Official CFL Positioning Thread!

[cues]

My clone/first stage veg cupboard.
Not so much about moving the light but more about keeping the plant the correct distance away from the bulbs.
The diy ebb/flow table is a propogator base so it take a lid to clone until rooted then goes up on the res.A pC fan with adjustable PSU is going in next.

 

[electronug]

Yeah already experienced with CFLs. I know the cost ratio between the two. The only question is how much until I have the perfect CFL setup (if such exists). Chances are any more I spend on the CFLs is a waste. I personally think the only perfect setup is using the extensions in my sig along with single bulbs on each. That adds up to a lot and still wont out do a HPS system. So, for $150 or so, a 600w dimmable HPS seems like the best option. I will no doubt still use CFLs for side and under lighting but I don't think they make a great single lighting source.

Adjusting CFLs for side lighting is a pain in the ass. I'm waiting patiently for my plants to overgrow the hanging lights so I can get rid of them and mount another fixed bulb in the gap.

You need to create a blanket of light and have a perfect canopy to maximize the potential... hard to get right on your first run with a new cabinet.

Also, a 600W would serve you well should you decide to scale up.

 

[Catchin22]

Adjusting CFLs for side lighting is a pain in the ass. I'm waiting patiently for my plants to overgrow the hanging lights so I can get rid of them and mount another fixed bulb in the gap.

You need to create a blanket of light and have a perfect canopy to maximize the potential... hard to get right on your first run with a new cabinet.

Also, a 600W would serve you well should you decide to scale up.

You can't get a good blanket of light with CFLs because you loose too much output. In order to do that you would need a really nice SCROG so that you had a nearly flat canopy. This is where the HPS really outshines the CFL, no need to have that. Adjusting side lighting is actually pretty easy if you use the extensions in my sig, the problem is the cost add up. Once I go HPS I will still use those and a few CFLs.

 

[electronug]

Easy if you have the space to mount them and they can't hold the weight of 2 lamps...

The easiest way to get a "blanket" is to use large bulbs (125W+) or use a bank of T5's -- I'm managing pretty well, apart from the front of the cab that is lacking in places to hang fixtures properly. It's added cost, is all.... spending $60 on 2 bulbs kinda sucks.

 

[Thedillestpickle]

Hey CFLers Ive got a humidity dome over some clones with 2 23's on top of the dome. Ive got the two lights pretty much touching the dome. too close? or is that about right?


thanks everyone

 

[electronug]

How tall is the dome?

Should be fine, really... the dome itself cuts the usable light down by a fair chunk and the heat will only increase the humidity, which isn't a bad thing.

Just be sure to give them air once in a while.

 

[Catchin22]

Easy if you have the space to mount them and they can't hold the weight of 2 lamps...

The easiest way to get a "blanket" is to use large bulbs (125W+) or use a bank of T5's -- I'm managing pretty well, apart from the front of the cab that is lacking in places to hang fixtures properly. It's added cost, is all.... spending $60 on 2 bulbs kinda sucks.

The extensions DO work with 2 bulbs and a Y splitter, JUST not as well as a single. You have to manipulate it a bit to stay in position. I think CFLs certainly have their place. They are good additive lights, good for PC grows and those looking to just start at very low costs to get an idea and so on. But once you get to the point of wanting to get the most from even a single plant and not waste your time you have to ditch the CFLs and jump to the HPS. Still id like to see where the CFL trend goes, if higher wattage bulbs push the market at a lower price it could turn out to be comparable to the HPS setups. Then again I think the real future is in LEDs.

Hey CFLers Ive got a humidity dome over some clones with 2 23's on top of the dome. Ive got the two lights pretty much touching the dome. too close? or is that about right?


thanks everyone

As long as it's not melting the dome or causing the heat inside to raise too high.

 

[Thedillestpickle]

The extensions DO work with 2 bulbs and a Y splitter, JUST not as well as a single. You have to manipulate it a bit to stay in position. I think CFLs certainly have their place. They are good additive lights, good for PC grows and those looking to just start at very low costs to get an idea and so on. But once you get to the point of wanting to get the most from even a single plant and not waste your time you have to ditch the CFLs and jump to the HPS. Still id like to see where the CFL trend goes, if higher wattage bulbs push the market at a lower price it could turn out to be comparable to the HPS setups. Then again I think the real future is in LEDs.



As long as it's not melting the dome or causing the heat inside to raise too high.

Yes heat has been a bit of a problem for me, first I had the dome in my veg room under 1000watts HID, at 3 feet from the light the greenhouse effect of the dome ended up cooking all the little clones... by a miracle I managed to save them and had 100% rooting(but I think 2 or 3 are severly stunted now sure if they will ever recover). Unfortunately I forgot to label which cutting came from which mother... ahhhh. So I decided that was a bad idea.. moved my dome out of the veg room and stuck some CFL's over it. I also placed a 17watt heating mat underneath the tray of clones and once again... cooked the shit out of my clones lol. This time it was worse however and Ill be lucky if I get a 10% survival rate. Ive taken the same setup still using the heating mat and same CFL's into the basement now, the ambient temperature of the basement is around 55F so now I'm not getting the extreme heat buildup I was having before(It had climbed to 95F before). Well I will see how it goes now, those were my first two attempts at cloning, hopefully round 3 works out a little better. I need to save these genetics

 

[Catchin22]

If you must you can reveg your mother after harvest and continue to clone it.

 

[Sunbiz1]

Yes heat has been a bit of a problem for me, first I had the dome in my veg room under 1000watts HID, at 3 feet from the light the greenhouse effect of the dome ended up cooking all the little clones... by a miracle I managed to save them and had 100% rooting(but I think 2 or 3 are severly stunted now sure if they will ever recover). Unfortunately I forgot to label which cutting came from which mother... ahhhh. So I decided that was a bad idea.. moved my dome out of the veg room and stuck some CFL's over it. I also placed a 17watt heating mat underneath the tray of clones and once again... cooked the shit out of my clones lol. This time it was worse however and Ill be lucky if I get a 10% survival rate. Ive taken the same setup still using the heating mat and same CFL's into the basement now, the ambient temperature of the basement is around 55F so now I'm not getting the extreme heat buildup I was having before(It had climbed to 95F before). Well I will see how it goes now, those were my first two attempts at cloning, hopefully round 3 works out a little better. I need to save these genetics

I'm finding out real quickly that CFL's can produce heat build-up as well. I use over 300 actual watts in a 5X5X9' closet, that being 6 42W 6700K and 2 42W 2800K bulbs. I use this on cloudy days to augment my sun room, just had to open the closet door due to temps rising over 85F. All of my bulbs are adjusted daily and individually by plant height.

 

[Rottedroots]

No doubt a box full of cfl"s provide a shitload of heat. I have had a lot of trouble keeping things cool enough and have scorched some tops letting them grow into the light. I want the bulbs close but shit you have to be aware cause they can fool you how fast they grow.

I do have to say that I wish the flexible socket extentions were stiffer and stayed where you wanted them just a bit better. I'm only working with 7 inch ones so the long ones must be very poor at weight bearing heavy or even regular bulbs.

I think most guys given the space, money, and opportunity would slide up from cfl's to some sort of high intensity set-up. Why not? I will at some point just cause I know how much it all cost to do a full blown cfl grow. 400 watts of MH would probably be easier in the long run. I guess for me I figure that if I'm gonna invest 4 months in a grow I wanna produce some buddage. Cost be dammed, it's the time. I'm a freakin member of AARP and I got the fanny pack to prove it so fuck all you kids. Time is becoming important. The bastard kids got me a ball cap for Xmass that says "Don't forget my senior discount" on the brim. wtf... stoned and rambling again.

 

[cues]

I can tell you that a 23W CFL at 2cm away is about the same light as sunlight at midday in October in the UK. That's what my DIY light meter says anyway.

Hey CFLers Ive got a humidity dome over some clones with 2 23's on top of the dome. Ive got the two lights pretty much touching the dome. too close? or is that about right?


thanks everyone

 

[Sunbiz1]

No doubt a box full of cfl"s provide a shitload of heat. I have had a lot of trouble keeping things cool enough and have scorched some tops letting them grow into the light. I want the bulbs close but shit you have to be aware cause they can fool you how fast they grow.

I do have to say that I wish the flexible socket extentions were stiffer and stayed where you wanted them just a bit better. I'm only working with 7 inch ones so the long ones must be very poor at weight bearing heavy or even regular bulbs.

I think most guys given the space, money, and opportunity would slide up from cfl's to some sort of high intensity set-up. Why not? I will at some point just cause I know how much it all cost to do a full blown cfl grow. 400 watts of MH would probably be easier in the long run. I guess for me I figure that if I'm gonna invest 4 months in a grow I wanna produce some buddage. Cost be dammed, it's the time. I'm a freakin member of AARP and I got the fanny pack to prove it so fuck all you kids. Time is becoming important. The bastard kids got me a ball cap for Xmass that says "Don't forget my senior discount" on the brim. wtf... stoned and rambling again.

LOL...ask your kids for a bong next year.

 

[bundee1]

• 
  I think most guys given the space, money, and opportunity would slide up from cfl's to some sort of high intensity set-up. Why not? I will at some point just cause I know how much it all cost to do a full blown cfl grow. 400 watts of MH would probably be easier in the long run. I guess for me I figure that if I'm gonna invest 4 months in a grow I wanna produce some buddage. Cost be dammed, it's the time. I'm a freakin member of AARP and I got the fanny pack to prove it so fuck all you kids. Time is becoming important. The bastard kids got me a ball cap for Xmass that says "Don't forget my senior discount" on the brim. wtf... stoned and rambling again.​

  
  
  ​

I can hear your accent coming through with the angah.

 

[Jogro]

Unless you're going with 23W bulbs, HPS will be cheaper.

A small 150W will do for most cabinets if you supplement with CFL.

EDIT: Location dependant, I guess.... 42W CFLs are $15/each here....

At $15 each for 42W CFLs, running HPS instead is a no-brainer.

If you shop around, a 150 watt plug-n-play HPS lamp *with reflector* can be had for as little as $60, meaning right out of the box you're cost competitive with 4-42W CFLs.

Now if you consider that the HPS light puts out about 25% more light with the same power draw, and that the HPS puts out a better SPECTRUM of light, there really is very little reason to go with multiple larger CFL bulbs instead. You'd need five or maybe even six 42W CFLs just to match the effective output of one 150W HPS.

Even if you were only paying $7 each for the CFLs (and that is the actual price in some places), once you factored in the increased number of bulbs you'd need; the socket, wiring and reflector costs; you're still not saving more than at best a few dollars over the simpler 150W HPS system.

The only advantage of these big CFLs is that they're more flexible. If you only wanted to run one 42 watt bulb while your plants were seedlings, you can. If you want to position four bulbs at four separate heights over four plants, or light a garden with a bizarre footprint, those are actual advantages.

Now, if you want to light a REALLY small microgarden of one plant, nothing is going to beat a simple cheap high output CFL. But once you start getting into gardens of several square feet, HPS still "wins".

 

[Catchin22]

Be careful with the 150w HPS systems, especially those with magnetic ballasts... it seems some of the consume 200w to over 400w with some over 500w until warm up! That's a lot of wasted energy. IMO HPS is not much useful until you get 250w or better yet 400. I would personally prefer to have a 600w that is dimmable.

 

[Jogro]

No doubt a box full of cfl"s provide a shitload of heat. I have had a lot of trouble keeping things cool enough and have scorched some tops letting them grow into the light. I want the bulbs close but shit you have to be aware cause they can fool you how fast they grow.

I do have to say that I wish the flexible socket extentions were stiffer and stayed where you wanted them just a bit better. I'm only working with 7 inch ones so the long ones must be very poor at weight bearing heavy or even regular bulbs.

I think most guys given the space, money, and opportunity would slide up from cfl's to some sort of high intensity set-up. Why not? I will at some point just cause I know how much it all cost to do a full blown cfl grow. 400 watts of MH would probably be easier in the long run. I guess for me I figure that if I'm gonna invest 4 months in a grow I wanna produce some buddage. Cost be dammed, it's the time.

Responding to this, contrary to mistaken internet belief, on a watt-per-watt basis CFLs put out MORE heat than HPS lamps, because the CFL bulbs are less intrinsically efficient. In practice the difference isn't that much, but if you think running 400 watts of CFLs is going to be cooler than a 400 watt HPS, you're mistaken.

Both HPS and CFLs put out most (>80%) of the energy they consume as waste heat, meaning that when you're running either inside a closed box, you might as well be running a 400 watt space heater!

See my last post on some sort of breakdown of CFLs vs HID.

In a nutshell, apart from lighting seedlings or clones or such, CFLs pretty much ONLY make sense for very small grows, less than a few square feet. More than a few square feet, you want to use HID lamps. If for some reason you can't get HID lamps, or they're astronomically expensive where you are, then you'd want to use old school linear fluorescent tubes.

 

[Jogro]

Be careful with the 150w HPS systems, especially those with magnetic ballasts... it seems some of the consume 200w to over 400w with some over 500w until warm up! That's a lot of wasted energy. IMO HPS is not much useful until you get 250w or better yet 400. I would personally prefer to have a 600w that is dimmable.

I disagree. Even assuming this were true with your particular lamp, I don't think using 400 watts (and trending downwards) for what amounts to the first 15 minutes per day these lamps is on is really all that big of a deal.

Assuming one on/off cycle per day, it would take sixteen days at 15 minutes per day for your extra 250 watts to add up to one kilowatt hour of energy use.

Median cost for a kilowatt hour of electricity in the USA is about 12 cents. So the extra energy use you're worried about will cost you just under 1 cent per day.

Fluorescent bulbs, ALSO have a warm up time where the suck a little more power, by the way, so the net difference is going to be even less than that.

There is no question that the larger HPS bulbs are more efficient than the smaller ones, and there is some variability in ballast efficiency, but even the smaller HPS lamps are still quite a bit better than CFLs.

 

[Catchin22]

I disagree. Even assuming this were true with your particular lamp, I don't think using 400 watts (and trending downwards) for what amounts to the first 15 minutes per day these lamps is on is really all that big of a deal.

Assuming one on/off cycle per day, it would take sixteen days at 15 minutes per day for your extra 250 watts to add up to one kilowatt hour of energy use.

Median cost for a kilowatt hour of electricity in the USA is about 12 cents. So the extra energy use you're worried about will cost you just under 1 cent per day.

Fluorescent bulbs, ALSO have a warm up time where the suck a little more power, by the way, so the net difference is going to be even less than that.

There is no question that the larger HPS bulbs are more efficient than the smaller ones, and there is some variability in ballast efficiency, but even the smaller HPS lamps are still quite a bit better than CFLs.

You disagree based on what? Have you seen or measured the unites power draw yourself?

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:NY71Vl3SJ6wJ:forum.grasscity.com/lighting/321592-thinking-about-using-150w-hps-dont-bother-heres-why.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

HPS has long been the gold standard for gardening because of its spectral distribution, intensity, and efficiency. This unit is well built, well-finished and well designed.

There is one caveat:
In principle, the HPS system should deliver around 100 Lumens/Watt. However, these low cost units use a magnetic ballast, and the actual efficiency is half that, delivering 42 Lumens/Watt because of those losses.
The actual measured power consumption of this unit, and any like it, is more than 375 Watts,@ 3.2 Amps.
This is not a criticism of this fine product, it is just a reflection of the fact that if you want higher efficiencies, you have to open your wallet and get the digital ballasted larger units.

You can actually get higher efficiency at your power meter with the T-5 equivalent for 16,000 Lumens, or (2) 2-footX 4 lamp fixtures.
It depends on the needs of your crops. Cilantro, small peppers, chives, and basil won't care as much, but tomatoes will.

Later edit: I took mine apart to convert it to CF, and found, on the wiring diagram that the unit requires a 55 Mfd capacitor across the line to correct the Power Factor. On the ballast is a label:
"HPF with 55 mfd capacitor: 2.57 Amps"
NPF without 55 mfd capacitor: 4.25 Amps".

This explains the power guzzling. Had there been room in the case (or the budget) for the PF correcting capacitor I would still be using the HPS lamp. Uncorrected, the Lumens/Watt output is unacceptable. Given that the dominant yellow/green spectral region is useless for photosynthesis, the actual efficiency of the unit is not favorable. Use T5's.

It is a shame that such a well-built and well-finished unit had this fatal flaw.

I'm not saying HPS are bad, if the rating is wrong by those who tested it then it's a decent deal, otherwise a waste. I can get 12 26w CFLs locally for something like $18. It would take 9 to put out what a 150w HPS does. Of course that does not account for the mounting prices for your CFLs either.

I think the best situation is a combination of CFLs plus HPS.

 

[420hydro]

Check out my 10 bulb CFL array post:

https://www.rollitup.org/cfl-fluorescent-lighting/503956-10-bulb-cfl-array.html