think this is feasible for me, so my options are to go with the Badboy and try to rig some kind of cool tube thing like...like...geez, I can't remember now if it was Altar, or DWC who did it (forgive me, it's been a long read). Or the other choice is to go with the air cooled Solar Wind which is significantly more expensive and can't be run without a cooling fan from what I understand. Both of these have drawbacks especially since I wanted to do a relatively equivalent watt run with the T5's to my two 600W HPS lamps. This would mean 3, 8 Lamp BadBoy's...24 bulbs total equaling 1296W. From what I understand about what you all have said, these would throw off a significant amount of heat. My grow room is roughly 10x10x9. I was hoping to use CO2 and thus keep my room sealed, but with that many lamps would that be feasible?

I guess I'm wondering what the best course of action would be to allow for the use of CO2 and a sealed room while mediating the heat from the T5 ballasts?

Welcome Red, welcome. Glad to have another grower joining us in here.

The "cool tube for ballasts" was mine... it's working GREAT, by the way. It basically keeps my cramped grow room comfortably at 70-75 while before (when the air was allowed to just float into the space) my limited CFM fan (240) was only able to keep it down for half a day and I was pushing 85 by the end of the light cycle!! :O That is why I implemented it and it worked PERFECTLY. The only better thing would be if I could build an enclosure for the whole thing and get the bulbs in there too.

But really the heat is not bad at all now that I have this set up.

I would say that since you are working with CO2 and you WANT it around 85, if you cooltubed the ballasts or did something similar, you could probably get away with it even though you're using 3x the lights. The key is to suck that heat off right as soon as it's being created, before it builds in the room at all.

Not sure what kind of fan you're using, but mine is wimpy as hell, a 240cfm whisperline... so if you get a decent inline fan I think you could have some really good luck with that setup, especially considering you actually want it 10 degrees higher for CO2. I'm assuming you're in a relatively cool climate though.

Edit!: Waaaait... ack, I forgot that a C02 grow is usually closed environment so that would mean you can't vent at all? I don't think you're going to get away with 3x8 bulb units with no ventilation unless you run an A/C... personally, I would get a decent CFM fan, duct all three ballast boxes, and ditch the CO2. But that's me.

 

[AltarNation]

Sorry I spoke out of my depth/experience. I am reading the thread again. I didn't absorb all that I should have. Going through a second time, I understand better and I will take more away after the second read.

I believe that if you're using fiji purps you're getting a dose of green already... coral waves have a bump of green too, though not much. I have no idea if this is ample though. Pr0f?

 

[AltarNation]

The reason I was thinking of 2x 8 bulb units instead of 1x 16 bulb unit is so that I could make a sort of a tent with the lights, angling each at about a 45 degree angle, then gradually flattening the angle out as things grow. Plus, my aero unit is only about 3.5 ft or so across, so a 16 bulb unit would extend way out over the sides and be wasting light. If I had 3x 8 bulb units, I could make almost a makeshift dome of light over my aero unit with one directly overhead and one on either side.

There is an alternative, in the sense that you can just pull the bulbs from the exterior slots until you need them. Then you'll save power as those won't be running.

 

[organicbynature]

I believe that if you're using fiji purps you're getting a dose of green already... coral waves have a bump of green too, though not much. I have no idea if this is ample though. Pr0f?

Prof uses 75.25s for green in his mix. They are "75% Actinic 03 & 25% Tri-band phosphors".

 

[AltarNation]

Okay, cool. I kept the 75.25 in through veg and flower. That must have been why. I can barely remember why I bought what I bought at this point, heh.

 

[Redoctober]

The "cool tube for ballasts" was mine... it's working GREAT, by the way. It basically keeps my cramped grow room comfortably at 70-75 while before (when the air was allowed to just float into the space) my limited CFM fan (240) was only able to keep it down for half a day and I was pushing 85 by the end of the light cycle!! :O That is why I implemented it and it worked PERFECTLY. The only better thing would be if I could build an enclosure for the whole thing and get the bulbs in there too.

Ok , that's a good standard against which I can measure. Thanks. How's your grow going? You must be approaching the finish line by now no?

I would say that since you are working with CO2 and you WANT it around 85, if you cooltubed the ballasts or did something similar, you could probably get away with it even though you're using 3x the lights. The key is to suck that heat off right as soon as it's being created, before it builds in the room at all.

I think I would have to "cooltube" em like you said if I am going to run 3 or 4 Badboys in one room, same as with HPS.

Not sure what kind of fan you're using, but mine is wimpy as hell, a 240cfm whisperline... so if you get a decent inline fan I think you could have some really good luck with that setup, especially considering you actually want it 10 degrees higher for CO2. I'm assuming you're in a relatively cool climate though.

I have an 8" 720 cfm fan running through my filter now. It does a pretty decent job of keeping the room temps down, though my next investment in addition to the T5's is a chiller. Thankfully my rez is small, only about 12 gallons or so.

Edit!: Waaaait... ack, I forgot that a C02 grow is usually closed environment so that would mean you can't vent at all? I don't think you're going to get away with 3x8 bulb units with no ventilation unless you run an A/C... personally, I would get a decent CFM fan, duct all three ballast boxes, and ditch the CO2. But that's me.

Yeah I have never run CO2 before and wanted to try it out as it increases yield and decreases flowering time, but unfortunately I wouldn't be able to vent the room like before with a filter, fan and duct. I would have to make a closed system type of duct line taking cool air from outside and running it through sealed reflectors or cooltubes and out of the room without ever mingling with the ambient room air. This is kind of a pain in the ass and I'm wondering if it's really worth it just to use CO2. But if CO2 can increase yield by 20% then I suppose it is. I think if I go this route, like you said I'll have to get those Solar Wind units because I just don't have the time or energy to build my own cooltube like you did...Great job on that btw! The Solar Wind units do exactly what you said, they keep the bulbs and ballast completely enclosed and sealed so that you can evacuate the heat through a duct line. But they do cost a helluvalot more and require the whole duct setup ....Blurg!!!! (as Liz Lemon would say)

 

[AltarNation]

Hahaha... yeah man, I would love to get the solar wind units instead. Those are sick. I get what you're saying about enclosed ducting in and out... it would be hard but doable... as you can see in the pic, the way I have mine setup it sucks air right from around the light, not outside the room.

I think if you are going to do a chiller setup you could make it work though... I like that idea. I looked up the icebox on youtube and watched a nice demo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0uRrMvfucY

Definitely a cool idea man, I want to do something like that someday! But it seems like it would be expensive to set up too. Still, chiller seems better than A/C, as he said it is more efficient.

And thanks for the props on the cooltube solution... it's so ghetto but it really does work.


As for my grow, I am estimating 2-4 weeks left for them. They're a variety of seeds, all "bag seed" technically but half of them were high quality blueberry seeds from a grow my friend did from purchased seeds that ended up pollinating.

This is my first grow ever so I really don't know when they'll be done! But I am definitely starting to get there... the last pics I put up were on page 120: https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/358190-led-without-leds-my-first-120.html


Definitely still have some time left though. Maybe less than 2 on the most mature one, but expecting closer to 4. Darn, I wanted to give some away for Christmas. Gonna have to wait til after it cures though I guess!! heh.

 

[UnderCurrentDWC]

I'm not sure why you would use an Ice box & water chiller to cool vented air from the hood?

 

[Redoctober]

So I'm putting together (mostly for my own reference) a list of the bulbs, suppliers and links. I think this will be a good reference for others as well and I'm sure I will edit this list as people offer up other links as well as corrections to my list. Btw please check my work and if anyone spots anything wrong or out of place, don't hesitate to point it out as this will be for everyone. I was assuming 48" 54W bulbs for these links. For some sites, a lower price is listed if you buy in bulk but I just listed the single bulb prices here. Aquarium Specialty seems to be the only place that has everything but I have ordered other stuff from BulkReefSupply and can vouch for them. They are very good and have good customer support.

Fiji Purple

BulkReefSupply - $26.99

Aquarium Specialty - $31.40

Aquacave - $27.99

UVL Super Actinic @ 420nm

BulkReefSupply - $19.79

Aquarium Specialty (VHO) Internal Reflector -$20.95

Aquarium Specialty - $23.00

Marine Depot - $18.50

UVL 75.25

Aquarium Specialty - $23.00

Aquarium Specialty VHO Internal Reflector-$20.95

BulkReefSupply - $19.79

UVL 454

Marine Depot - $18.50

Aquarium Specialty - $23.00

BulkReefSupply - $22.49

UVL Red Sun (Red Life)

Aquarium Specialty - $19.95

Marine Depot - $21.95

Wave Point Coral Wave (ATI Pro Color Replacement)

Aquarium Specialty - $14.75

 

[UnderCurrentDWC]

Aq specialty is backordered on UVL Actanic+ & 454's with Internal reflectors.

I've been waiting for over a month!