PetFlora
Well-Known Member
Add one Coral Wave per 8 bulbs, and I think you've approximated the infamous Fiji graph. Anyway, that's what I was shooting for
LED Without LEDs -My First T5 Grow
- Thread starter pr0fesseur
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PetFlora
Well-Known Member
I just chopped BK 1 yesterday as she never recovered from whatever I did. And I am thinking about that. The primary and secondary leaves all turned light brown. I thought this was from internal nute burn, but now wondering whether it was from having 2/8 Coral Waves, which could have burned them up. I pulled the second one, but only during the last week. By then, the damage (however it was caused) was done. It could be all the above contributed- high pH + >1900 ppms due to high water consumption + 2/8 Coral Waves. But of too much UV & IR is bad for us, they could also be bad for our plants. NO?
Lucius Vorenus
Well-Known Member
Man it would be great if more people were actually posting videos of successful grows with T5's and pics.
okthanks2
Active Member
I HIGHLY doubt any aquarium bulb on the market has the capability to damage a plant unless it is actually touching the leaves. 1900 PPM?????? that is REALLY high. I only use 950 ppm at the most for hydro. I know it's a bit different but still seems high. Anyway, back to the drawing board!
...mayby this is a plus tomas tell me all his secrets 
Redoctober
Well-Known Member
This is great! Thanks Psy! I was actually rereading the entire thread the other day and demarcating the pages where people talked about their bulb configurations and was probably so preoccupied with that aspect that I completely glossed over the section you are talking about haha.
I too was looking at the AquaMedic Plant Grow which does seem to have a 650-660nm spike as well as 430ish, 550, and wasted 600 peaks. It looks fairly good as far as compromising for the Fiji. One down side is that they are roughly the same price as the Fiji, but at least we have a valid spectrum to run with. I read a few different reviews so I thought I'd post em and see what you guys think:
AquaMedic Plant Grow Reviews:
Source: http://www.aquacave.com/plant-grow-t5-lamps-brby-aquamedic-982.html
The bulbs are much better than the stock bulbs. I was recommended to these bulbs due to a black algae problem in my tank. Following installation, my plants are growing well and the black algae does not seem to be advancing. These bulbs work as advertised.
Next Review:
I am using two of these lamps in a four-lamp T5 fixture over an 80g high tech freshwater planted tank. I recently replaced two of four "no-name" 6500K lamps with these Aqua Medic Lamps, and the results are astounding. The plants are all pearling at a phenomenal rate. These lamps are now a "must" for my tank. The next experiment for me will be to replace the remaining two "no-name" broad spectrum lamps with two fresh broad spectrum lamps (Giesemann PowerChrome midday 6000K lamps?).
Source:http://www.aquascape-boutique.fr/AQUAMEDIC-PLANT-GROW-24W
Plant Grow is a growth lamp for plants in fresh water aquariums. The lamp accentuates the red and blue parts of the spectrum and comes close to the absorption spectrum of water plants. These wave lengths stimulate photosynthesis and so create excellent condition for luxuriant plant growth. In addition the colours become more vibrant in any fish with red pigmentation
Here is a rather scathing review that gave me pause about buying this bulb but please take this with a major grain of salt because first and foremost, it is from 2006. So is a review from 5 years ago really applicable today? Probably not. Also it is the only negative review I have found. I would hope that all of these issues have been corrected at this point in time or else I'd be reading plentiful negative reviews all over vendors websites which I am not. On the contrary, contemporary buyers seem quite pleased with their performance, but I figured I'd post it anyway for posterity sake:
taken from: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/reviews/showproduct.php/product/122/sort/1/cat/52/page/
There is a long version and a short version of this review, long version being my experience with the bulbs and short version being the bottom line.
----------------------------------------------------
Short version: AquaMedic planta bulbs are truly an unacceptable choice for any planted tank for the following reasons:
-Their intensity is less than or equal to standard T8-T12 bulbs. The intensity drops at an astounding rate as the bulb gets older.
-Due to very weak intensity, plants do not pearl.
-Also due to weak intensity, plants grow slowly, stunt, or end up dying.
-The spectrum will make your plants look washed out; red plants will become brown
-The color these bulbs produce is a very dull pink, not aesthetically pleasing at all.
-They burn out within 6 months, 8 months tops.
-They are a potential fire hazzard. When they burn out, the glass on the ends cracks and/or melts.
Bottom line: Do not buy Planta bulbs. They're a waste of money and your plants will do horrible. As a much better alternative, look into GE StarCoat 6500k bulbs.
----------------------------------------------------
Long version: This is my experience with AquaMedic's bulbs. Others on the forums have confirmed having the same problems.
My fixture is 6 feet long and holds 8x39w HO T5 bulbs. When I first installed the fixuture, lighting was staggered 4x10,000k AquaMedic and 4xPlanta AquaMedic bulbs. Within 5-6 months, 6 of 8 bulbs had burnt out. And by burnt out, I don't mean they just stopped working. Apparently they became so hot that the glass near the ends of the bulbs had melted. After conversing with other members, this seems to be common with AquaMedic bulbs. I can't help but think AquaMedic's bulbs may pose some sort of fire hazzard. After all, glass has to get very hot to melt.
Plants seem to do decent with the 10,000k/Planta combo. I assume this was only because of the 10,000k bulbs.
I had cheap and easy access to more AquaMedic Planta bulbs, so I replaced all bulbs with AquaMedic Planta bulbs.
Within 3 months of putting all Planta bulbs in my fixture, the limited intensity they started with had dropped to the point that plants were starting to stretch for light(long internode spaces, etc.).
Within 5 months, 4 of the 8 brand new bulbs had burnt out, again with glass cracking and/or melting. My plants had absolutely no red at all, just dull brown. Many plants had stunted or died. There was absolutely no pearling in the tank with CO2 levels at 30ppm+.
I replaced the burnt out bulbs this time with GE 6500k bulbs, and moved the 4 remaining bulbs to one side of the tank. When I first turned on the fixture, I was instantly blinded by looking at the GE bulbs. They were at *least* 5-6 times brighter than the Planta bulbs. Within 2 minutes of the fixture being turned on, all plants on the GE side of the tank were pearling like mad. The Planta side of the tank looked dark and dull... Plants looked pale and dying. Within a few days of the GE6500k bulbs being on the tank, the bright reds I've always wanted had shown up and the plants have grown about 4-5 times faster than they did with the Planta bulbs.
Planta bulbs are by far the absolute worst bulbs I have ever owned.
Redoctober
Well-Known Member
All that being said, I think I will try a few AquaMedic Plant Grows and see. They seem like the best choice for capturing that 660nm peak. I know I posted it, but I wouldn't put too much stock in that bad review.
Also I need my fixture before I can do anything. I think I've settled on the New Wave 8 lamp HO T5. It's ballasts are advertised to put out zero heat and zero noise, which I'm not sure I believe, but since no one else's fixture makes that claim, I thought it was worth a shot.
Psy, I couldn't find any actual spectral graphs for the Zoo Med bulbs, do you know where those might be found?
Also I need my fixture before I can do anything. I think I've settled on the New Wave 8 lamp HO T5. It's ballasts are advertised to put out zero heat and zero noise, which I'm not sure I believe, but since no one else's fixture makes that claim, I thought it was worth a shot.
Psy, I couldn't find any actual spectral graphs for the Zoo Med bulbs, do you know where those might be found?
okthanks2
Active Member
The Plant Grow was the first bulb I was thinking of getting before seeing the "color spectrum" that was posted as the Fiji Purple. I switched because I thought it was the real spectrum chart. Now that I have had a chance to see it first hand, I realize that it is way on the blue side of the spectrum. As I researched bulbs further, I noticed that the best bulb I could find in that 660nm region was the ATI ProColor which has been discontinued as was stated earlier in this thread. Supposedly it was discontinued because it is a bit on the red side, which is what all of us seem to be searching for. There are a few stores that still have these bulbs in stock in the 2 ft, 24watt size. Not sure how many however. The Aqua Medic Plant Grow have a fairly similar spectrum. The only way to say for sure would be to compare the light side by side. They both look fairly PINK from what I've seen in photos online. There is also the Sylvania Gro-Lux bulb which DOES exist in a T5 HO, but unfortunately only in Europe. Here are the spectral analysis of all of them:
Aqua Medic Plant grow
Ati ProColor
Sylvania Gro-Lux, Narrow spectrum top, Wide spectrum bottom.
Strangely enough, the Gro-Lux narrow spectrum looks exactly like that mystery KZ Fiji spectrum that is floating around the internet.......must be the Gro-Lux spectrum.
Aqua Medic Plant grow
Ati ProColor
Sylvania Gro-Lux, Narrow spectrum top, Wide spectrum bottom.
Strangely enough, the Gro-Lux narrow spectrum looks exactly like that mystery KZ Fiji spectrum that is floating around the internet.......must be the Gro-Lux spectrum.
organicbynature
Active Member
I posted the Zoo Med graphs back on page 111 (link). They had no problem providing them for me via email.
Gosh - it's like people don't memorize all 149 pages of this thread or something! We could probably use an FAQ/Index.
I'm currently running Flora Suns along with Coral Waves for side lighting. I'm also going to add Red Suns in the future.
The Flora Sun has as good a "base bulb" graph as I've seen (from what's available), though I'm also somewhat interested in the Roseate. I think it's supposed to have like 20% yellow/green light - meh, could be worse.
I'd love to hear what you think of your new fixture and what kind of heat it puts off. When will you get it?
okthanks2
Active Member
I am running a couple Flora Suns, but they put out a lot of unusable light. The whole point of this thread was to try and find bulbs that only put out the usable wavelengths (or closest to that). The Flora Sun puts out a warm white color. I just purchased a few different ones to compare. ATI ProColor, Aqua Medic, Plant Grow, and Sylvania Gro-Lux T5 HO (from Germany). Needless to say, I am sure I will have quite a few bulbs left over after finding the ones that my plants like the best. LOL
hyroot
Well-Known Member
I have been using 3 kz fiji purps along with 3 uvl redsun and 2 coral wave. I like the results from that combo. I will continue to use it and when I get another t5 I will most likely buy that same combo of bulbs again. I probably wont use them for veg though. For that I would just use a combo ov uvl redsuns and uvl super actinics. Not sure ho many of which yet til I completely change out all the 6500 bulbs.
okthanks2
Active Member
My plants have really responded well to the new Red Suns. I am now beginning to think that the Red side of the spectrum is pretty damn important throughout the entire plant's life. The problem with florescent lighting IS getting the right phosphors for Red. The technology of florescent lighting is based around the Blue end of the spectrum. That is why there are few options for the Red side. I will be able to do a full comparison between the bulbs I have mentioned in the previous post within the next couple of weeks and hopefully be able to narrow the list down to just a few bulbs rather than a few hundred. :/
organicbynature
Active Member
Can we get a shot of those different lights running together to compare color?
I like the Flora Sun chart, but the light is whiter than I expected, as well.
Here's the chart again with an overlay showing the PAR curve:
okthanks2
Active Member
I will most definitely post a photo of the bulbs running side by side when I receive them. I just placed the order today, so it will be however long it takes to receive the T5's from Germany. Until then, keep running the Red Suns and Super Actinics for sure. It seems like there has to be something missing from only running those 2 bulbs for veg, but the light quality of the purple hued mixture that is emitted appears really bright and clear. Seems to be of a much richer and higher quality light than LED. IMO
organicbynature
Active Member
You might want to throw one or two regular, white T5s in there while you're waiting on your other bulbs. You're working with some pretty narrow-spectrum bulbs in super actinics and Red Suns.
Looking forward to that comparative pic!
hyroot
Well-Known Member
Ok I take back what I said obout the fiji's. I just took half of what I chopped down and put into jars. I got much less than I expected. I was expecting an hp and got 5 oz. Granted they had a few deficiency's when they went into flower and bug issues this round and some of them were smaller than before. The quality is unreal. I started looking at th bulbs and the fiji purps do look more blue than the coral waves. So it seems there is more blue than red. So I am thinking of swapping out 2 fiji purps with redsuns then possibly throw the fiji purps into veg. I know thats the opposite of what I said. But after seeing my yield, the drunk goggles came off. on the other hand there were many other factors that I never had to deal with before. So I cant really judge this batch. This might just be some bitter ramblings though.
Redoctober
Well-Known Member
Thanks organic! I definitely didn't memorize all 149 pages, but it appears you did Rainman
I like the Flora Sun graph, especially the far red 760 peak for flowering, but there does appear to be a decent amount of wasted peaks there. That's a very strong 545 peak as well as a 610 which probably accounts for 30-40% of the bulb's output. I know we do need some green in there but this may be overkill. Thanks for obtaining all those graphs from Zoo Med!
okthanks, I'm very interested in that Gro-Lux bulb. I assume you are in the US? How was the shipping charge on those boys? The Gro-Lux and the AquaMedic Plant Grow could be the new base bulbs. It is indeed hard to find red T5's and unfortunately most of the aquarium applications are based on the visual appeal of how they make the tank and the fish look rather than attacking it from a plant growing mindset. Most fish tank people are growing coral, and perhaps coral needs less red wavelengths than land based plants. After all, blue light is absorbed least by ocean water, so this is what coral receive the most of, and have probably evolved to make more efficient use of blue light and have less of a need for the red wavelengths. Thus aquarium bulbs would be geared more toward the actinic side of the spectrum. Just a theory.
Redoctober
Well-Known Member
NOooooooooooo! Sorry man. I know you had high hopes, but it WAS a first experiment, so you can't be too concerned with yield until we all get this dialed in. Also we don't even know what the Fiji spectrum is so it could have been a waste of 108W (assuming you had 2 of them in there) of light which is fairly significant. Also you were only using 432W as compared to a 600W or 1000W HPS that you would normally have. I'm sure watt for watt, T5 matches or exceeds HPS, and if it didn't I'd like a scientific explanation for why not.
Perhaps we may need to load even heavier on the red side during flower than we had originally thought. Instead of 60/40 maybe 70/30? What do you guys think?
Got any pics even though it didn't quite meet your expectations? Also how would you describe the buds? Were they light and airy? Or hard and dense?
hyroot
Well-Known Member
The buds are just as dense. They look amazing. More color and very frosty and very sticky.
4 of them only got 2 week veg time and the rest had 5 weeks. The 2 week ones replaced others that were doing horrible thanks to the WACK Dr. Earth Soil. Never use that again. Also I did not cut off any lower growth this round either. I wanted to see if these bulbs could penetrate to the lower buds. If they were spread out more they probably would have swelled more. I have sveral more to chop his weekend and those have been the most healthy so .......
I'm going back to my former techniques. so we will see in 6 weeks or so if they do better than this round.
my problem is I keep experimenting with different things every batch.......
I'm thinking of rocking just 5 uvl redsun , 2 coral wave, and 1 uvl super actinic for flower. For now im just going to swap out 2 bulbs for now.
I have some going at the same time now with 1000w and t5 and the ones under the t5 have slightly bigger buds too. They are all at 3 weeks. these ones got the proper veg time and were very healthy all through veg, went back to ffof soil.
PetFlora
Well-Known Member
Believe me I know better, and still.
The thing is. during veg she was very happy at ~1300. But then she wasn't sucking water like a drunken sailor.
The game changes during flower, and I failed to account for it. The problem was multiplied by increased ppm in the rez due to extreme water consumption to feed all those bud cribs combined with ~ 45 minute flood cycles. She slow cooked from the inside, and no amount of flushing saved her.
The ~ 45-60 minute flood cycles seem fine during flower, but I will make sure to keep next plants under 800 during flower, and increase time between flooding when I am away for a few hours. Also, thinking to expand flooding to ~ 2 hours during flower.