super soil not yielding well, not hot enough?

Wetdog

Well-Known Member
Bingo! :dunce:

Kind of hard to replicate a recipe when you can't get the main fucking ingredient genius.
A quote from Sub himself "It's just fucking dirt":leaf:

You are seriously overthinking the 'base soil' thing. Any of these soils are mostly peat moss (65-85%), some perlite and various amendments.

Nothing that you can't duplicate yourself. Besides alfalfa meal or pellets, kelp meal and earthworm castings, the 3 *must haves*, everything else can be substituted with locally obtained amendments.

For example, I don't use guanos. Cost too much to ship. Alfalfa meal, soybean meal, blood meal, all make excellent sources of N and I can get them locally. Same with P sources. Bone meal and/or soft rock phosphate work just fine and no shipping.

IDK if you have Espoma up there, but the Gala Green sounds similar. The Espoma line is great if you don't have the $$$$ to get a bunch of amendments. It's all blended up and you can add some to your initial mix and then top dress with some every month or so. Cheap, easy and very high quality ingredients. 100% organic.

Quit stressing over the mix.

Wet
 

Buggins

Active Member
Also a direct quote from Sub...

"I always start with at least 6-8 large bags of high quality organic soil. The selection of your base soil is very important, so don't cut corners here."

I'm just trying to do things right. Why is everyone giving me such a hard time about this?

If you don't think the base soil is a big deal, then fine. But it's important to me to get this right, or as close as I possibly can with what I have access to. I don't have the luxury of trial and error.

When I get really sick, I don't have the ability to be monitoring the plants and correcting deficiencies as they crop up and such, so I need to use a soil mix that is a proven winner that I can just let be.

If I start making changes, then I'm no longer using Sub's formula, and the end result will be unknown. Maybe it would turn out fine, maybe not. Maybe my yields will suffer, maybe not. Sub's recipe is great because we know what to expect, and it is low maintenance.

I appreciate everyone's input, I really do. But if all you have to say is 'stop worrying about the base soil', save your breath. It's important to me to get it right, and that is that.

If you want to help me sort this out, then I appreciate any advice and help you could offer. If not, that's fine to, but keep it to yourself.

Thanks
 

cannatricks

Well-Known Member
IMHO... I have been organic gardening for most of my life, starting with my father and his 3 crappy grape vines we never got more then 5 grapes off of. Not because they didn't produce grapes, but that every organism within a mile would come and destroy the grapes before they were even ripe. We experimented with miracle grow, and commercial nutrients, but in the end organics is the way to go if you want to be sustainable.

I am currently trying my own concoction of Subcools Super Soil, along side of my own compost tea and soil mix, and there are some things to keep in mind when talking about subcool and his "plant it, leave it" approach. Subcool has grown 1000's of plants, with dozens of batches of soil. His room is decked with the greatest lights, add Co2 and after the amount of time he has his rooms. He is "dialed in" The expectation that you can walk in, take a plant you've never grown, somehow know how many nutrients the specific phenotype, of the specific genotype needs for an entire life cycle is asinine. If you want something easy use a chemical nutrient line. That is the easiest.

Organics are not easier. It takes time and research to understand how organics even work. In an organic system you are feeding a microherd (batceria and fungus) that are breaking down the slow nutrients you put in your soil. You cannot add raw organic nutrients and expect the plant to be able to take them in immediately. In fact that is why we use tea's. This is another way to feed the microherd (with oxygen from an airstone) to break down all of our nutrients so that the plant can uptake them much more quickly when we water. If you kill your microherd (large amounts of chlorine/heavy metals/chemical nutrients/etc.) then none of the nutrients in your soil will be broken down, and the plant will have nothing to eat, even though your soil is rich in organic ingredients. This goes for the storage of the supersoil (for the first month or so) it needs to be somewhat warm, damp and have some bacteria and fungus in it to break down your nutrients. Looking at your soil list I don't see any bacteria rich ingrediants. I would recommend getting a replacing some of your perlite with mushroom compost, and getting a handful of nice fresh cowshit to add to your mix. This will get the microherd really rocking so that the month that your soil is sitting it is really "cooking"

The difficulty comes when you do kill a microherd (or harm it badly). There are no visual signs, it could take days or a week before your plant runs out of the nutrients that your microherd broke down before the kill off. Then you go "ooooo crap!" start feeding in strong compost tea and maybe top dress with some mushroom compost. Then sit and wait another week to watch it turn around.

I would recommend doing quite a bit of research on how organic soil organisms live. Then you can understand why Subcools soil should work. I'm not trying to be condescending or anything of the sort, just making the point that you need a good understanding of WHY the soil works, before you make organic soil and expect it to work.

I really recommend organics, you will never get the same yields as chemicals, but you will be able to reuse your soil (my used old super soil, is my new base mix!) not worry about overfertilization (very hard with organics) not worry about PHing your water (to a point...) or flushing nasty chemicals out of your soil.

I grow organic because I love the earth. I grow organic because I love the taste and smell. I grow organic because I don't ever worry about a missed spray of chemicals onto a bud. But, I sure as hell never grew organic because it was easier.
 

Buggins

Active Member
IMHO... I have been organic gardening for most of my life, starting with my father and his 3 crappy grape vines we never got more then 5 grapes off of. Not because they didn't produce grapes, but that every organism within a mile would come and destroy the grapes before they were even ripe. We experimented with miracle grow, and commercial nutrients, but in the end organics is the way to go if you want to be sustainable.

I am currently trying my own concoction of Subcools Super Soil, along side of my own compost tea and soil mix, and there are some things to keep in mind when talking about subcool and his "plant it, leave it" approach. Subcool has grown 1000's of plants, with dozens of batches of soil. His room is decked with the greatest lights, add Co2 and after the amount of time he has his rooms. He is "dialed in" The expectation that you can walk in, take a plant you've never grown, somehow know how many nutrients the specific phenotype, of the specific genotype needs for an entire life cycle is asinine. If you want something easy use a chemical nutrient line. That is the easiest.

Organics are not easier. It takes time and research to understand how organics even work. In an organic system you are feeding a microherd (batceria and fungus) that are breaking down the slow nutrients you put in your soil. You cannot add raw organic nutrients and expect the plant to be able to take them in immediately. In fact that is why we use tea's. This is another way to feed the microherd (with oxygen from an airstone) to break down all of our nutrients so that the plant can uptake them much more quickly when we water. If you kill your microherd (large amounts of chlorine/heavy metals/chemical nutrients/etc.) then none of the nutrients in your soil will be broken down, and the plant will have nothing to eat, even though your soil is rich in organic ingredients. This goes for the storage of the supersoil (for the first month or so) it needs to be somewhat warm, damp and have some bacteria and fungus in it to break down your nutrients. Looking at your soil list I don't see any bacteria rich ingrediants. I would recommend getting a replacing some of your perlite with mushroom compost, and getting a handful of nice fresh cowshit to add to your mix. This will get the microherd really rocking so that the month that your soil is sitting it is really "cooking"

The difficulty comes when you do kill a microherd (or harm it badly). There are no visual signs, it could take days or a week before your plant runs out of the nutrients that your microherd broke down before the kill off. Then you go "ooooo crap!" start feeding in strong compost tea and maybe top dress with some mushroom compost. Then sit and wait another week to watch it turn around.

I would recommend doing quite a bit of research on how organic soil organisms live. Then you can understand why Subcools soil should work. I'm not trying to be condescending or anything of the sort, just making the point that you need a good understanding of WHY the soil works, before you make organic soil and expect it to work.

I really recommend organics, you will never get the same yields as chemicals, but you will be able to reuse your soil (my used old super soil, is my new base mix!) not worry about overfertilization (very hard with organics) not worry about PHing your water (to a point...) or flushing nasty chemicals out of your soil.

I grow organic because I love the earth. I grow organic because I love the taste and smell. I grow organic because I don't ever worry about a missed spray of chemicals onto a bud. But, I sure as hell never grew organic because it was easier.
I appreciate you taking the time to send such a detailed response. Lots of great info in there. I have a lot more work to do with learning about organics, but I am making improvements every day.

Just wanted to thank everyone who has contributed in a meaningful way to this discussion. I appreciate all the advice and opinions. I will be a better grower because of you folks, and I think the final quality of my medicine will be greatly improved over my old results using chemical fertilizers.

My very best to all of you and merry christmas.

Bug
 

Kronron

Member
I believe sub says if you use his mix in anything under 7gal buckets it will run out of nutes, I think that and the lack of a good amended base soil is the main problem. And azomite is the shit, def use it. With 20 gallons of soil I would use like 5 to 10 pounds of ew castings.
If you want to amend the pro mix or sunshine I would get some fox farms jump start, it comes in a black bag and has a npk of 3-4-3 or 5-5-5, and its full of the micros you want and humic and fulvic, ew castings and, some mexican guano. Im using subcools recipe in 10 gall pots and havr not had organic budsthos big ever and my purple strains are almost a blackish purple and crazy red hairs. Also even if sub says water only I still brew and use microb teas every other watering in flower and once a week in veg.
 

Buggins

Active Member
I believe sub says if you use his mix in anything under 7gal buckets it will run out of nutes, I think that and the lack of a good amended base soil is the main problem. And azomite is the shit, def use it. With 20 gallons of soil I would use like 5 to 10 pounds of ew castings.
If you want to amend the pro mix or sunshine I would get some fox farms jump start, it comes in a black bag and has a npk of 3-4-3 or 5-5-5, and its full of the micros you want and humic and fulvic, ew castings and, some mexican guano. Im using subcools recipe in 10 gall pots and havr not had organic budsthos big ever and my purple strains are almost a blackish purple and crazy red hairs. Also even if sub says water only I still brew and use microb teas every other watering in flower and once a week in veg.
Thanks, I was not aware that sub said that about 7 gallon pots, makes me think I will have to top-dress a couple times throughout flowering.

Here is a product I have and it is 100% organic - vegitative blend. Sounds similar to the Jump Start, NPK is 5-2-2

http://goo.gl/ZEw30

What do you think? Could I make a nice base soil using just this stuff, sunshine mix, and a little extra lime, perlite, and castings?
 

Icemud

Well-Known Member
Add some Humic Acid to your Tea's....it helps nutrient uptake by chelation as well as opens the PH availability threshold...

Wouldn't hurt to pick up some Myco's..
 

Buggins

Active Member
Ok, I will do this right away.

I want to order some Humic Acid, Fulvic Acid, Azomite, and Mycos'.

Looking around on ebay, there seems to be a few sources for all of the above.

However, I'm not exactly sure what I'm looking for, so would you kindly be able to point me in the right direction?

I have particular trouble with the Mycos, as I know very little about them. What product is recommended?

This is a store on ebay that carries the ingredients, so maybe you could have a peak and see if this is what I'm looking for.

http://stores.ebay.ca/theorganicstore

Thanks for any help you can offer.
 

Icemud

Well-Known Member
For the Mycos, I use Mycos maximum by Humboldt Nutrients..... seems to have the most different species out of all the mycos mixes... but there are many other brands...this is the one I use...

For Humic acid I currently use advanced nutrients H2 but also have used Europonics brand too....really humic acid is humic acid..

For Fulvic acid, the only pure fulvic I found was F1 by advanced nutrients...there may be others as well but this one seems to work...
 

Kronron

Member
Icemud is right on the money with the humic and fulvic acid keeping the nutrients availible even in adverse ph conditions!I use same brand inmy teIMAG0241.jpgIMAG0044.jpgIMAG0049.jpgas.For the azomite and the micros go to aurora.com. Its the same people who make roots organics stuff here in Oregon. You can order online and there prices are decent.I use there oregonism micros and some called great white, i dont remember who make it though. Ill post before and after pics on subs soil here.. Ill find some links and post for ya. For the finish of this crop I would top dress with Super Soil, and brew them some microb teas if you cant find micros use worm castings they are full of microbs . You can add like a cup of ewc to a gallon of water and 2tablespoons of organic blacksrap mollasses put an airstone in there and bubble for 24 to 48 hrs and feed with that. You could add some phos guano if you want too wont hirt anything
 

Buggins

Active Member
So, what is your yield anyway?
Pulled a skunk #1 that was vegged for 2 months under 400watt mh and then under 1000 watt hps for 9 weeks.

Dried and cured 36 miserable grams.

5 gallon pot, 4 ft tall (from soil level) at 9 weeks.
 

Kronron

Member
I usually pull 3 oz per plant with the Indica strain pictured but I have a Sour D that will pull 4- 4.5 oz but I always veg my sativas longer. I love the bush..lol .I veg with 400watt mh for 2 momths and flower with 2 400watt hps in a 6x6 closet. I use 10 gal totes just switched to 15 smart pots so will see the diff on that I hope.. Usually have a finish height of 3 to 3 1/2 ft.
 

Thebulldog

New Member
Hey man I'm currently running A brand of soilless by"Gaia Green" Organics. I'm using their "living soil" blend cut with Promix HP as my base on my plushberry. No amendments. Other than a little lime and the difference between my Ktrain that's in straight Promix is definitely noticeable. Plushberry has been problem free where my K has given me calcium, phosphorous, and mag deficiencies at different times. Gaia green is based in Grand Forks and they have a distributor in Surrey. If you can get a hold of it, it should take care of your base soil Issues and round off your recipe. Good luck in your endeavors man and don't let the fucking haters get at ya. Peace
Hello from the Great White North of K/W, I have a bag of Gaia living soil on order , I also order Glacial Rock Dust, Power bloom 284 and All purpose 444. You have me curious as to why you cut the living soil with promix, could you see any problem with growing a seed in only Living soil ? Or how about taking a clone into the uncut Living soil ? Have a good 1, Bulldog
 

SpicySativa

Well-Known Member
I gotta admit I didn't read this whole thread, so I may be repeating what others have said. Either way, here are my suggestions:

- More worm castings. Make them about 25-33% (1/4 to 1/3) of your finished soil.

- Instead of purchasing questionable "generic" organic soil, simply make your own by combining equal parts worm castings, peat moss, and perlite. Add your dry amendments to this mix at concentrations similar to those described in the LC's mix or Subcool's recipes.

- Bigger pots. You grow 4-5 foot tall plants in 5-gal pots under 1000 watts. I grow 2.5 to 3-foot tall, 2-foot wide bushes in 10-gal pots under 600 watts (4 plants per cycle). Shorter, wider plants generally produce better than taller, skinnier plants because they make better use of the available light. Pot size is a very important factor when it comes to growing organically with "super soils". I won't flower in less than 7 gallons.

- Read this, and learn about how to properly brew a compost tea (3 days of brewing is generally too long, and true compost teas should be used full strength).
http://www.nofanj.org/LiteratureRetrieve.aspx?ID=104151

Do these things and I think you will be pleased.
 
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