Get a Harvest Every 2 Weeks

Status
Not open for further replies.

Al B. Fuct

once had a dog named
Gday Al,

Really enjoy your tutorials mate, much obliged. Seen them on OS to, well done.
I just love to spread the good word. :)

I live fairly close to Nimbin, what an overkill! :evil:
yeah, seriously gripes my ass to see the piggies, many WITHOUT NAME BADGES to avoid being held responsible for abuses, hassling poor old pensioners.
I think the problem there lately is a lot of young blokes hassling tourists, fighting, and selling stuff heavier than weed. Perhaps they should of done their raid later in the day and targeted those clowns rather than the 'Embassy' and Museum, dorks.
Oh well, that's been true forever. A real small number of smackies and tweekers have been fucking up Nimbin for a long time and need to have their ears clipped. However, the vast majority of Nimbies are good ol dope smokin' hippies, who are extremely dangerous... to choc chip bickies... but not much else.

Keep up the good work Al.
thanks mon. :)
 

Maccabee

Well-Known Member
A REAL good reason. F&D is brilliant mainly because it's soooooo simple. There's nothing to clog and just one thing to break- the pump. I keep a half dozen spares on hand.

Mac, I'm a BSEE but also a slacker- and your plan scares the crap out of both of me. :D
Yeah, it's not for the faint of heart and I wouldn't really suggest it. For most applications in which that would be desirable it makes more sense to plumb a short vertical pipe to a horizontal loop with a vertical overflow at the return, and elevate the trays slightly above the loop on risers. The height of the overflow controls the level of the water in the trays. The water fills to that level when the pump is engaged and then begins to recirculate. When the pump is turned off, water empties back into the res through the return side of the loop (which is on a gentle slope.)


I can do something in Sketch-Up if that doesn't make sense. It's sort of a bastardized "hydro-ron" setup, if you've ever seen one of those.
 

insanestang4life

Well-Known Member
If I was gonna build this room and do a setup like yours, Which strain out of these would you guys use? I am leaning towards the Blue Mystic since it is Indica dominant, flowers in 7-9 weeks, likes indoor growing, good thc level 15-20%, average yield, and it looks awesome. But, here are the choices Blue Mystic, California Orange Bud, Ice, Arjans Haze #1, PPP or Pure Power Plant, AK47,Euforia,or White Widow? Let me know what you guys think and why! Thanks again all.....
 

Al B. Fuct

once had a dog named
Mac, while I appreciate you applying some thought to this, if whatever you concoct is more complex than a pump and a straight length of hose, it's a complexity which will not in the end improve the function of the system.

That the cheapo (and some not-so-cheapo) centrif pumps allow gravity backflow when not spinning obviates the need for complex valving, plumbing and whatnot. Active valving would be a critical failure point, particularly where acidic/corrosive/mineral-laden nute solns meet mechanical valves controlled by electronics in a high-humidity environment.

Centrif aquarium water pumps were around long before flood hydro systems- and probably begat this particular hydro system design. The result is wot we in the biz call an 'elegant' engineering solution, one with high utility and reliability as well as elemental, irreducible mechanical simplicity. I would have loved to have been the person who noticed that these pumps will allow backflow- it must have been a seriously fun discovery moment. :) Elegant solutions, through their simplicity in concert with their compliance with the design specification, are more than the sum of their parts.

It's always a bit of fun to think about a better mousetrap, but in the case of F&D, we're already catching lots of the rotten little beggars with no more nor fewer parts than necessary. I'm honestly not sure what problem you're trying to solve.
 

Maccabee

Well-Known Member
This will probably help (see attachment).

I do it this way as I don't actually use trays (although I should have.) I use cups that the net pots sit in (I may convert), on risers from the loop. The other reason I do it this way is that due to where the reservoir has to be a normal F&D wouldn't fully drain and the same trapped nutrient mixture would be reused over and over again as it would always be at the top of the water column pushed up by the pump.

In short, I wanted recirculation when the pump was running, and needed to go "up and over" with the fill line--requiring a separate return.
 

Attachments

Al B. Fuct

once had a dog named
If I was gonna build this room and do a setup like yours, Which strain out of these would you guys use? I am leaning towards the Blue Mystic since it is Indica dominant
[...]
Let me know what you guys think and why! Thanks again all.....
Of those, I've only done Power Plant. Massive yielder, average potency, fair to good mould resistance. Good reliable commercial strain, not really smoker's esoterica, tho I'd grow it again.

The main characters I like from the view of a slacker doing the harvesting work in a production environment (as opposed to a hobby grower) is low leaf to bud ratio and fewer, larger buds per plant. That pretty much encompasses most indica dom strains, tho.

Once upon a time, I had 7 strains running. In a SoG, uniformity of plants is a very desirable thing. I cut that down to Sweet Tooth #4 in the end as the best compromise of yield, mould resistance, ease of harvest and pleasant smoking characters. When in the same tray with other flavours, slower developing strains tend to develop even more slowly and sparsely when they have to compete for light with some monster strains that just plain take over. I swore my LUIs and Power Plants were going to kill and eat an AK47 and a White Widow or two when I was not properly paying attention. :D
 

Al B. Fuct

once had a dog named
This will probably help (see attachment).
I'm sorry, but it actually doesn't! I'm more confused than ever! It's not obvious to me how this works.

In short, I wanted recirculation when the pump was running.
I'm sure there's some physical complexity preventing you from doing so, but a straight shot to the tray from the pump means that whatever drains out of the tray will go back to the tank and not remain in the plumbing.
 

Maccabee

Well-Known Member
I'm sorry, but it actually doesn't! I'm more confused than ever! It's not obvious to me how this works.
OK. There's a pump on a timer. It pumps nute solution up the fill tube (the shorter tube rising from the reservoir.) The nutrient solution rises to the high point of the overflow at the end of the return side of the loop--so the height of that overflow determines the water level in the trays/cups.

I use a telescoping 1/2" PVC riser so I can adjust it on the fly.

Then the water falls down the other side of the overflow back into the res. During the flood cycle it is recirculated back through to maintain the water pressure and so the water level (although the nute solution pumped into the trays will stay there for the cycle and not be replaced until the next one once the lines are pressurized.)

When the pump turns off, the system drains fully through the return leg of the loop, as it is slightly lower.

Does that make sense?


I'm sure there's some physical complexity preventing you from doing so, but a straight shot to the tray from the pump means that whatever drains out of the tray will go back to the tank and not remain in the plumbing.
Yes, I have to go up and over an obstacle from the reservoir and then back down to below plant level, which isn't shown in the diagram. This would trap stale nutrient solution at the top of the system.

The immediate response might be--so fill through the leg your draining with now, and don't use a loop. I considered that, but it doesn't really work for me--there are still bends in the return after the overflow that aren't in the diagram. Some amount of solution would still be trapped (less, but at least a few cups.) With this setup, it doesn't matter if some solution remains in the return leg, it will be cycled through the res before being pumped back up again.

Plus, I still liked the idea of keeping the solution circulating during the flood cycle. Finally, and maybe most importantly, using a loop with an overflow not only allows you to adjust the water level on the fly but makes precise timing of the flood cycle to achieve that water level unnecessary. I don't have to worry about a pump running too long and causing a tray or cup to overflow. This is important as while my res in on the floor, the loop and the plants are in a cabinet above a row of appliances! Otherwise one would have to add an overflow to the trays, which would fix the water-level (and isn't really feasible with cups.)

If you want the benefit of the overflow without the hassle of the loop, you can just add one with a tee, in-line between the res and the trays in a standard setup. It works the same way, the trays will fill to the level of the overflow and then the overflow will return excess to the res. To change fill level you adjust the height of the overflow, and stop mucking around with pumping times.

Also for really large setups you could use something more efficient and reliable than an aquarium pump. With this kind of setup, scale up the PVC size and you could use a sump pump with giant trays.

But I'm not knocking your tray system, it's much more straightforward. I'd be happily using it if I had the room. And I'll probably replace my cups with smallish trays, because these cups are stupid. I'm not sure why I did that.

Your point about elegance in design is well taken. I feel like what I'm describing is indeed something of an inelegant hack, but it does let you adapt to tricky physical layouts, or be more flexible about the pumping setup. It's not all that prone to failure but it is somewhat ugly and improvised.
 

Al B. Fuct

once had a dog named
hmm, ok- but it occurs to me that even if a straight fill line has to loop over obstacles, even those which are above the tray flood level, during drainback, siphon action will almost fully drain the hose as the long as the outlet is below the tray drain fitting. The height limit of any obstacle would be the head limit of the pump, usually about 1-1.3m for small centrif pumps.
 

Maccabee

Well-Known Member
Right. With this, you can use a big ol sump pump and a check valve if you need to. (For my setup a two hundred something pond pump works fine.)
 

Al B. Fuct

once had a dog named
ok, but how does it drain back at the end of a flood cycle if there's ck valves in the fill line, which normally becomes the drain for water below the overflow level?
 

Maccabee

Well-Known Member
That's a good point. Or rather, they're both good points. The siphon action with a pump that will allow draining though it might very well be enough. Also, using a pump or valve that prevents that adds more complexity. If you did it that way you'd have a little standing solution in the vertical part of the fill line, up to the level of the loop. However:

- Any solution in the system past the top of the rise of the fill line that is at or above the level of the loop but below the top of the overflow would drain into and remain in the return leg, before the overflow

-The solution standing in the fill pipe will still not yet have been used by the plant, and some will be drained into the return leg at the beginning of the next cycle to fill the overflow and return leg before the water level can rise to the trays. So the plants wouldn't see some of that standing nutrient it until it was recirculated again anyway.

I'm not sure all utility/sump pumps need a check valve, or if some can permit draining through the pumps. You might end up having to rely on a spring loaded valve to allow draining from the fill side when it's not pressurized. I'm sharing the design as much for novelty as anything else, as the topic of other types of pumps came up.

It's kludgey, like I said, but it works a treat. It might need refinement for use with a sump/utlity pump, etc--I could see the problem you're pointing out becoming problematic depending on the physical layout of the plumbing.


Like you said, it makes no sense to attempt this (except maybe borrowing the overflow for inline use) unless you need to.
 

VictorVIcious

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure all utility/sump pumps need a check valve, or if some can permit draining through the pumps.
I am sure that all sump pumps meant to pump water out of a crock and put it on the ground outside need a check valve. The reason is the length of the run. They have to pump an average of 10' to pump it out. If there was no check valve the water would just flow back to the crock, the lowest point in the system. Because of the amount of water contained in an 1 1/2" or larger pipe 10' long this can refill the crock, causing the pump to come on and drain the water into the pipe, shut down and turn off to pump the water into the pipe, shutoff to fill the crock, come on to fill the pipe, shut off..... you get the idea.
You don't need to adjust your height on the fly to make sure you get overflow and there is not any purpose in doing so unless you just like the sound. A 500 gallon/ hour pump will pump the same amount of water in a given time period all the time. You are making a project out of a job. Throw that check valve away and let the system run, measure the height of the water, when its were you want it, about 1/2 the height of your pots is adequate, set your timer to run that amount of time. It will always pump that amount of water in that amount of time. KISS . VV:blsmoke:
 

Al B. Fuct

once had a dog named
What I'm not getting is why it has to be any more complicated than this:



Even this layout, with the ultra-luxurious (;)) 'flip-2-valves-to-drain' addition, is more complex than needed to make it work.

This much I can tell you; after a number of years of running numerous different kinds of ops and hybrid variations of them is that VV's 'KISS' maxim makes a hell of a lot of sense.

Building the system is one thing, running it day-to-day is quite another.

Less is more. Simplicity is a core component of high reliability.
 

Kaosisglobal

Well-Known Member
Hey Al, can you describe more possible low budget hydro solutions. I started in Hydro and have 4 plants in soil. They are going, but really slow. I love my hydro. What is it called when people take a bunch of cut 2 liters, and drop it in a tray with grodan??? How exactly is the right way to go about that??
 

Maccabee

Well-Known Member
What I'm not getting is why it has to be any more complicated than this:...
Less is more. Simplicity is a core component of high reliability.
It doesn't have to be! Your design is great. Although I don't think the design I showed is all *that* complicated. There's still only one pump, and in my setup I'm using the typical pond style pump. It's just more plumbing, and uses a physical device to regulate water level rather than relying on a timer.

Ultimately, it got built the way it did because I had already seen the plans for F&D systems using cut down bottles and an overflow, and when I looked at the space I wanted to use I immediately saw how I could adapt that design. By the time I was done I had even moved the reservoir up off the floor and over a little, which means that in the end I probably could have gone with the more straightforward version. But I like the way this works.

>shrug<

I've been running the system for a couple weeks (without any plants in it) to make sure it's sound. So far, so good. Soon I should have some clones ready to go in. We'll see how it goes.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top