LED Without LEDs -My First T5 Grow

[PetFlora]

I would have tagged this with a LIKE, but for some reason it's not working. Man all this addictive behavior about a bulb (Fiji) we never had any spectral proof of. Yes Pr0f recommended it, but geez, he is human.

Ok I take back what I said about the fiji's. I just took half of what I chopped down and put into jars. I got much less than I expected. I was expecting an hp and got 5 oz. Granted they had a few deficiency's when they went into flower and bug issues this round and some of them were smaller than before. The quality is unreal. I started looking at the bulbs and the fiji purps do look more blue than the coral waves. So it seems there is more blue than red. So I am thinking of swapping out 2 fiji purps with red suns then possibly throw the fiji purps into veg. I know thats the opposite of what I said. But after seeing my yield, the drunk goggles came off. on the other hand there were many other factors that I never had to deal with before. So I cant really judge this batch. This might just be some bitter ramblings though.

 

[PetFlora]

The buds are just as dense. They look amazing. More color and very frosty and very sticky.

4 of them only got 2 week veg time and the rest had 5 weeks. The 2 week ones replaced others that were doing horrible thanks to the WACK Dr. Earth Soil. Never use that again. Also I did not cut off any lower growth this round either. I wanted to see if these bulbs could penetrate to the lower buds. If they were spread out more they probably would have swelled more. I have sveral more to chop his weekend and those have been the most healthy so .......

I'm going back to my former techniques. so we will see in 6 weeks or so if they do better than this round.

my problem is I keep experimenting with different things every batch.......

I'm thinking of rocking just 5 uvl redsun , 2 coral wave, and 1 uvl super actinic for flower. For now im just going to swap out 2 bulbs for now.

I have some going at the same time now with 1000w and t5 and the ones under the t5 have slightly bigger buds too. They are all at 3 weeks. these ones got the proper veg time and were very healthy all through veg, went back to ffof soil.

I use UVL AQUA Suns in veg; UVL Red Sun/Life in flower

 

[Lucius Vorenus]

What do you guys think about using T5's for a commercial grower? Practical with all the bulb switching? Im talking a 2 room with 24 plants in flower type operation that is currently running 8 1000's in each room.

 

[Psytranceorgy]

What do you guys think about using T5's for a commercial grower? Practical with all the bulb switching? Im talking a 2 room with 24 plants in flower type operation that is currently running 8 1000's in each room.

I believe that it is possible to come up with a viable commercial PAR T5 solution that would involve minimal bulb switching...

As far as yields... It looks like the proof is not yet in the pudding. I do want to say that I wish I was able participate in the amazing research being performed here, but my current situation is LED panels supplemented with CFL. Works great for me, so I have no need to replace it. But I would love to build a PAR T5 in a similar space and run comparisons, but... ***sigh*** I am not able to at the moment for several reasons. Anyways, MANY THANKS to those of you who are pushing the research!!! Keep the pictures coming!!! =D =D =D

 

[Lucius Vorenus]

I believe that it is possible to come up with a viable commercial PAR T5 solution that would involve minimal bulb switching...

I'd love to hear one!

 

[Psytranceorgy]

I'd love to hear one!

Seriously? Suggestions for bulb configurations are found all throughout this thread...

I could come up with a configuration to suggest to you, but my suggestions are purely theoretical. In fact I have previously posted some suggestions earlier on in this thread for an 8 bulb setup, which once you had a good 8 bulb setup, you could basically just repeat/scale out as big as you want from there, but yeah, I am not actually growing with a PAR T5 setup.

I would listen to someone like UnderCurrentDWC who is actually growing with PAR T5 in a "larger" space, and having what looks to me like great success! AlterNation, PetFlora, murshdawg, organicbynature, of course the pr0f himself, and increasingly many others here are also actually growing with PAR T5 setups and dicussing their results... It's a work in progress!

So I say to you, do the research, take the plunge and build your own PAR T5 setup, and let us know the results! Many of the bulb choices involved here come down to personal decisions, and the results are not yet documented, so JOIN IN THE FUN =D

 

[Calrt]

I have my two tents up and going and went dark for 12hrs last night. 6 plants in each tent, one tent is a 600w air cooled reflector hood with a digital ballast and Hortilux bulb. The other is a 8 bulb Bad Boy with 3 Red Suns, 2 Fijis, 2 454s and 1 75.25. I have two Coral Waves that will be here Monday that I will put in place of the 454s. Aquarium Specialies screwed me and did not ship them 3 day when they said they would....All 12 came out from being Vegged under a 600w MH and are 18-24" tall and a little lankey. They spent one day in Veg with my set up and already the T5 plants perked up better. One even grew itself into one of the bulbs over night! I had at least a 4" gap from the closest plant too. It was split between the 454 bulb and Red Sun if it matters. Anyway, I will try to keep you all posted!

 

[organicbynature]

Thanks organic! I definitely didn't memorize all 149 pages, but it appears you did Rainman

I like the Flora Sun graph, especially the far red 760 peak for flowering, but there does appear to be a decent amount of wasted peaks there. That's a very strong 545 peak as well as a 610 which probably accounts for 30-40% of the bulb's output. I know we do need some green in there but this may be overkill. Thanks for obtaining all those graphs from Zoo Med!

okthanks, I'm very interested in that Gro-Lux bulb. I assume you are in the US? How was the shipping charge on those boys? The Gro-Lux and the AquaMedic Plant Grow could be the new base bulbs. It is indeed hard to find red T5's and unfortunately most of the aquarium applications are based on the visual appeal of how they make the tank and the fish look rather than attacking it from a plant growing mindset. Most fish tank people are growing coral, and perhaps coral needs less red wavelengths than land based plants. After all, blue light is absorbed least by ocean water, so this is what coral receive the most of, and have probably evolved to make more efficient use of blue light and have less of a need for the red wavelengths. Thus aquarium bulbs would be geared more toward the actinic side of the spectrum. Just a theory.

I think you got this, but I was of course joking about memorizing the thread and serious about an FAQ/Index. This thread has been such a learning process, it's probably a pretty big thing for new folks to tackle at this point, with information spread all throughout. Maybe we can put something together as a group and the Prof can link to it in the initial post.

I agree the Flora Sun is not perfect, I just haven't come across anything that has a better graph to my eyes. The 550 spike is tall but narrow, so as I understand it there isn't a lot of actual wattage going into it (am I wrong about this?). There is also a spike at ~610-615 as you note. This is actually where the peak is on the Red Sun graph, though it sounds like the Red Suns are really at 630 and their chart is just not very good. Also, HPS are heavily focused in this yellow/orange area and while it's not the most efficient part of the spectrum, it's far from wasted.

It's worth pointing out that nobody besides for me, I think, has really latched onto this bulb - so it's not very popular right now. I'm not thrilled with the bulb color, but don't have a lot to compare it to. I don't see any graphs I like better for a base bulb though. It's a broader spectrum bulb to be sure, but one that fits the shape of the PAR curve quite well. But is it as good as it looks in the chart even? Beats me.

hyroot - sorry to hear your yield was lower than expected! Keep us updated!

 

[AltarNation]

Ok I take back what I said obout the fiji's. I just took half of what I chopped down and put into jars. I got much less than I expected. I was expecting an hp and got 5 oz. Granted they had a few deficiency's when they went into flower and bug issues this round and some of them were smaller than before. The quality is unreal. I started looking at th bulbs and the fiji purps do look more blue than the coral waves. So it seems there is more blue than red. So I am thinking of swapping out 2 fiji purps with redsuns then possibly throw the fiji purps into veg. I know thats the opposite of what I said. But after seeing my yield, the drunk goggles came off. on the other hand there were many other factors that I never had to deal with before. So I cant really judge this batch. This might just be some bitter ramblings though.

Hmm... a little confused... are you saying that you WERE pro fiji purp, but now you're not so sure? Or the other way around?

 

[okthanks2]

The buds are just as dense. They look amazing. More color and very frosty and very sticky.

4 of them only got 2 week veg time and the rest had 5 weeks. The 2 week ones replaced others that were doing horrible thanks to the WACK Dr. Earth Soil. Never use that again. Also I did not cut off any lower growth this round either. I wanted to see if these bulbs could penetrate to the lower buds. If they were spread out more they probably would have swelled more. I have sveral more to chop his weekend and those have been the most healthy so .......

I'm going back to my former techniques. so we will see in 6 weeks or so if they do better than this round.

my problem is I keep experimenting with different things every batch.......

I'm thinking of rocking just 5 uvl redsun , 2 coral wave, and 1 uvl super actinic for flower. For now im just going to swap out 2 bulbs for now.

I have some going at the same time now with 1000w and t5 and the ones under the t5 have slightly bigger buds too. They are all at 3 weeks. these ones got the proper veg time and were very healthy all through veg, went back to ffof soil.

What sort of problems did you have with the Dr. Earth soil? Also, there are a few different kinds of Dr. Earth soil so which one were you using? I am curious because I just swapped all the Fox Farm Ocean Forest shit out for the Dr. Earth because of HUGE PROBLEMS with the Fox Farm shit. I will NEVER purchase another FOX FARM product again. I have only just switched to the Dr. Earth brand and got the all purpose potting soil. So far so good. PH is spot on, no bugs yet (knock on wood). Keep in mind, the majority of the time the reason there are bugs in soil is because of where the distributors store it. It usually isn't the manufacturer's fault. The PH problem with the Ocean Forest, however, IS the manufacturer's fault. The PH is 7.8 of the last batch! Also, it depends on what plant it was made out of. I have only experienced good things with the N. Cali plant for Fox "Farm. "There is a new one out east that I have only heard bad things from.

 

[Lucius Vorenus]

Seriously? Suggestions for bulb configurations are found all throughout this thread...

I could come up with a configuration to suggest to you, but my suggestions are purely theoretical. In fact I have previously posted some suggestions earlier on in this thread for an 8 bulb setup, which once you had a good 8 bulb setup, you could basically just repeat/scale out as big as you want from there, but yeah, I am not actually growing with a PAR T5 setup.

I would listen to someone like UnderCurrentDWC who is actually growing with PAR T5 in a "larger" space, and having what looks to me like great success! AlterNation, PetFlora, murshdawg, organicbynature, of course the pr0f himself, and increasingly many others here are also actually growing with PAR T5 setups and dicussing their results... It's a work in progress!

So I say to you, do the research, take the plunge and build your own PAR T5 setup, and let us know the results! Many of the bulb choices involved here come down to personal decisions, and the results are not yet documented, so JOIN IN THE FUN =D

Yea yea yea...I know! Hey I just got 3 8 bulb fixtures delivered. Bunch of bulbs on the way, 454, red suns, Fiji, and Actinic. Gonna give it a go with those and see how it goes. Anything has to be better than my current grow of tiny nugs from this Blackstars LED grow. We are gonna move those to the Veg room because they are really good at vegging.

 

[Redoctober]

I think you got this, but I was of course joking about memorizing the thread and serious about an FAQ/Index. This thread has been such a learning process, it's probably a pretty big thing for new folks to tackle at this point, with information spread all throughout. Maybe we can put something together as a group and the Prof can link to it in the initial post.

I agree the Flora Sun is not perfect, I just haven't come across anything that has a better graph to my eyes. The 550 spike is tall but narrow, so as I understand it there isn't a lot of actual wattage going into it (am I wrong about this?). There is also a spike at ~610-615 as you note. This is actually where the peak is on the Red Sun graph, though it sounds like the Red Suns are really at 630 and their chart is just not very good. Also, HPS are heavily focused in this yellow/orange area and while it's not the most efficient part of the spectrum, it's far from wasted.

It's worth pointing out that nobody besides for me, I think, has really latched onto this bulb - so it's not very popular right now. I'm not thrilled with the bulb color, but don't have a lot to compare it to. I don't see any graphs I like better for a base bulb though. It's a broader spectrum bulb to be sure, but one that fits the shape of the PAR curve quite well. But is it as good as it looks in the chart even? Beats me.

hyroot - sorry to hear your yield was lower than expected! Keep us updated!

Yes I was of course kidding...sort of...it actually does appear that you have this thread memorized lol! I think the Index/FAQ would be very helpful; it'd be nice to have a centralized, concise summary of the basic premise of the science involved, a list of the bulbs and their spectral graphs, bulb configurations, and so forth so thread participants (myself included) can stop asking: what the graph for such and such a bulb is, or how do I arrange my 8 lamp fixture? I do think it's important for new people to read the whole thing at least once, as long and tedious as that might be, but even for people like myself who've read it three times, it's still hard to keep track of everything. If it helps get things going, Here are some post numbers where bulb configuration is discussed (this doesn't cover the entire thread, only the first 80 pages or so):

72, 285, 318, 328, 394, 405, 412, 441, 458, 478, 489, 492, 493, 504, 520, 552, 556, 573, 574, 658, 668, 680, 704

As for the Flora Sun Graph I'm not sure about the total percentages and how they are arrived at. Intuitively I would say that if you integrate the area under the curve (calculus 1) you will have the total output of the bulb, so you may be right that narrower peaks mean less total output than wider smoother ones. I'm not positive about this though. So then it would stand to reason that if you used the partial differential equation and integrated just the sectional area of the single peak, then inserted it into a proportional ratio with the entire integral's area, you would theoretically get the percentage output of that one peak.....theoretically. One thing to be careful of is if the y-axis measuring intensity is linear or exponential. I'm pretty sure it's linear, but not all spectral graphs are the same.

All that being said, I'm excited for you to get those AquaMedic and Gro-Lux bulbs! I think they both have great potential!

Yes I think the HPS do have output in the yellow/red range, which would explain a little bit about why they work for flower, but when you really think about it especially in the context of all the science in this thread, it almost doesn't make sense that HPS bulbs are actually as efficient as they are. You'd think that if they only are functioning at roughly 20% PAR, the results would be mediocre at best, yet I think we would all agree that they do still produce pretty well....kind of a head scratcher when you examine it in context of the theory of photosynthesis.

 

[Redoctober]

The buds are just as dense. They look amazing. More color and very frosty and very sticky.

4 of them only got 2 week veg time and the rest had 5 weeks. The 2 week ones replaced others that were doing horrible thanks to the WACK Dr. Earth Soil. Never use that again. Also I did not cut off any lower growth this round either. I wanted to see if these bulbs could penetrate to the lower buds. If they were spread out more they probably would have swelled more. I have sveral more to chop his weekend and those have been the most healthy so .......

I'm going back to my former techniques. so we will see in 6 weeks or so if they do better than this round.

my problem is I keep experimenting with different things every batch.......

I'm thinking of rocking just 5 uvl redsun , 2 coral wave, and 1 uvl super actinic for flower. For now im just going to swap out 2 bulbs for now.

I have some going at the same time now with 1000w and t5 and the ones under the t5 have slightly bigger buds too. They are all at 3 weeks. these ones got the proper veg time and were very healthy all through veg, went back to ffof soil.

I see. Well I guess it's a consolation to know that it likely didn't fall short because of the T5's, but rather the soil/nutrients/veg time. I know all about the temptation to experiment, and therefore I don't conduct proper science myself. I get overeager, and tinker with multiple aspects simultaneously, so then if I get good results, I don't know exactly which variable made the difference, or if was a synergistic effect. Similarly if the results go bad, I don't know which thing I changed caused it either.

Good to hear about the bud morphology...they sound like winners, even though you didn't get the yield you were looking for. It's nice that you are doing a side by side with the 1000W HPS too. It would be interesting to see what would happen if you added another 8 lamp light which would bring you up to 864W of PAR T5 power! That would give your HPS a serious run for it's money. It would be expensive too so I'm not saying you should run out and do this...just a thought

 

[RyanTheRhino]

Hmm... a little confused... are you saying that you WERE pro fiji purp, but now you're not so sure? Or the other way around?

like for a like whats up

 

[hyroot]

Hmm... a little confused... are you saying that you WERE pro fiji purp, but now you're not so sure? Or the other way around?

yep i was pro fiji and now I'm not sure

 

[hyroot]

I see. Well I guess it's a consolation to know that it likely didn't fall short because of the T5's, but rather the soil/nutrients/veg time. I know all about the temptation to experiment, and therefore I don't conduct proper science myself. I get overeager, and tinker with multiple aspects simultaneously, so then if I get good results, I don't know exactly which variable made the difference, or if was a synergistic effect. Similarly if the results go bad, I don't know which thing I changed caused it either.

Good to hear about the bud morphology...they sound like winners, even though you didn't get the yield you were looking for. It's nice that you are doing a side by side with the 1000W HPS too. It would be interesting to see what would happen if you added another 8 lamp light which would bring you up to 864W of PAR T5 power! That would give your HPS a serious run for it's money. It would be expensive too so I'm not saying you should run out and do this...just a thought

I do want to add another t5. i was thinking of getting rid of my 1000w but now i might keep the combo for now until i perfect the t5 and then........

 

[AltarNation]

yep i was pro fiji and now I'm not sure

Well I've got a good bit of fiji purp goin on in mine as well, so we will see what happens. I am still waiting for them to finish up... getting closer.

Unfortunately, since it's my first grow, I won't be much of a gauge either... too many unpredicted variables at work. Had a calcium deficiency... didn't cut with perlite like is recommended for FFOF... and I'm a total fuckin newb, lol.

But still, we'll see how it goes I guess.

Were your figures for all plants combined or what?

 

[okthanks2]

If the Zoo Med Flora Sun spectral analysis was actually CORRECT, the bulb would be emitting WAY more RED than it actually is, and it is not. I would say the chart is indeed, way wrong. It does have a slight pink, but no where near RED.

For now, I am only trying to find the perfect "Veg" bulb formula. All of the plants will then be moved to HPS for flower FOR NOW. My initial purpose for trying to find that perfect Veg combo was to prevent the "shock" that happens when moved from T5 to 1000w HPS. After that, I will work on finding that perfect "Flower" bulb formula. I've also thought that it would be nice to find a spectrum that would work for both flower and veg, but maybe it wouldn't be possible. Eventually it would be very nice to move away from HID lighting altogether. My ultimate goal would be 2, 10 bulb x 4 ft fixtures in a 5' x 5' room with the CO2 at 1300 PPM.

I just finished perfecting the vent that took days and days to finish for my 1000w HPS. I've had to insulate the ductwork so it won't ice up when it brings -20 F degree air in from outside! For the last week ice has been falling down off the ducting on to my head and on the plants, not to mention water dripping onto all the electrical. It has been quite the experience trying to vent ONLY the heat from the light out of the room and keep the heat under control, not to mention keeping the CO2 in the room! But, finally everything has evened out. 75 F degree 24/7. 1300 PPM CO2. NO frost falling off the ducting and/or water. The amount of electricity that is used in order to keep the heat and air exchanges under control in order to use 1000w HID lighting is absolutely insane, not to mention the 1000w FROM JUST THE LIGHT ITSELF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I can't wait for the day I can say "goodbye" to HID and still get the same or BETTER yield. Better quality would be a + as well.

 

[hyroot]

If the fiji purps really have the same amount of blue and red in the visible spectrum they should appear purple like the coral wave does. To all who already got fiji purps and those who did not I came up with a couple new bulb combos for flower......

8 bulb................Coral Wave / Redsun / Fiji Purp / Redsun / Coral Wave / Fiji Purp / Redsun / Coral Wave ( for people who already have fiji and don't want to spend too much more money)

or..................... Redsun / Redsun / Coral Wave / Redsun / Blue Actinic / Coral Wave / Redsun / Redsun


I came up with a new veg combo

6 bulb .........................Blue Actinic / Redsun / Blue Actinic / Blue Actinic / Redsun / Blue actinic


blue actinic ............UV lighting Super blue actinic

 

[okthanks2]

Well I've got a good bit of fiji purp goin on in mine as well, so we will see what happens. I am still waiting for them to finish up... getting closer.

Unfortunately, since it's my first grow, I won't be much of a gauge either... too many unpredicted variables at work. Had a calcium deficiency... didn't cut with perlite like is recommended for FFOF... and I'm a total fuckin newb, lol.

But still, we'll see how it goes I guess.

Were your figures for all plants combined or what?

I have ALWAYS cut the Fox Farm Ocean Forest with Perlite 50/50 with great results, up to the last few months. Fox Farm quality control has gone to shit. Did you try to PH the soil? The last batch of that shit soil was at 7.8. I will NEVER purchase another Fox Farm product again.