The "I don't starve my plants before harvest" thread
- Thread starter SirLancelot
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bamfrivet
Well-Known Member
First post on page 6, where I listed off 4 companies that sell flushing agents. 2 of them are big name brands marketed towards cannabis growers. People have just learned they don't need chemicals to flush. Hopefully people will realize flushing isn't necessary at all.
Water cure you buds if you are afraid that there might be some ferts in you bud.
SirLancelot
Active Member
whoa not quite My understanding of flushing is when people take gallons of water two weeks before harvest and start dumping only water in draining all nutrients from the plant. + Rept for the info on the uptake I appreciate that. But I think we may be a little confused on our seperate points. I understand how the plant takes up nutrients I get that it's stored in certain cells in the leaves and such. I know how important roots are because they are the mouth of the plant (mainly ofcourse you can foliar feed) I just don't see how "chemicals" are just stored in the bud and how dumping water or solutions in the soil rinses the plant clean I just have a hard time grasping this. And how come this isn't a normal thing to do with every plant? If I asked my grandpa who grew up on a farm about flushing he'd have no idea what Im talking about Hell they didn't flush anything I believe he had an outhouse the first half of his life. lol shitty times.
SirLancelot
Active Member
what one, two feedings which is usually a couple teaspoons each. personally Im not worried about the 3.50 I'd save. I wouldn't say your plant is going to die from flushing it just seems a little drastic before you chop to flush. Has anyone ever had a plant that was just shit throughout the grow? I once had a plant always was getting burnt and just wasn't that great (since Im small scale I didn't weed out) anyways i thought this shit was gonna suck which it did once it was chopped. I took one hit after it dried and it was sooo harsh and crackly. I threw it in some curing jars for the hell of it and forgot about em. 6mo later or so when I was out i went to the backup jar of this shit. OMG when I opened it holy fuck it smelled so much bettter than before, granite it wasn't my best quality shit but it definatly improved SO MUCh. how come? and why is this always ruled out as maybe the cause for a taste difference? but everytime it's suggested its just shot down with an instant, NO I did it right blah blah. It's just everyone I know who has REALLY done it has reached the position where Im at.
Ok when I don't flush my weed I have chemicals in my buds. But how come I don't have shitty tasting nugs? why do they burn smooth? and how come whenever I administer blind taste tests to others no one can tell which is or isn't? Im keeping a very open mind here and not counting out that flushing possible has it's uses (minus saving a plant from problems) but I just wonder why My end results after a good dry and cure are the same as a plant that was flushed with a good dry and cure? and if there is no difference then I guess it doesn't matter if you do or don't. I just don't see it being benificial to starve something or in other words make it feed off of itself.
SirLancelot
Active Member
I've only done the test 3 times 9 plants total. I don't feel this is enough conclusive evidence to say their was more weight on flushed than not flushed or vis versa. I will say that sometimes they were sometimes they weren't. I don't image doing a flush in the last week or two could cause any sort of effect on yield. Maybe if it's still swelling and growing as a nug and it doesn't have any nutrients left it would be stunted but I haven't done this enough nor with strict variables to answer that. My guess is no one can
BlazedMonkey
Well-Known Member
Lol poor OP wanted a thread for people who dont flush and now its turned into another Flushing Vs. Not Flushing debate. Lawl.
Moderation; i think both parties have good points and i personally would taper off my nutes before harvest.
I bet cannabis cup growers all flush even if they get lower yields because they could care less if they get 3.5g per plant because if the get the best dank in the world its all they need. I would go for a middle road. I dont need to overnute to push yields but im not obsessed to hurt yields for the flush.
Moderation; i think both parties have good points and i personally would taper off my nutes before harvest.
I bet cannabis cup growers all flush even if they get lower yields because they could care less if they get 3.5g per plant because if the get the best dank in the world its all they need. I would go for a middle road. I dont need to overnute to push yields but im not obsessed to hurt yields for the flush.
SirLancelot
Active Member
HAHA nah it's all good I got what I was askin for some luv from the peeps who don't flush and some actually valid points from the peeps who do. I agree, about the cannibus cup winners all flushing not because of yields or even any other factor than the fact its so instilled in everyones mind that unflushed weed is bad they don't want to take the chance of not getting entered in for not flushing even if they have the best nugs ya know? like just to cover their asses and make the customers happy even if customers don't really know what they want. Customers are always right!!
I appreaciate all the answers from everyone and the positive conversations!
Joedank
Well-Known Member
Large scale ag companies and small farms alike worry about putting enough ferts on there plants cyz its pricey .weed is special in that people with disposeable income grow it and fert the shit out of it... Now if you have figured out that 900pmm and below reduces chances for nute loading...Congrats ... Leaching/flushing is for those of us that want perfect product each and every time...
Now in case your wondering... a cell of a plant has a part that hold nutes/ minerals whatever. When you leach the soil you ask the plant to burn those nutes thus risking a fade or" senencece " witch is natural as the plant should not be full of life at death as that would show it is not properly ready for choppin...
I DO GROW acres of assorted crops and strawberries in particular can taste of ferts if you overdo it...
Now in case your wondering... a cell of a plant has a part that hold nutes/ minerals whatever. When you leach the soil you ask the plant to burn those nutes thus risking a fade or" senencece " witch is natural as the plant should not be full of life at death as that would show it is not properly ready for choppin...
I DO GROW acres of assorted crops and strawberries in particular can taste of ferts if you overdo it...
laserbrn
Well-Known Member
I missed this thread somehow. I love this post, it's my favorit. Every cannabnis cup entry for the past 10 years has been flushed.... Flush your hydro for 7 days....How many cannabis cup entries have been grown in hdyro?
Brick Top
New Member
Description of Harvest Flush:
Pre harvest flushing is a controversial topic. Flushing is supposed to improve taste of the final bud by either giving only pure water, clearing solutions or extensive flushing for the last 7-14 days of flowering. While many growers claim a positive effect, others deny any positive influence or even suggest reduced yield and quality.
The theory of pre harvest flushing is to remove nutrients from the grow medium/root zone. A lack of nutrients creates a deficiency, forcing the plant to translocate and use up its internal nutrient compounds.
Nutrient fundamentals and uptake:
The nutrient uptake process is explained in this faq.
A good read about plant nutrition can be found here.
Until recently it was common thought that all nutrients are absorbed by plant roots as ions of mineral elements. However in newer studies more and more evidence emerged that additionally plant roots are capable of taking up complex organic molecules like amino acids directly thus bypassing the mineralization process.
The major nutrient uptake processes are:
1) Active transport mechanism into root hairs (the plant has to put energy in it, ATP driven) which is selective to some degree. This is one way the plant (being immobile) can adjust to the environment.
2) Passive transport (diffusion) through symplast to endodermis.
chemical ferted plants need to be flushed should be taken with a grain of salt. Organic and synthetic ferted plants take up mineral ions alike, probably to a different degree though. Many influences play key roles in the taste and flavor of the final bud, like the nutrition balance and strength throughout the entire life cycle of the plant, the drying and curing process and other environmental conditions.
3) Active transport mechanism of organic molecules into root hairs via endocytosis.
Here is a simplified overview of nutrient functions:
Nitrogen is needed to build chlorophyll, amino acids, and proteins. Phosphorus is necessary for photosynthesis and other growth processes. Potassium is utilized to form sugar and starch and to activate enzymes. Magnesium also plays a role in activating enzymes and is part of chlorophyll. Calcium is used during cell growth and division and is part of the cell wall. Sulfur is part of amino acids and proteins.
Plants also require trace elements, which include boron, chlorine, copper, iron, manganese, sodium, zinc, molybdenum, nickel, cobalt, and silicon.
Copper, iron, and manganese are used in photosynthesis. Molybdenum, nickel, and cobalt are necessary for the movement of nitrogen in the plant. Boron is important for reproduction, while chlorine stimulates root growth and development. Sodium benefits the movement of water within the plant and zinc is needed for enzymes and used in auxins (organic plant hormones). Finally, silicon helps to build tough cell walls for better heat and drought tolerance.
You can get an idea from this how closely all the essential elements are involved in the many metabolic processes within the plant, often relying on each other.
Nutrient movement and mobility inside the plant:
Besides endocytosis, there are two major pathways inside the plant, the xylem and the phloem. When water and minerals are absorbed by plant roots, these substances must be transported up to the plant's stems and leaves for photosynthesis and further metabolic processes. This upward transport happens in the xylem. While the xylem is able to transport organic compounds, the phloem is much more adapted to do so.
The organic compounds thus originating in the leaves have to be moved throughout the plant, upwards and downwards, to where they are needed. This transport happens in the phloem. Compounds that are moving through the phloem are mostly:
Sugars as sugary saps, organic nitrogen compounds (amino acids and amides, ureides and legumes), hormones and proteins.
Not all nutrient compounds are moveable within the plant.
1) N, P, K, Mg and S are considered mobile: they can move up and down the plant in both xylem and phloem.
Deficiency appears on old leaves first.
2) Ca, Fe, Zn, Mo, B, Cu, Mn are considered immobile: they only move up the plant in the xylem.
Deficiency appears on new leaves first.
Storage organelles:
Salts and organic metabolites can be stored in storage organelles. The most important storage organelle is the vacuole, which can contribute up to 90% of the cell volume. The majority of compounds found in the vacuole are sugars, polysaccharides, organic acids and proteins though.
Translocation:
Now that the basics are explained, we can take a look at the translocation process. It should be already clear that only mobile elements can be translocated through the phloem. Immobile elements cant be translocated and are not more available to the plant for further metabolic processes and new plant growth.
Since flushing (in theory) induces a nutrient deficiency in the rootzone, the translocation process aids in the plants survival. Translocation is transportation of assimilates through the phloem from source (a net exporter of assimilate) to sink (a net importer of assimilate). Sources are mostly mature fan leaves and sinks are mostly apical meristems, lateral meristem, fruit, seed and developing leaves etc.
You can see this by the yellowing and later dying of the mature fan leaves from the second day on after flushing started. Developing leaves, bud leaves and calyxes dont serve as sources, they are sinks. Changes in those plant parts are due to the deficient immobile elements which start to indicate on new growth first.
Unfortunately, several metabolic processes are unable to take place anymore since other elements needed are no longer available (the immobile ones). This includes processes where nitrogen and phosphorus, which have likely the most impact on taste, are involved.
For example nitrogen: usually plants use nitrogen to form plant proteins. Enzyme systems rapidly reduce nitrate-N (NO3-) to compounds that are used to build amino-nitrogen which is the basis for amino acids. Amino acids are building blocks for proteins, most of them are plant enzymes responsible for all the chemical changes important for plant growth.
Sulfur and calcium among others have major roles in production and activating of proteins, thereby decreasing nitrate within the plant. Excess nitrate within the plant may result from unbalanced nutrition rather than an excess of nitrogen.
Summary:
Preharvest flushing puts the plant(s) under serious stress. The plant has to deal with nutrient deficiencies in a very important part of its cycle. Strong changes in the amount of dissolved substances in the root-zone stress the roots, possibly to the point of direct physical damage to them. Many immobile elements are no more available for further metabolic processes. We are losing the fan leaves and damage will show likely on new growth as well.
The grower should react in an educated way to the plant needs. Excessive, deficient or unbalanced levels should be avoided regardless the nutrient source. Nutrient levels should be gradually adjusted to the lesser needs in later flowering. Stress factors should be limited as far as possible. If that is accomplished throughout the entire life cycle, there shouldnt be any excessive nutrient compounds in the plants tissue. It doesnt sound likely to the author that you can correct growing errors (significant lower mobile nutrient compound levels) with pre-harvest flushing.
Drying and curing (when done right) on the other hand have proved (In many studies) to have a major impact on taste and flavor, by breaking down chlorophyll and converting starches into sugars. Most attributes blamed on unflushed buds may be the result of unbalanced nutrition and/or overfert and unproper drying/curing.
Pre harvest flushing is a controversial topic. Flushing is supposed to improve taste of the final bud by either giving only pure water, clearing solutions or extensive flushing for the last 7-14 days of flowering. While many growers claim a positive effect, others deny any positive influence or even suggest reduced yield and quality.
The theory of pre harvest flushing is to remove nutrients from the grow medium/root zone. A lack of nutrients creates a deficiency, forcing the plant to translocate and use up its internal nutrient compounds.
Nutrient fundamentals and uptake:
The nutrient uptake process is explained in this faq.
A good read about plant nutrition can be found here.
Until recently it was common thought that all nutrients are absorbed by plant roots as ions of mineral elements. However in newer studies more and more evidence emerged that additionally plant roots are capable of taking up complex organic molecules like amino acids directly thus bypassing the mineralization process.
The major nutrient uptake processes are:
1) Active transport mechanism into root hairs (the plant has to put energy in it, ATP driven) which is selective to some degree. This is one way the plant (being immobile) can adjust to the environment.
2) Passive transport (diffusion) through symplast to endodermis.
chemical ferted plants need to be flushed should be taken with a grain of salt. Organic and synthetic ferted plants take up mineral ions alike, probably to a different degree though. Many influences play key roles in the taste and flavor of the final bud, like the nutrition balance and strength throughout the entire life cycle of the plant, the drying and curing process and other environmental conditions.
3) Active transport mechanism of organic molecules into root hairs via endocytosis.
Here is a simplified overview of nutrient functions:
Nitrogen is needed to build chlorophyll, amino acids, and proteins. Phosphorus is necessary for photosynthesis and other growth processes. Potassium is utilized to form sugar and starch and to activate enzymes. Magnesium also plays a role in activating enzymes and is part of chlorophyll. Calcium is used during cell growth and division and is part of the cell wall. Sulfur is part of amino acids and proteins.
Plants also require trace elements, which include boron, chlorine, copper, iron, manganese, sodium, zinc, molybdenum, nickel, cobalt, and silicon.
Copper, iron, and manganese are used in photosynthesis. Molybdenum, nickel, and cobalt are necessary for the movement of nitrogen in the plant. Boron is important for reproduction, while chlorine stimulates root growth and development. Sodium benefits the movement of water within the plant and zinc is needed for enzymes and used in auxins (organic plant hormones). Finally, silicon helps to build tough cell walls for better heat and drought tolerance.
You can get an idea from this how closely all the essential elements are involved in the many metabolic processes within the plant, often relying on each other.
Nutrient movement and mobility inside the plant:
Besides endocytosis, there are two major pathways inside the plant, the xylem and the phloem. When water and minerals are absorbed by plant roots, these substances must be transported up to the plant's stems and leaves for photosynthesis and further metabolic processes. This upward transport happens in the xylem. While the xylem is able to transport organic compounds, the phloem is much more adapted to do so.
The organic compounds thus originating in the leaves have to be moved throughout the plant, upwards and downwards, to where they are needed. This transport happens in the phloem. Compounds that are moving through the phloem are mostly:
Sugars as sugary saps, organic nitrogen compounds (amino acids and amides, ureides and legumes), hormones and proteins.
Not all nutrient compounds are moveable within the plant.
1) N, P, K, Mg and S are considered mobile: they can move up and down the plant in both xylem and phloem.
Deficiency appears on old leaves first.
2) Ca, Fe, Zn, Mo, B, Cu, Mn are considered immobile: they only move up the plant in the xylem.
Deficiency appears on new leaves first.
Storage organelles:
Salts and organic metabolites can be stored in storage organelles. The most important storage organelle is the vacuole, which can contribute up to 90% of the cell volume. The majority of compounds found in the vacuole are sugars, polysaccharides, organic acids and proteins though.
Translocation:
Now that the basics are explained, we can take a look at the translocation process. It should be already clear that only mobile elements can be translocated through the phloem. Immobile elements cant be translocated and are not more available to the plant for further metabolic processes and new plant growth.
Since flushing (in theory) induces a nutrient deficiency in the rootzone, the translocation process aids in the plants survival. Translocation is transportation of assimilates through the phloem from source (a net exporter of assimilate) to sink (a net importer of assimilate). Sources are mostly mature fan leaves and sinks are mostly apical meristems, lateral meristem, fruit, seed and developing leaves etc.
You can see this by the yellowing and later dying of the mature fan leaves from the second day on after flushing started. Developing leaves, bud leaves and calyxes dont serve as sources, they are sinks. Changes in those plant parts are due to the deficient immobile elements which start to indicate on new growth first.
Unfortunately, several metabolic processes are unable to take place anymore since other elements needed are no longer available (the immobile ones). This includes processes where nitrogen and phosphorus, which have likely the most impact on taste, are involved.
For example nitrogen: usually plants use nitrogen to form plant proteins. Enzyme systems rapidly reduce nitrate-N (NO3-) to compounds that are used to build amino-nitrogen which is the basis for amino acids. Amino acids are building blocks for proteins, most of them are plant enzymes responsible for all the chemical changes important for plant growth.
Sulfur and calcium among others have major roles in production and activating of proteins, thereby decreasing nitrate within the plant. Excess nitrate within the plant may result from unbalanced nutrition rather than an excess of nitrogen.
Summary:
Preharvest flushing puts the plant(s) under serious stress. The plant has to deal with nutrient deficiencies in a very important part of its cycle. Strong changes in the amount of dissolved substances in the root-zone stress the roots, possibly to the point of direct physical damage to them. Many immobile elements are no more available for further metabolic processes. We are losing the fan leaves and damage will show likely on new growth as well.
The grower should react in an educated way to the plant needs. Excessive, deficient or unbalanced levels should be avoided regardless the nutrient source. Nutrient levels should be gradually adjusted to the lesser needs in later flowering. Stress factors should be limited as far as possible. If that is accomplished throughout the entire life cycle, there shouldnt be any excessive nutrient compounds in the plants tissue. It doesnt sound likely to the author that you can correct growing errors (significant lower mobile nutrient compound levels) with pre-harvest flushing.
Drying and curing (when done right) on the other hand have proved (In many studies) to have a major impact on taste and flavor, by breaking down chlorophyll and converting starches into sugars. Most attributes blamed on unflushed buds may be the result of unbalanced nutrition and/or overfert and unproper drying/curing.
greenberg138
Member
your shit sparkles? lol dang thats blingin!!!!!!!
SirLancelot
Active Member
alright! thats what Im talking about, thanks for the info.
Harrekin
Well-Known Member
If only Riddlem3 knew what he'd started, lol.
kush groove
Active Member
i used to flush because everyone told me to....now i dont and my buds get much fatter all the way through flowering......if your not using harsh chemicals, there is no need to flush.........my buds smell great, smoke great, vape wonderfully and taste amazing.....and on top of that i have huge buds without wasting a shitload of cash on strange super products....my noob days are over.....bat guano and seaweed is all i use
4 growing myths we all fell victim to:
1. flushing before harvest (some cases)......needed when using harsh chemicals late in flowering; stops growth of new flowers
2. 56-60 day harvest (some cases).......i let some of my plants go past 80 days and they only got fatter and fatter; wouldnt be possible if plants were flushed from week 6 or 7
3. curing bud......not nearly a necessity, much more of a fine art that very few have mastered
4. additives......money, money, money; wasted loads of cash on plant foods and magic tricks, not realizing genetics and common sense was the most important
we all learned a lot from reading books and the internet, but trial and error speaks for itself
4 growing myths we all fell victim to:
1. flushing before harvest (some cases)......needed when using harsh chemicals late in flowering; stops growth of new flowers
2. 56-60 day harvest (some cases).......i let some of my plants go past 80 days and they only got fatter and fatter; wouldnt be possible if plants were flushed from week 6 or 7
3. curing bud......not nearly a necessity, much more of a fine art that very few have mastered
4. additives......money, money, money; wasted loads of cash on plant foods and magic tricks, not realizing genetics and common sense was the most important
we all learned a lot from reading books and the internet, but trial and error speaks for itself
Gastanker
Well-Known Member
Please stop comparing MJ to row crops. In row crops you apply fertilizer once or twice - after this you irrigate, water, and it rains which means throughout the year the nutrients are being used by the plants and being leeched out of the soil. They start out with lots of nutrients and then the nutes are tapered off at the end...just like flushing. At the end of the year for row crops your nutrients are for the most part depleted or you put way too much (which generally gets you into a ton of trouble with the army corps).
Growing marijuana you add nutrients every other watering up until harvest...little different. So you're growing in soil with nutrient levels 10x that of regular farmers. Your soil has a CEC (this is how much nutrients can bind to it) as well as having water retention. The water the soil hold has dissolved nutrients in it. If you do not taper down your nutrients at the end of your grow (in which case flushing isn't necessary) then you have more nutrients than necessary. If you pour water through your soil you will "flush" out the water born nutrients. You are essentially flushing out the water soil solution - nothing else.
So you harm your plants by water logging them but you aren't starving them - remember that your soil has a CEC which means that there is still nutrients stuck to the soil - these nutrients your plant can still use.
Why get rid of extra nutrients? One reason is the salts - most chemical nutrients are salts. You've been adding these salts in high measures every other watering - they accumulate. You know ppm? ec? Well that's a measure of the salts in your water. Electro conductivity measure the difference in how electricity passes through saline solution versus plain water... Does salinity effect crops? Yes... But don't take my word for it, here a University paper - http://www.springerlink.com/content/u05616347774w440/
I have to run but I'll brush up on plant mobile and plant immobile nutrients and minerals when I get back. Some nutrients/minerals are fixed in place in the plant - others can move after being fixed in place. This means that the plant has plenty of extra resources, by letting it mobilize and utilize the excess material into something smokeable, say a fuller calyx or more trichs, you get a better smoke than just burning and inhaling the mineral/nutrient in whatever other state it happens to be in (likely tied up as a chloroplast).
Growing marijuana you add nutrients every other watering up until harvest...little different. So you're growing in soil with nutrient levels 10x that of regular farmers. Your soil has a CEC (this is how much nutrients can bind to it) as well as having water retention. The water the soil hold has dissolved nutrients in it. If you do not taper down your nutrients at the end of your grow (in which case flushing isn't necessary) then you have more nutrients than necessary. If you pour water through your soil you will "flush" out the water born nutrients. You are essentially flushing out the water soil solution - nothing else.
So you harm your plants by water logging them but you aren't starving them - remember that your soil has a CEC which means that there is still nutrients stuck to the soil - these nutrients your plant can still use.
Why get rid of extra nutrients? One reason is the salts - most chemical nutrients are salts. You've been adding these salts in high measures every other watering - they accumulate. You know ppm? ec? Well that's a measure of the salts in your water. Electro conductivity measure the difference in how electricity passes through saline solution versus plain water... Does salinity effect crops? Yes... But don't take my word for it, here a University paper - http://www.springerlink.com/content/u05616347774w440/
I have to run but I'll brush up on plant mobile and plant immobile nutrients and minerals when I get back. Some nutrients/minerals are fixed in place in the plant - others can move after being fixed in place. This means that the plant has plenty of extra resources, by letting it mobilize and utilize the excess material into something smokeable, say a fuller calyx or more trichs, you get a better smoke than just burning and inhaling the mineral/nutrient in whatever other state it happens to be in (likely tied up as a chloroplast).
k0ijn
Scientia Cannabis
Seems like these topics never die.
If we can at least keep it factual and informational instead of turning it into a poo throwing fight.
I have had to delete some posts, name calling, harassment etc will not be tolerated.
Please just keep it an informational and grown up discussion.
If we can at least keep it factual and informational instead of turning it into a poo throwing fight.
I have had to delete some posts, name calling, harassment etc will not be tolerated.
Please just keep it an informational and grown up discussion.
SirLancelot
Active Member
Huh? have you now? how does that work?
SirLancelot
Active Member
nice,
Im not arguing the fact of nutrients inside the plants moving around I understand this concept. Thanks for the link but this is something I already knew. But what I don't know how are chemicals stored in the buds? Yes your right not to compare row crops with MJ because of the nute difference didn't look at it like that. But once the roots break down the nutrients in the soil for the plant to uptake and it's in the plant why would you want to rinse it out? and how could that even be possible if the nutes are stored in cells and stuff. the water enters these cells and just cleanses them out? So if a plant grows in a tropical area where it rains all the time then I guess that plant woud suffer from lack of nutrients correct? since the water would constantly be washing the nutrients out of the plant. I just can't grasp how you can rinse the plant clean from "chemicals"
ok for the record I TOTALLY agree flushing is neccessary for those that dump and dump shit into your soil not because of the taste but because of how bad it is for the roots and plant in general. causing many many problems. I have flushed before when I've used too much SS in a pot my plant kept getting burnt worse and worse so I ran lots of water through it and it eventually evened out but how does that wash out what's in the plant?
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