Apollo Series LED panels from Cidly

[Psytranceorgy]

Does anyone have any experience???

http://www.cidly.com/html/en/Apollo_Series.html

I am considering making a purchase... customized spectrum... 90 degree lenses...

I can get the Apollo 12 (12pc 15-LED modular 'orbs') 180 total 3W LEDs with 430W power draw for about $1/watt shipped...

Interested if anyone has any experience to share... Thanks!

 

[curly604]

ive heard there ok but not amazing , those modular type leds throw me off man i dont like them seems like alot of light could be wasted / these companies could make and sell an led with out them that performs just as good for cheaper so why they bother? ... thats just my opinion though.

 

[Psytranceorgy]

well

1 - I don't see how any light is 'wasted' by modularity, in fact modularity improves performance/maintenance as there is no single point of failure for the power to the panel... i.e. one 'orb' can lose power, the others still work. You can replace parts easier... etc...
2 - even with whatever extra cost might be involved in manufacturing panels with these 'improvements' - custom angled lenses, custom spectrum, excellent heat sink/fan/airflow, modular power, etc.. (however 'necessary' or 'beneficial' they may be argued to be), I am still able to get a 430W power draw panel with 180pc custom spectrum 3W LEDs for $1/watt shipped... I have not seen that anyone else can come close to that... I mean, I am the owner of two Blackstars from Gotham Hydroponics myself, and I am a big fan of my panels! I have documented 3 very successful grows with them here on RIU, but even Blackstars are closer to $2/watt... BEFORE shipping...

Plus they come with 3 year warranty and service, so I'm still pretty interested in these Apollos... but yeah there are not too many documented grows with them, so I guess I may be a guinea pig if I go for one...

my spectrum would look like (15 LEDs in each modular 'orb', 12 orbs total in Apollo 12):

3 Red 660nm
3 Red 650-670nm
2 Red 630-640nm
2 Red 620-630nm
1 Orange 610-615nm
2 Blue 450-470nm
1 Blue 420-430nm
1 White 6000K

1/2 lenses: 90 degree angle
1/2 lenses: 120 degree angle



Cidly does not have the ability to manufacture an Apollo with switchable spectrums yet (they say August 2012 for this technology), so I opted against any IR wavelengths, as I would only want to have this spectrum on during flowering phase. Also the IR LEDs add $2ea to the cost of a panel... ugh. There are no 280-315 UVB LEDs available, so I also opted against their UV options (380nm-400nm, 400nm-410nm) as well. I figured I would continue to use my Reptisun 10.0 UVB reptile lights for UVB supplementation.

Figured I could use an Apollo 12 as the main overhead light in my 2x4 tent, and use a Blackstar240 (I have 2) on each end as side lighting. I also supplement with 2 68W 2700K CFLs.

Any thoughts/advice is appreciated =D

 

[jubiare]

I think there was a thread on here a guy was using it? It's kind of gone with the spam day there's been....

Psytrance, good luck on that; I think what I heard on an other board was that they drive the diodes quite hard, so the panel was emitting some heat. Maybe you could ask if there is any way they could drive them slightly softer? (ask first at what Ma they drive them, if they drive all the color at same power etc). You can always come back on here and discuss it if you like. Other than that, I am curios about them coz I nearly went that route.

 

[Psytranceorgy]

I think there was a thread on here a guy was using it? It's kind of gone with the spam day there's been....

Psytrance, good luck on that; I think what I heard on an other board was that they drive the diodes quite hard, so the panel was emitting some heat. Maybe you could ask if there is any way they could drive them slightly softer? (ask first at what Ma they drive them, if they drive all the color at same power etc). You can always come back on here and discuss it if you like. Other than that, I am curios about them coz I nearly went that route.

Thanks jubiare, your comments are very welcome. It is true that they seem to drive the diodes a little harder than others... For example:

Each Apollo 12 has 180 3W LEDs and draws 430W power. So each LED appears to run at 430/180 = 2.389 W (This ~2.4W/LED remains stable throughout their Apollo series)

By comparison, my Blackstar 240s have 80 3W LEDs, and draw 135W power. So each LED appears to run at 135/80 = 1.6875 W (This ~1.7W/LED remains stable throughout their models)

This is about 25% more power... Now, Mr. Sing Lee @ Cidly does state that they have made improvements on the Apollo series panels in heat management with better fans/heatsinks/airflow, and that this is one of the reasons why they are able to drive their diodes at higher power than others...

However, I (like you) have also read on another site about someone's experience with Apollo panel getting quite hot... hrm...

Well one other thing, Mr. Sing Lee has been EXTREMELY communicative AND helpful during my research/decision-making process... We have exchanged over 30 emails, and he has provided me with a LOT of useful information, including screenshots of spectrum graphs generated from their LEDs, which he states are Epistar LEDs. I'll post a couple of these graphs here, for your information, hoping it might be helpful... Maybe you can use it to determine something further about their power and how they drive their LEDs... (although maybe the screenshot is only representative of the conditions when testing the LEDs/generating spectrum... not so much representative of operating conditions in an assembled panel...)



I will shoot another email to Sing about the power concerns... Thanks again, appreciate any feedback!

 

[jubiare]

yes do that see what they say I remember cidly is def the first company that came out with that design.. I suspect many others having that design buy off them...

 

[Psytranceorgy]

yes do that see what they say I remember cidly is def the first company that came out with that design.. I suspect many others having that design buy off them...

Correct, it looks like Cidly came up with the design and many others buy off them. Cidly has previous models/designs prior to the Apollo series, and others companies have been doing business with that design as well...

 

[PSUAGRO.]

$1 a watt with real epistar's???????????? i dunno, tough to believe........good luck

 

[tenthirty]

I wonder how many diodes you have to buy to get the $1.00 price from epistar?

 

[Raina]

you seem know much about cidly apollo led grow light.. how come???

 

[PSUAGRO.]

I wonder how many diodes you have to buy to get the $1.00 price from epistar?

LOL.......yeah that's before they build the panel.................this cidly panel is a dollar a watt with labor/utilities/parts/shipping/etc. included....And REAL epistars aren't that impressive spec wise to begin with, ....just think of how good their counterfeits are

 

[FranJan]

Hey Psy I'm gonna play devil's advocate for a moment.

When a Chinese panel manufacturer says "Epistar" he's talking about many companies. Whether the diodes come from Epi's actual Taiwanese factory is anybody's guess. Let me try to explain. Here's a little news story from last year:
http://www.sr-leds.com/2011/0221/112.html

And here's the old cut and paste with the important parts embiggened.

Everlight, Epistar and China Electronics Corp. Jointly Builds China Mainland’s Biggest Integrated LED Factory Published on 2011-02-21 23:45:41

​

Aiming at tapping mainland China LED lighting market further, Everlight is reported to pour US $10.8 million to acquire approximately 9% ownership in an LED venture co-held by Epistar and China Electronics Corp. (CEC). Among the partners, CEC holds a 44% stakes in the venture, and Epistar holds 40% . The venture is designated to supply CEC all of the chips it makes. And according to Epistar executives, besides the venture, Epistar will be another chip supplier of CEC. The venture will contract Everlight to package its chips for CEC backlights and assemble on its own the chips into bulb modules contracted by CEC. The venture will be built on a 300-acre site in the mainland and start production sometime next year. In the initial stage, the joint venture is set to have capital of around US$120 million and 30 metal MOCVD chambers. It is estimated to be the mainland`s biggest integrated factory for making LEDs.


So in this scenario both Epi and Everlight supplies or builds chips/modules/whatever for CEC. Epistar also has many other relationships like this in China. So do you think the person at Cidly is going to tell you their diodes are CEC or Everlight or TPV or some other company you've never heard of? Nope they'll call them Epi's, partly because of marketing, partly because they might be, and partly because he knows the average consumer won't know the difference, and doesn't have the ability or equipment to test them. I bought a panel straight from China and the diodes don't come with certificates of authenticity. And you can show me all the graphs you want, how do you really know they have anything to do with those diodes or panels? Cidly is in the LED industry, not exactly the most honest group of people I've done business with. They want your money. Whether you give them it is up to you. I actually hope you buy one and it works out great for you. Just don't let your guard down because they're all full of shit IMHO. Good Luck!

 

[LYDIAhy1959]

LOL.......yeah that's before they build the panel.................this cidly panel is a dollar a watt with labor/utilities/parts/shipping/etc. included....And REAL epistars aren't that impressive spec wise to begin with, ....just think of how good their counterfeits are

have you ever purchase a stuff from them?

 

[Psytranceorgy]

Hey FranJan,

That LED Star company you purchased your 5w x 60 LED panel from... They also sell these same Apollo lights (like many other companies reselling them)... and they advertise (just like everyone else lol) bridgelux/epistar/semi ​3w chips...

Also, LED Star advertise bridgelux/epistar/semi/oram 5w chips...

What were the factors that helped you decide to throw $360 at them for your panel? I understand that you are considering purchasing another LED Star panel now?

What details were you able to find for your 5w LEDs? Do you know the Brand/model used? (Does anyone? lol) The size of the diodes? Even better, the input voltage?

I see 630mA input current in your pictures, which is the same input current on my Blackstars (and possibly the same that most other 3W LED are driven at)... I expected to see a higher input current driving a 5w LED?

I also expect them to be physically larger than the 3W LEDs? (I dunno... lol) and in your pictures it is hard to see this... I know you (like me) own Blackstars, so can you comment about this?

Thanks a bunch in advance, I really appreciate your feedback! I have also asked Mr. Sing Lee at Cidly alot of questions about 5w LEDs, and I will share his answers...

Here is some information about the Cidly Apollo series that I was provided by Mr. Sing Lee since my last post:

Now there are some sizes of LEDs on the market: 24mil, 38mil, 40mil, 45mil.
To the same size LEDs, if the input voltage is the same, whose input current is large, the LED power will increase. And the larger LED size, the more stable its ability and lifespan. And our Apollos are built with 45mil LEDs, so their lifespan will never be a problem.
And even the same size LEDs, the input voltage between each colour is also different.

3W LEDs input voltage:
Red and Orange = 2.7V
Blue, White and UV LEDs = 3.8V
IR LED = 1.7V

And our input current is 700mA or 730mA(according to our clients' demand)

Apollo 12 built with 10 pcs Red LEDs, 1pcs Orange LED, 3pcs Blue LEDs, 1pcs White LED, the actual power:

Input current 700mA: 11x1.89+4x2.66=31.43Wx12=377W - OR - Input Current 730mA: 11x1.971+4x2.774=32.77x12=393W.

And the old model 3W LED grow light input current is 630mA, so their power are lower.

It is because we can offer a better thermal technology so that we can increase the input current and finally increase our Power. And our competitors are still stuck in the thermal problem, they build their products with 630mA, if they increase their input current, their products will be burnt.
And we have applied a patent for our Apollo thermal system, here is the patent numbers and CE,Rohs certificates numbers:
Patent number:
201120333059.4 2011090700341020
201120333047.1 2011090700341140
201130310840.5 2011090700247760
CE certificate number: HYT20110823110301E
ROHS certificate number: HYT20110823110301R

Yes, i am 100% sure that we can build your products with all Epistar LEDs as your spetrum.

Cidly is the largest manufacturer in this field, reputation is very important to us.

 

[Psytranceorgy]

and a few pics Mr. Sing Lee provided of their touted Thermal dissipation system:

 

[The Lurker]

Thanks for the info, guys. Appreciated the recent spec sheets, too (FWIW).

Here is some information about the Cidly Apollo series that I was provided by Mr. Sing Lee since my last post:

3W LEDs input voltage:
Red and Orange = 2.7V
Blue, White and UV LEDs = 3.8V
IR LED = 1.7V

I can see why they're pulling more watts than you'd think. A good CREE/LUXEON blue/white will require ~3.2-3.4V @ 700 mA; the reds, ~2.3V. So you're driving more watts at the same mA than with top-tier LEDs - which also makes them less efficient.

See the cool white Epi's? Only 84.9 lumens/watt @ 25°C, before thermal de-rating of the relative luminous flux at operating Tj. A good, high-bin CREE will still give you ~120 l/w @ 700mA, which is ~40%+ more.

And our input current is 700mA or 730mA(according to our clients' demand)

Now, this...does concern me. Anyone who understands just how much de-rating affects red LEDs in particular knows that running anything over ~550mA for even top-tier LEDs, results in a significant drop-off of efficiency (and total life), moreso from the excess heat at this point than from the amperage per se.

Kind of like the difference between in vitro, and in vivo, results within biological systems.

Obviously, they're running the whole module at that level, rather than breaking them up by type, to save on cost. If they were being responsible about it, they'd limit the module to ~570mA and under, so that the LEDs in the greatest quantity (i.e. reds) operated at a reasonable efficiency, while still leaving a lot of 'headroom' on the whites and blues, also.

Otherwise - Better to DIY and run separate mA to separate channels, if you've got the time and know-how. That will also allow you to run different lighting requirements for indica vs. sativa-dominant strains, and create near-optimal conditions (using 0-10 VDC (i.e. analog) dimmer circuits) for all four stages of plant growth (i.e. germination, vegetative, early flowering, late flowering).

Vegetative growth doesn't require nearly as much PPFD, also, so one can improve the overall total g/kWh ratio by regulating current usage during early stages of development.

I'd recommend using analog vs. PWM dimming, too - for several reasons.

and a few pics Mr. Sing Lee provided of their touted Thermal dissipation system:

Hmmmm.

Well...those heat sinks look to be a little bit anemic, to be honest. I would expect to have longer fins for the kind of watts that are going through each module - fans, or no. I'm sure that probably saves on their shipping (and manufacturing) costs, though.

Too many watts in too small a space, IMO. But perhaps in terms of cost, they're disposible enough $$$-wise that if they work for awhile, maybe that's long enough.

I just wouldn't expect them to last all that long.

------------

Anyway, my $0.02 - hope it works for you!


Cheers,

-TL

 

[Psytranceorgy]

thank you Lurker for your comments... things to research further =) exactly what I'm into... finding the truth!

 

[FranJan]

There's a lot of reasons I went with LED Star finally and most of them had more to do with my being comfortable with them and my interest at the time for a panel with larger diodes. I talked to these guys for a month plus and they answered all my questions and never gave me any kind of hard sell. I had a conversation with a technician/engineer for a week about UVB diodes. He thought I was nuts and couldn't understand why I wanted them, but he was ready to design the panel with independent power/timers for those diodes. Of course once I found out how much a real UVB diode I could use with the 5x60 cost, I think it was $120.00 each , I said forget it. They helped me with my spectrum decisions, were straight-forward about what diodes/spectrums they could or couldn't get, and they didn't talk shit about other companies. Plus when I was researching them, I found that they had actually done a cannabis growing demo in California, which made me believe they had some practical experience. I could go on longer but I'll shorten this by saying they just fit the bill at the time. And in the long run my intuition paid off because I ended up with a product, while not the most efficient or sexy, does a great job and I didn't have to part with a big chunk of money on a product that I won't want to use in 2 years. Do I trust them 100%? No, but I've got a lot to learn about LED diodes still and I have to trust someone.

Diode wise the size of the LED Star are definitely bigger. I've forgotten the exact size but can find out later if you really want me to. Doesn't mean they work better than whats in the BS but I like to think so . And I'll be honest with you Psy, I've given up trying to identify diodes from Asia, do they even believe in binning ? By the time I bought this panel I was more interested in guarantees and return policies. I mean c'mon they're all Epi's right? And why I cant completely see the heat sinks on the Apollo, it looks very similar to the three on my 5x60. From what I've read in LED design textbooks, if you are using active cooling your design is shit basically. So if the guys from Cidly are using fans to cool their panels I wouldn't believe too much about their superior cooling. On the other hand though if they aren't using fans, just those heat sinks, they've probably put some thought into those panels and that could be a good sign IMHO.


Hope this helps. Happy Growing!

 

[jubiare]

that's the thing with commercial panels... do they really care about efficiency and longevity of the diodes? Yes?

So why they run them all together that hard, without separating the whites/blues from the reds?

Mhhhhhhhh

 

[Psytranceorgy]

yeah... I hear you guys... god bless RIU THANKS!