Apollo Series LED panels from Cidly
- Thread starter Psytranceorgy
- Start date
The Lurker
Member
You can't patent particular wavelengths in a board, folks. That's just marketing BS. No attorney worth his salt would touch it with a 3m pole.
I welcome the first idiot drop-shipper that tries to make such a 'patent infringement' stick - on a Shenzhen OEM, or the buyer.
In e.shine's case, after further checking in the reef/coral community, it turns out they have actual CREEs available, as well as Bridgelux for ~35-40% less. Their Aqua Washers look promising, too.
But if a drop-shipper (HGL, Advanced, Pro Source, etc.) tells you they're using CREEs in their panels, take that with a grain of salt.
I may decide to pull the trigger on some of those myself later this year, once my situation is more settled.
View attachment 2120537
(This graph is from the CREE XP-E specifications. I expect an Epistar to be less efficient still.)
Note that at 700mA+, it's common to have a Tj between 70-100°C--! Don't be fooled by the temp on the heatsink exterior or the fixture; junction temperatures (which dictate emitter efficiency) are always much higher.
(Right now, almost all spec sheets are rated at a consistent Tj of 25°C. You will NEVER get this low in-circuit; that's lower than most ambient air temps just in your garden! Only way you'd get even close to that is using Peltier cooling (which is massively inefficient, and uses more than twice the watts it employs for cooling) or with a water-cooled HS, like you see in some high-end gaming desktops.
Most folks forget about de-rating performance when estimating output, simply because they don't fully understand how LEDs and typical electronic/solid state circuit losses work. But unless they've got a background in it, they shouldn't be expected to.)
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With typical drivers used in these units, expect no better than ~85-86% efficiency at operating load.
So, if you were using their (Epi) cool whites (not warm), and those spec sheets were actually close to real-world performance, you might expect to actually get something closer to:
200 * 0.85 * 0.85 x 84.9 = 12,268 lumens, or thereabouts.
To get ~200w at the LEDs, you'd need an initial draw from the wall of closer to ~235w.
(With a 90% efficient driver, that drops to only ~222 watts)
That's no different than - let's say - looking at a 400w HPS bulb, and expecting to get the stated lm/w from the manufacturer, when in fact you'd have to account for ballast losses (~460-480w total system draw using a typical magnetic ballast) and all the rest, either.
It's always less than what's stated; as long as we understand that, no problem. The issues we have usually lie in our expectations vs. in-system performance, not the equipment itself.
----------------------
I'll note that as an industry trend, the new CREE XT-E and XB-D's now do their binning and labeling at 85°C, which is much closer to real-world, 'in-vivo' results - and is a move I applaud.
That also means that if you can get your thermal management under control, you can (for the first time) actually get better performance than what the spec sheets list for their B&L.
Hope to see more companies following this trend.
Cheers,
-TL
I welcome the first idiot drop-shipper that tries to make such a 'patent infringement' stick - on a Shenzhen OEM, or the buyer.
Gotcha; no worries. One must consider lumens/dollar as well as lumens/watt. It might not be as efficient, but neither does it mean that it has to be crap, too.
In e.shine's case, after further checking in the reef/coral community, it turns out they have actual CREEs available, as well as Bridgelux for ~35-40% less. Their Aqua Washers look promising, too.
But if a drop-shipper (HGL, Advanced, Pro Source, etc.) tells you they're using CREEs in their panels, take that with a grain of salt.
I may decide to pull the trigger on some of those myself later this year, once my situation is more settled.
Don't worry about it Psy; just use the 90's and grow shorter plants. With 60's you'll always have something still in shadow, unless it's one-plant-per. Better to have more consistent coverage and a larger light footprint; 60's are overrated.
Thanks mate! Yes, there are several ways to reduce voltage to a string or partial (sounds like he'll be running a separate one off the same driver for just the reds - always better to have one driver per string instead), it's Electronics 101; problem is such methods always reduce efficiency to a degree. But as long as it works for ya, then hey, you'll get a working light out of it.
Unfortunately sf.....no, not in actual practice. If we wanted to be more precise, then we'd have to take into account both 1) Driver Losses (~10-20%), AND 2) Temperature De-rating at the junction (another ~10-15%):
View attachment 2120537
(This graph is from the CREE XP-E specifications. I expect an Epistar to be less efficient still.)
Note that at 700mA+, it's common to have a Tj between 70-100°C--! Don't be fooled by the temp on the heatsink exterior or the fixture; junction temperatures (which dictate emitter efficiency) are always much higher.
(Right now, almost all spec sheets are rated at a consistent Tj of 25°C. You will NEVER get this low in-circuit; that's lower than most ambient air temps just in your garden! Only way you'd get even close to that is using Peltier cooling (which is massively inefficient, and uses more than twice the watts it employs for cooling) or with a water-cooled HS, like you see in some high-end gaming desktops.
Most folks forget about de-rating performance when estimating output, simply because they don't fully understand how LEDs and typical electronic/solid state circuit losses work. But unless they've got a background in it, they shouldn't be expected to.)
--------------
With typical drivers used in these units, expect no better than ~85-86% efficiency at operating load.
So, if you were using their (Epi) cool whites (not warm), and those spec sheets were actually close to real-world performance, you might expect to actually get something closer to:
200 * 0.85 * 0.85 x 84.9 = 12,268 lumens, or thereabouts.
To get ~200w at the LEDs, you'd need an initial draw from the wall of closer to ~235w.
(With a 90% efficient driver, that drops to only ~222 watts)
That's no different than - let's say - looking at a 400w HPS bulb, and expecting to get the stated lm/w from the manufacturer, when in fact you'd have to account for ballast losses (~460-480w total system draw using a typical magnetic ballast) and all the rest, either.
It's always less than what's stated; as long as we understand that, no problem. The issues we have usually lie in our expectations vs. in-system performance, not the equipment itself.
----------------------
I'll note that as an industry trend, the new CREE XT-E and XB-D's now do their binning and labeling at 85°C, which is much closer to real-world, 'in-vivo' results - and is a move I applaud.
That also means that if you can get your thermal management under control, you can (for the first time) actually get better performance than what the spec sheets list for their B&L.
Hope to see more companies following this trend.
Cheers,
-TL
astroastro
Active Member
It is not possible to lower the Vf (forward voltage, or 'input voltage') of an LED by varying the input voltage. Forward voltage is a function of the materials and process used to fabricate the diode junction (LED die). Forward voltage of an LED at the current state of manufacturing is an interesting topic- running the die hot will lower the forward voltage- but running it hot typically involves driving more current through the junction, which will actually drive the forward voltage up at a faster rate than the heat, as mentioned above, will tend to drive it down.Originally Posted by PsytranceorgySo it sounds to me like Sing is able to simply reduce the input voltage (via priprietary method) to the individual RED/ORANGE LEDs from 2.7 to 2.6... independent of input current..
This is all really good info. It is good that Cree is rating their dies at actual real world operating temps. I would say this however- it is extremely difficult to run a typical 1mm^2 power LED's above their 'real' 350mA rating. This has been a most misleading bit of 'specsmanship' by the LED makers. Using typical, good practices heatsinking, these die junctions will be running at 80 - 90C at 350mA drive. Bad, bad, bad things happen to LED dies above 90C- which is why Cree is rating at 85C- this is regardless of what the spec for the max die temp says, perhaps a temp of 145C, something like that. That is BS, and if you talk to the Cree or Bridgelux or anybody elses' engineers, they will tell you the same thing- it's the marketing knuckleheads, not the engineers, saying this crap.
Running these dies at 700mA or more , or actually anything above 350mA, is tricky business- if it was as easy simply cranking more current through the junction to get more light then life would be easy, unfortunately real world engineering is not. Extracting the heat at these drive levels becomes a big design challenge- thermal management is everything with semiconductor light sources. You are not going there with a flat aluminum sheet as on some of the LED makers light designs, at least not with an American engineer- in China it is OK. Better watch what I say- I am in China now, Chairman Mao maybe come and get me in my sleep.
Psytranceorgy
Well-Known Member
^^^^^ like
Empherio
Active Member
Argh, don't say shit like that! I'm jumping onto the led path to control heat in my tent. I'm currently using a 250w hps with a 240w HTG led in a 2X4x4. In the winter, I use hps only for the opposite reason- to create heat. They've been going for 6 weeks of flowering- 1 RockLock, 1 Sour Cream, lst'd, fucking gorgeous. Estimating about 2+oz cured per (slightly more for the SC, but the RL is super FROSTY).
Now I'm on the trigger for an Apollo 8 from Cidly to replace the hps for summer months, thanks to this awesome thread. I love the customization and the price! Here's my specs-
5 Red 660nm (90 degree)
3 Red 650-670nm (90 degree)
3 Red 620-630nm (90 degree)
1 Blue 450-470nm (120 degree)
2 Blue 420-430nm (120 degree)
1 White 6500K (120 degree)
Please don't tell me that led's have a 3 yr life! My expectation is to lose some density/weight, but the positives (or necessity) of led balance that out. As long as they aren't useless in 3 yrs!!
FranJan
Well-Known Member
Yeah I know how you feel about that statement, but they won't be worthless in three years. They just become vegging panels
. On the plus side nobody really knows when or by how much most LEDs degrade, though entropy is always in play. Buying a panel from Cidly helps protect against something like that for the non-commercial grower. I know I don't want to hear about my 3500 dollar SG1250 LED panel's output decreasing 25% in three years or something like that. But on the flip-side is that you do have to be more careful about what panel manufacturer from China you go with, since it's not like they're using the best of the best in their panels, but this thread definitely helps with making a choice. And remember the technology today will be shit in three years, so I wouldn't worry too much about how long it's going to last, just that it lasts long enough 
. And if you're looking to flower with that spectrum you should look for some of Lurker's posts, specifically about using White LEDs in place of Blue LEDs. Good Luck and Happy Growing!
Empherio
Active Member
My quote is 352 shipped- plus t/t charges for the Apollo 8 with these spectrum-
5 Red 660nm (90 degree)
3 Red 650-670nm (90 degree)
3 Red 620-630nm (90 degree)
1 Blue 450-470nm (120 degree)
2 Blue 420-430nm (120 degree)
1 White 6500K (120 degree)
That seems like a great deal for customized led power! Obviously, one could tinker with configuration forever and the modular design seems to promote even future customization. If it breaks, I'm screwed, right?
5 Red 660nm (90 degree)
3 Red 650-670nm (90 degree)
3 Red 620-630nm (90 degree)
1 Blue 450-470nm (120 degree)
2 Blue 420-430nm (120 degree)
1 White 6500K (120 degree)
That seems like a great deal for customized led power! Obviously, one could tinker with configuration forever and the modular design seems to promote even future customization. If it breaks, I'm screwed, right?
Jman305
Active Member
All of you should make grow journals. I'm thinking an 8 spot or two 6's would be rockin. Customizable spectrum is nice. I would order a half blue half white 4 spot for clones and vegging and use the two 6's or an 8 for flower. I'm between this and the chrome. There's a journal in progress on here with a BB and a Buku going and that BB is straight stacked colas of sugar coated bud and its only halfway thru flower. The customizable spectrum is a super bonus, as long as all the heatsinks are worth a damn and the diodes are being pushed at the right current for spectrum output.
Psytranceorgy
Well-Known Member
^^^ nice video... LIKE
can't wait to get my 12s
can't wait to get my 12s
HiloReign
Well-Known Member
Seems like there will be a myriad of Apollo owners! I hope to contribute as much as possible as I'll be running the smallest model (4spot). That is also a cool video, I didn't watch every last second but I was looking to see a few shots of his lights! Anywho, thanks for the link brotha.
Aloha
Aloha