14x1750=1750 WTF, Small Cfl Array, Input Appreciated

[Tanuvan]

Yep, I indicated that in the thread here ...https://www.rollitup.org/cfl-growing/57813-advantage-v-disadvantage-cfl-s-9.html
The last few pages of that link...the beginning was a bunch of bickering.

The lighting flux (f) is the power (energy per one unit of time) of the lighting energy which is measured according to its visual effect (it is equivalent to one candle per each steradian). That is, it indicates the quantity of light which is emitted in a unit of time in an specific direction (spatial distribution of the light which is emitted by the source).

Its unit is the lumen (lm).

683 lumens are the equivalent of one watt, emitted to 555 nm wavelength, which is the equivalent of the highest sensitivity of the human eye.

It is subjective...which is why I can't understand why people start making such a big deal over whether or not the Lumens add. Without doing all the math and physics...at the end of the day...something is happening when you add more CFL's because the plant grows more vigorously. And that is really all that matters.

 

[Maccabee]

And that is really all that matters.

I think that's the rub, too. I just wish I knew why for sure, so I could try to optimize. Oh well, I suppose the practical solution there is experimentation.

 

[Tanuvan]

It would take an experiment such as what GK has done, and increase the number of CFL's each grow until yields were no longer possible. At least then, we could come up with a sort of max yield formula. The same could be done for HPS.

These are the things that interest me...not whether the lumens are adding. I will say that at least speculating that they add...does at least give a grower the ability to gauge yields per given CFL.

From what I have seen in scrog/lst setups...I can say that on avg. for every 4K lumens of CFL close to the plant...the yield is about 1 ounce.

 

[Maccabee]

From what I have seen in scrog/lst setups...I can say that on avg. for every 4K lumens of CFL close to the plant...the yield is about 1 ounce.

Up to the productive limits of the plant, of course.

OK, that's a good rule of thumb. I'll shoot for that as optimal and see how close I get.

 

[Garden Knowm]

OH shit!!!

you all are pretty bad ass..

the conversation has gone way over my head.... I do like the diagrams


WHAT is the official conclusion?

iloveyou

 

[Tanuvan]

OH shit!!!

you all are pretty bad ass..

the conversation has gone way over my head.... I do like the diagrams


WHAT is the official conclusion?

iloveyou

IMHO I think the official conclusion is that we focus more on how many CFL's we need per sq/ft to maximize yields...and not the arbitrary "Add more add more * infinity" because there is a point at which adding does not increase yield.

What we need is to gather the avg yields given total lumens. From there we can find out exactly how many CFL's we need to maximize yields and find the CFL saturation point. Let's call it "adding" lumens because it makes it a lot easier to understand how much light a person is using when they are using different combinations of CFL wattage. This debate has been one of purely semantics...because whether lumens add or not does not matter, what does matter is yields increase with the addition of more bulbs.

And finally, I'd say we can put to rest the notion that Flouro's don't work well because under the proper situations, they do.

I've seen people get approx 8-9 oz easy under 4ft 8bulb T5 lights. People get roughly the same under 400watt HPS. That should not be shocking because its approx the same number of lumens. Anyone on here can look at VV's grows.

In flowering 2-3 plants, the difference in yields for low wattage HPS vs CFL(T5) using LST/SCROG is just not that great. They only difference I've seen is bud density, which again doesn't really say much...given that fluffy bud can weigh the same as compact bud. You just have more fluffy bud.

That's how I see it

 

[BIGSIX]

nice little fixture you built there.
But, to me this is where the use of cfls becomes a hassle, you kinda get to a point of "diminishing returns", you have 14 bulbs in there, with approx 24.5k lumens, your drawing almost 400 watts of power. this is very wasteful imo. get a small hid, build a ghetto cool tube, and have at it(while saving some money on the e-bill). Cfls work great if you are in a rubbermaid tub, or just growing 1 or 2 plants, but once you get to a point, you are just pissing away money to power them, when you could be drawing less watts to get the same output, or draw the same watts and get more than double the lumen output. I mean sure, cfls are nice and affordable, but what good is the money you saved up front, when your wasting 10-15 bucks a month in electricity every month? after a year you'll have spent enough extra money on your e-bill to have bought real lights in the first place.

 

[Tanuvan]

nice little fixture you built there.
But, to me this is where the use of cfls becomes a hassle, you kinda get to a point of "diminishing returns", you have 14 bulbs in there, with approx 24.5k lumens, your drawing almost 400 watts of power. this is very wasteful imo. get a small hid, build a ghetto cool tube, and have at it(while saving some money on the e-bill). Cfls work great if you are in a rubbermaid tub, or just growing 1 or 2 plants, but once you get to a point, you are just pissing away money to power them, when you could be drawing less watts to get the same output, or draw the same watts and get more than double the lumen output. I mean sure, cfls are nice and affordable, but what good is the money you saved up front, when your wasting 10-15 bucks a month in electricity every month? after a year you'll have spent enough extra money on your e-bill to have bought real lights in the first place.

Sorry but you missed the point..."diminishing returns" is not about electricity, it is about how many lumens a plant needs at which point adding more does not increase yield.

 

[White Widow Woman]

C_Pac, your right , twice in a row i said watts, i meant lumens, sorry
As for the lights, it's only intended purpose is for cloning and a very short veg period[like 2 weeks] It has already proved to be quite capable for these tasks. Made great clones with just a bulb or 2 then i switched out the tray and dome for a tiny flood and drain system i made from a rubbermaid and a kitty litter tray, throw the clones in 3.5" net pots fill with hydroton and away they go under the cfl's till they veg a little then they go to bud in the top part of my cab or to a friends soil filled closet. Working great but i would still love to know how many lumens do i really have? Just curiosity really. Thanks for all the help.

Nice little set up P@ssw0rd

WWW

 

[raeman1990]

ah ah ah , i think you guys are getting confused with how series circuits work.... if you have lets say 3 10w lights in a series, that EACH put out 20 lumens (simply number) the 120 volts from ur house gets divided so each light only get 40 volts, than each light will be dimmer resulting in a combined 20 lumens... instead of the expected 60....

 

[Maccabee]

I doubt that the voltage to lumen ratio is a straight line. Where are you getting these numbers?

Furthermore, lights are typically wired in parallel. What makes you think anyone has their lights wired in series?

 

[raeman1990]

Furthermore, lights are typically wired in parallel. What makes you think anyone has their lights wired in series?

thats my point... all lights are parralell... well most are..... but i have seen ocuntless people confuse parallel and series circuits...

and the numbers were just for example sake

 

[raeman1990]

like take christmas lights, if they were in parallel than if one goes out the rest are fine (which is how newer ones are) but most older lights, one goes out, they all go out...

thats because they are in series... why???? because each bulb is rated for 5 volts not 120v.. so all those thirty lights divide the volatage across them so they dont burn out....

 

[Garden Knowm]

like take christmas lights, if they were in parallel than if one goes out the rest are fine (which is how newer ones are) but most older lights, one goes out, they all go out...

thats because they are in series... why???? because each bulb is rated for 5 volts not 120v.. so all those thirty lights divide the volatage across them so they dont burn out....

cool... I never new that.. I remember the old sets of lights... that was pretty lame when ONE light could put the entire string out...


cheers

 

[BigBudBalls]

683 lumens are the equivalent of one watt, emitted to 555 nm wavelength, which is the equivalent of the highest sensitivity of the human eye.

It is subjective...which is why I can't understand why people start making such a big deal over whether or not the Lumens add. Without doing all the math and physics...at the end of the day...something is happening when you add more CFL's because the plant grows more vigorously. And that is really all that matters.

Awesome thread and only jumping in here.

*Something* adds, but only to a point.

Think of it in heat. On candle (say gives off 100F) will eventually warm a room (maybe, the room will dissipate the heat too) But add 50 candles giving off 100F. will the room go to 5000F? No. With enough candles it will reach and maintain 100F. Any more 100F candles and it will recover or get there faster.

Now consider some things burn hotter then others. Cold to hot Propane, mapp butane.

Now, if its Lux, Lumens, intensity, etc.
So with 10 1700lumen CFLs gives you 1700 Lumens, but allows you to get more of it further away. (max at any give spot is 1700)
With a 25,000 Lumens HPS (add a few more for fun) and you can get the 25000 further away.


Am I off base here?

 

[ceestyle]

Awesome thread and only jumping in here.

*Something* adds, but only to a point.

Think of it in heat. On candle (say gives off 100F) will eventually warm a room (maybe, the room will dissipate the heat too) But add 50 candles giving off 100F. will the room go to 5000F? No. With enough candles it will reach and maintain 100F. Any more 100F candles and it will recover or get there faster.

That is a poor analogy.

But to make it usable: put your finger two inches away horizontally from a candle. Now build a ring of candles around your finger. It will be hotter, I guarantee you.

Now, if its Lux, Lumens, intensity, etc.
So with 10 1700lumen CFLs gives you 1700 Lumens, but allows you to get more of it further away. (max at any give spot is 1700)
With a 25,000 Lumens HPS (add a few more for fun) and you can get the 25000 further away.


Am I off base here?

Yes. Think about it like this: Imagine the light is a sprinkler spraying say, 1 gallon per minute in every direction (spherically). Now imagine you put your hand 1 foot away, then two feet away, and then three feet away. Say your hand has an area of 10 square inches, for example. The rate of water delivery to your hand is then simply the total water delivery times the fraction of the total delivery area your hand represents:

For xft: total delivery rate / total delivery area * hand area
For 1ft: 1 gallon per minute / (4 * pi * (1ft)^2) * 10in^2
For 2ft: 1 gallon per minute / (4 * pi * (2ft)^2) * 10in^2
For 3ft: 1 gallon per minute / (4 * pi * (3ft)^2) * 10in^2

You see the origin here of the 1/d^2 rule for light intensity. Now say you add another sprinkler near the other one and place your hand one foot from each. The results are ADDITIVE.

Outside of interference effects, which are are not relevant here, the analogy follows for light, where the water delivery rate is now the watt output. Lumens are our perceived output of the light, which is simply a function of the spectrum and efficiency of output.

Got it?

Furthermore, one can escape the d^2 rule by USING EFFECTIVE REFLECTORS. Aside from the very weak absorption of light by air, all of that power output is still there! So if your growbox were 100% reflective - the only thing that absorbs the light output is the plants - THE DISTANCE FROM THE BULB WOULDN'T MATTER.

Wrap your head around that shit.

 

[P@ssw0rd]

WOW, thanks for the input everybody, the responses really taught me ALOT. Like way mor ethen i ever thought.

In case anyone is wondering i split this array up into 2 smaller ones, It just seemed like far too much light for my purposes then i needed. It haas become a 6 bulb array for my mother cabinet and an 8 bulb array i veg under. Started using a single 26 watt 6500K cfl in a clamp light, less really seems to be more when it comes to clones.
Thanks for the help everybody, It's much appreciated.
P@ssw0rd

Oh Yeah by the way, 14 fucking cfls throw ALOT of heat.