Mycorrihza Myth
- Thread starter InfidelUniversity
- Start date
Buddy Hemphill
Active Member
Who's complainin?....lol.....
I'm sure you're plan works for you.
And what?
Post spore packs with higher spore counts at lower prices. Be helpful.
Since you know so much.
I'm sure you're plan works for you.
And what?
Post spore packs with higher spore counts at lower prices. Be helpful.
Since you know so much.
trichome fiend
Well-Known Member
...this is from my friend, Microbeman over on GC....he is also the author of this page ---> http://www.microbeorganics.com/#So_You_Wanna_Build_A_Compost_Tea_Brewer
I am beginning this thread in an effort to clear up some of the misconceptions which have been circulating concerning mycorrhizal fungi and to point out some facts, pertaining to its usefulness. This is done to the best of my ability and knowledge and as in all things, I can be wrong or there can be information not yet available. I am completely open to correction, input and questions.
Because this forum deals with the cultivation of Cannabis (hemp), I will refrain from spending a lot of time on mycorrhizal fungi other than endomycorrhizal. Briefly ectomycorrhizal fungi predominantly form associations with certain types of trees. An example of this is truffles which form symbiotic, mutualistic associations with trees such as Hazel Nut, Holly Oak and English Oak. In the ecto group there is a sub-group which is referred to as ectendomycorrhizal fungi. It is merely a description for fungi which displays both ecto & endo traits. [outside & inside]
Typically ectomycorrhizal fungal hyphae surround and encapsulate the roots of the plant they are colonizing and exchange nutrients by proximity, while endomycorrhizal fungal hyphae enter the cells of the roots to exchange nutrients. Fungal hyphae are microscopic strands which grow from fungal spores, hyphal complexes and mushrooms. Many of them combine to create fungal mycelia, visible to the human eye.
Two sub-groups of endomycorrhizal fungi are Arbuscular Mycorrhizal fungi (the most common and what we are concerned with here) and Ericoid Endomycorrhizal fungi. In the latter there are two additional sub-groups Arbutoid Endomycorrhizal fungi and Monotropoid Endomycorrhizal fungi. There is no current research I know of indicating that these are of value in supporting the growth of cannabis/hemp.
For those interested in exploring this further here is some excellent information compiled by a student. The biology of mycorrhizas home page
There is some research indicating that there is another type of fungi which may be mycorrhizal with plants. It is labeled dark septate endophyte(s). It is my hypothesis that some of the species of fungi imperfecti grown out of [vermi]compost into compost tea are this type of fungi but that is yet to be researched. [the term fungi imperfecti is used in this case to describe species of fungi lacking a (so far discovered) sexual stage and typical fruiting body]
The word mycorrhiza has been tossed around willy nilly and there has been enough money ass hype spewed to choke a hundred horses. Mycorrhiza is not the fungi. It is the word used to describe the symbiosis or mutualistic association between root and fungi. Mycorrhizae is plural of this. The term to describe the type of fungi itself is mycorrhizal fungi.
We all know that there is a plethora of products on the market with super attractive labeling and names. Super Ecto Screaming Eagle Myco, is fictional but representative of the crap one is confronted with. In reality if you are serious about getting endomycorrhizal fungi to colonize the roots of your plants you should know that, according to current science of which I am aware, there are only two known endomycorrhizal fungi species which colonize the roots of cannabis/hemp.
They are Glomus Intraradices and Glomus Mosseae. If you are looking for the maximum potential to colonize roots of this species, your chances go up with the higher spore/propagule count per gram. Unless you have a mix specifically formulated I know of no product which includes only these two fungal species. Because Intraradices has been shown (through studies) to be a relatively easy colonizer of most endo-type plants world wide, it is logical to consider using it as a stand alone mycorrhizal inoculant (if you live in North America), because;
1/ It is produced in North America
2/ one can get (in bulk) powder based products at a spore/propagule count of 3200 per gram 1,452,800 per pound or a liquid product at 2,000,000 spores/propagules per gram (available as agricultural products > Increase your yield with MYKE® PRO mycorrhizae ). To get Glomus Mosseae at such densities would be very challenging. [Im hoping that this will be available in smaller packages in 2012, at least higher than 200 spores/gram]
　
Your best bet to get colonization is to apply the spores to the seeds or prepared cutting and/or the roots at planting time. There are apparently some studies showing that it can take up to 6 weeks for the full benefits of infection to be measurable which has led some to conclude that endomycorrhizal fungi is not that useful in the normally fast paced growth 'pattern' of indoor grown cannabis. This is by all means not even close to being 100% factual. I have yet to satisfy myself of this issue one way or the other, having read some studies indicating early infection/colonization. [I will attempt to update the thread later if I learn something relevant to this]
The foregoing is not intended to imply that there are only two types of fungi which will ever associate with cannabis. Far from it. There are many species of mycorrhizal fungi, yet unidentified and as usual scientists are only scraping the surface in the research in this area. There may well be fungal species growing in the field behind your house which are indigenous endomycorrhizal fungi (or dark septate endophytes or ?) which may associate with cannabis/hemp just fine. What I have outlined is simply your most logical route to success if you are going to buy the spores.
The following is a post by Eco I copied from the other thread which nicely outlines the mycorrhizal species available on the market. Ive included the post which appeared prior to his as well for cohesiveness.
Quote:
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: alt2"] Posted by Ccoastal;
"That's like saying oxycodone and percocet are the same thing for having the same ingredients. It's all about the formulation. "
Posted by Eco12;
"If you're talking about mycos, it's not necessarily accurate. It really comes down to spore count (propagules in many cases here in the US), and types of mycos.
The BioAg VAM contains 7 different myco species, with g. intraradices making up the majority of it.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...3IEQOnzZr9iOTA
The RTI product (Mykos) contains glomus intraradices at 80 spores per CC.
The BioAg VAM contains 104 propagules per gram.
Got this from Dr. Mike:
Glomus mosseae
Glomus mosseae is one of the most researched and widely distributed endomycorrhizal fungi. Numerous studies have determined the importance of G. mosseae
Increased Nitrogen (N) and phosphorus (P) uptake
Enzyme activity increases access micro nutrients
Protects roots
Stimulates root development
Improved performance of woody perennials
Keeps root systems healthy
Increases fruiting and flowering
Increases crop yields
Glomus aggregatum
Studies have determined the importance of the endomycorrhizal fungus G. aggregatum:
Improves plant performance in sandy soils
Protects plant roots
Effective root colonization with time release fertilizers
Tolerant of high fertility levels
Improves performance of Palms, Fruit trees.
Glomus intraradices
Glomus intraradices is the most widespread and researched endomycorrhizal fungi. Literally thousands of studies have determined the importance of G. intraradices:
Increases nitrogen and phosphorus uptake
Increases crop yields
Protects plant roots
Can access organic forms of nitrogen and phosphorus
Improves growth and performance of turf grasses, agricultural crops and nursery stock
Improves plant resistance to a wide array of soil toxicities
Drought protection
Salt tolerance
Glomus etunicatum
Glomus etunicatum is also a widespread and well researched endomycorrhizal fungus. Numerous studies have determined the importance of G. etunicatum:
Very effective in agricultural soils
Promotes root health
Greatly improves drought tolerance
Increases mineral uptake
Effective in mine reclamation
Increases crop yields
Flowering increases
Increases enyzme activity
Improved plant establishment
Glomus deserticola
Glomus deserticola is common in semi arid and arid conditions . Studies have determined the importance of G. deserticola:
Very effective in reducing drought stress
Promotes salt tolerance
Increases P nutrition
Increases crop yields
Increases N fixation activity
Glomus clarum
Glomus clarum is distributed widely. Numerous studies have determined the importance of G. clarum:
Protects against heavy metal toxicity
Promotes salt tolerance
Increases P nutrition
Improved growth of grain crops
Increases N fixation activity
Increases crop yields
Well adapted to a wide variety of plants and soil conditions
Glomus monosporum
Glomus monosporum is widely distributed in mediterranean climates. Studies have determined the importance of G. monosporum:
Active during periods of low water availability
Promotes root rot tolerance
Increases P nutrition
Improved fruit production
Increases production of vegetable crops
Gigaspora margarita
Gigaspora margarita is common in tropical and subtropical areas. Studies have determined the importance of G. margarita:
Increases P nutrition
Improved growth of tropical and subtropical fruits
Paraglomus brasilianum
Paraglomus brasilianum is common in rehabilitation of disturbed soils. Studies have determined the importance of P. brasilianum:
Resistance to soil toxicity
Improved root enzyme activity
Enhances soil remediation
Pisolithus tinctorius
Pisolithus tinctorius is a puffball species that is widespread across an array of diverse habitats and ectomycorrhizal host plants. We use a blend of several ecotypes in our MycoApply® formulations which assures rapid mycorrhizal formations across a variety of environmental conditions. Documented benefits include:
Rapid early growth of inoculated tree species
Increases feeder root production
Tolerant of hot, dry conditions
Amelioration of heavy metal toxicity
Inhibits soil pathogen growth and plant infection
Benefits plants in disturbed environments and acid soils
Rhizopogon
Rhizopogon spp is a truffle species that has numerous special qualities important in a soil inoculation program. The Rhizopogon groups of R. villosulus, R.luteolus, R amylopogon and R fulvigleba targets a wide range of ectomycorrhizal tree and shrub species.
Promotes soil structure
Tolerant of cold soil temperatures
Tolerant of a broad pH range
High levels of enzyme activity benefiting nutrient and micronutrient acquisition
Can utilize organic forms of nitrogen
Protects seedlings against moisture stress
Promotes successful plant establishment and growth
Scleroderma
Scleroderma is a semi hypogeous genus that is widespread across an array of diverse habitats and ectomycorrhizal host plants. We use two top performing mycorrhizal formulations in our MycoApply products S.cepa and S. citrinum. Documented benefits include:
Rapid early growth of inoculated tree species
Improves N and P uptake
Increases feeder root production
Prolific rhizomorph producer improves performance in hot, dry conditions
Amelioration of heavy metal toxicity
Improves root health
Improves restoration of degraded soils
Laccaria
Laccaria is a mushroom genus that is also widespread across an array of diverse habitats and host plants. We use two top performing mycorrhizal speciess in our MycoApply products L. laccata and L. bicolor. Documented benefits include:
Improves survival and growth inoculated tree species
Improves N and P uptake
Increases feeder root production
Protects roots
Tolerant of high fertility levels
Decreases drought stress
Based on what I've found out so far (and I think I need to chat with the RTI people and also the Bio Ag folks), this is my understanding.
1. While propagules and spores are different entities, in this instance when Mycorrhizal Applications refers to propagules, they are referencing spores but must call them propagules in order to meet licensing standards in all 50 States. Dr. Mike stated that they do not count propagules that are not spores, because he agreed that they would be largely ineffective.
2. It is very difficult to compare myco products!
My OPINION:
In the case of soil biology and diversity, I feel that having additional myco species beyond just g. intraradices would be beneficial. I would like to see some evidence that these myco species are in direct competition with each other when colonizing a root hair. It seems logical to me that it's more likely the competition with be with other micro-organisms in the soil, and survival and colonization would become more successful with a diversity of myco species, as certain species would be more successful in different environmental conditions, with variables like soil temperature, existing soil biology, moisture levels, and soil structure all having some influence on colonization.
Again, the above paragraph is my OPINION. I'm more than happy to admit that I could be wrong.
Interestingly enough, I have it from a reliable source that all the g. intraradices is coming from Premier in Canada and all these companies are just repackaging and relabeling it.
All products MYKE® PRO mycorhizae
Additionally, more companies are buying from Mycorrhizal Applications and then re-labeling further and marking it up.
Piranha - Piranha Beneficial Fungi Information by Advanced Nutrients
I know for sure the guys above get their myco from Mycorrhizal Applications. (they state on the website that they make it themselves)
There's a liquid product at the first link that has significantly higher spore counts than any of the products we have been discussing.
Here's a good article on mycorrhiza:
http://www.parco1.com/text/mycorrhiz...a%20Primer.pdf "
End of Eco12s post
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Thankfully there are people like David Doudes who have outlined for growers methods of producing ones own local mycorrhizal spores/propagules. Here are some links and attached PDF.
Cultivating diversity underground for better yields above
http://www.rodaleinstitute.org/20090806/gw1
ARS Project: DEVELOPMENT OF EFFICIENT AND PRACTICAL METHODS FOR PRODUCING ARBUSCULAR MYCORRHIZAL FUNGI (410449)
Trichoderma
Another consideration if one is contemplating purchasing one of the myco-mixes on the market, is if it contains Trichoderma spores. Because Trichoderma is so much cheaper, the spore count for it in these mixes usually eclipses all the other organisms put together. Unlike endomycorrhizal fungi, Trichoderma requires no root contact to sprout and grow. In addition to this, its favorite food is ..wait for it ..wait for it .other fungi! So you guess what happens if you inoculate your roots with a mix that contains 10,000 spores per gram of Trichoderma and 100 spores per gram total of other fungal species which are slow to sprout.
In my opinion, in most cases, "Yummy" says the Trichoderma as it gobbles down the few sprouting mycorrhizal spores. But, you say, "I get such incredible results when I use Super Ecto Screaming Eagle Myco. So there!"
Well ya, Trichoderma is a great root/plant protector and there have been studies indicating that it enhances nutrient uptake. Remember the studies indicating it might take a long time for endomycorrhizal to effectively colonize roots? Maybe if you are doing a fast vegetation then kicking into flower Trichoderma is your answer. Maybe it is all that is working effectively in your Screaming Eagle stuff. Maybe it is incredibly cheap to buy elsewhere.
The screaming Eagle people will tell you; Look! Trichoderma is ubiquitous in the soil and grows naturally in conjunction with mycorrhizal spores all over the world. At 10,000 to 100? Freeze dried? Hello.
Am I trying to discourage you from attempting to colonize your cannabis roots with endomycorrhizal fungi? Totally no. I even believe I had success at this by inoculating cuttings and roots as previously mentioned but by also keeping my soil alive and undisturbed (mostly) in between crops. In this way the hyphae and spores remaining in the soil were/are there waiting for the new fresh roots. There are some who now are using companion planting or living mulch, like clover to keep live roots going in the soil at all times. Just be sure you select a plant which is mycorrhizal with the same species of fungi. Not only does this support mycorrhizal networks but keeps the microbial population buzzing along. I wish I had thought of it for my indoor plantation (long gone). I do realize this is not practical for all growers, as it calls for a fairly large volume of soil to preserve it as a living entity.
In reality it appears there are 2 to 5 labs and multiple middlemen wearing lab coats in this world getting extremely rich off everyones ignorance over the microbial craze. Wanna spot a phony? If they say they have a product with bennies, microherd or beneficial microorganisms or soluble mycorrhizae, chances are 99% they are full of it.
If they cannot describe the function of the microbes they are selling or cannot explain how nutrients are cycled, even rudimentarily, walk away (or run).
I am beginning this thread in an effort to clear up some of the misconceptions which have been circulating concerning mycorrhizal fungi and to point out some facts, pertaining to its usefulness. This is done to the best of my ability and knowledge and as in all things, I can be wrong or there can be information not yet available. I am completely open to correction, input and questions.
Because this forum deals with the cultivation of Cannabis (hemp), I will refrain from spending a lot of time on mycorrhizal fungi other than endomycorrhizal. Briefly ectomycorrhizal fungi predominantly form associations with certain types of trees. An example of this is truffles which form symbiotic, mutualistic associations with trees such as Hazel Nut, Holly Oak and English Oak. In the ecto group there is a sub-group which is referred to as ectendomycorrhizal fungi. It is merely a description for fungi which displays both ecto & endo traits. [outside & inside]
Typically ectomycorrhizal fungal hyphae surround and encapsulate the roots of the plant they are colonizing and exchange nutrients by proximity, while endomycorrhizal fungal hyphae enter the cells of the roots to exchange nutrients. Fungal hyphae are microscopic strands which grow from fungal spores, hyphal complexes and mushrooms. Many of them combine to create fungal mycelia, visible to the human eye.
Two sub-groups of endomycorrhizal fungi are Arbuscular Mycorrhizal fungi (the most common and what we are concerned with here) and Ericoid Endomycorrhizal fungi. In the latter there are two additional sub-groups Arbutoid Endomycorrhizal fungi and Monotropoid Endomycorrhizal fungi. There is no current research I know of indicating that these are of value in supporting the growth of cannabis/hemp.
For those interested in exploring this further here is some excellent information compiled by a student. The biology of mycorrhizas home page
There is some research indicating that there is another type of fungi which may be mycorrhizal with plants. It is labeled dark septate endophyte(s). It is my hypothesis that some of the species of fungi imperfecti grown out of [vermi]compost into compost tea are this type of fungi but that is yet to be researched. [the term fungi imperfecti is used in this case to describe species of fungi lacking a (so far discovered) sexual stage and typical fruiting body]
The word mycorrhiza has been tossed around willy nilly and there has been enough money ass hype spewed to choke a hundred horses. Mycorrhiza is not the fungi. It is the word used to describe the symbiosis or mutualistic association between root and fungi. Mycorrhizae is plural of this. The term to describe the type of fungi itself is mycorrhizal fungi.
We all know that there is a plethora of products on the market with super attractive labeling and names. Super Ecto Screaming Eagle Myco, is fictional but representative of the crap one is confronted with. In reality if you are serious about getting endomycorrhizal fungi to colonize the roots of your plants you should know that, according to current science of which I am aware, there are only two known endomycorrhizal fungi species which colonize the roots of cannabis/hemp.
They are Glomus Intraradices and Glomus Mosseae. If you are looking for the maximum potential to colonize roots of this species, your chances go up with the higher spore/propagule count per gram. Unless you have a mix specifically formulated I know of no product which includes only these two fungal species. Because Intraradices has been shown (through studies) to be a relatively easy colonizer of most endo-type plants world wide, it is logical to consider using it as a stand alone mycorrhizal inoculant (if you live in North America), because;
1/ It is produced in North America
2/ one can get (in bulk) powder based products at a spore/propagule count of 3200 per gram 1,452,800 per pound or a liquid product at 2,000,000 spores/propagules per gram (available as agricultural products > Increase your yield with MYKE® PRO mycorrhizae ). To get Glomus Mosseae at such densities would be very challenging. [Im hoping that this will be available in smaller packages in 2012, at least higher than 200 spores/gram]
　
Your best bet to get colonization is to apply the spores to the seeds or prepared cutting and/or the roots at planting time. There are apparently some studies showing that it can take up to 6 weeks for the full benefits of infection to be measurable which has led some to conclude that endomycorrhizal fungi is not that useful in the normally fast paced growth 'pattern' of indoor grown cannabis. This is by all means not even close to being 100% factual. I have yet to satisfy myself of this issue one way or the other, having read some studies indicating early infection/colonization. [I will attempt to update the thread later if I learn something relevant to this]
The foregoing is not intended to imply that there are only two types of fungi which will ever associate with cannabis. Far from it. There are many species of mycorrhizal fungi, yet unidentified and as usual scientists are only scraping the surface in the research in this area. There may well be fungal species growing in the field behind your house which are indigenous endomycorrhizal fungi (or dark septate endophytes or ?) which may associate with cannabis/hemp just fine. What I have outlined is simply your most logical route to success if you are going to buy the spores.
The following is a post by Eco I copied from the other thread which nicely outlines the mycorrhizal species available on the market. Ive included the post which appeared prior to his as well for cohesiveness.
Quote:
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: alt2"] Posted by Ccoastal;
"That's like saying oxycodone and percocet are the same thing for having the same ingredients. It's all about the formulation. "
Posted by Eco12;
"If you're talking about mycos, it's not necessarily accurate. It really comes down to spore count (propagules in many cases here in the US), and types of mycos.
The BioAg VAM contains 7 different myco species, with g. intraradices making up the majority of it.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...3IEQOnzZr9iOTA
The RTI product (Mykos) contains glomus intraradices at 80 spores per CC.
The BioAg VAM contains 104 propagules per gram.
Got this from Dr. Mike:
Glomus mosseae
Glomus mosseae is one of the most researched and widely distributed endomycorrhizal fungi. Numerous studies have determined the importance of G. mosseae
Increased Nitrogen (N) and phosphorus (P) uptake
Enzyme activity increases access micro nutrients
Protects roots
Stimulates root development
Improved performance of woody perennials
Keeps root systems healthy
Increases fruiting and flowering
Increases crop yields
Glomus aggregatum
Studies have determined the importance of the endomycorrhizal fungus G. aggregatum:
Improves plant performance in sandy soils
Protects plant roots
Effective root colonization with time release fertilizers
Tolerant of high fertility levels
Improves performance of Palms, Fruit trees.
Glomus intraradices
Glomus intraradices is the most widespread and researched endomycorrhizal fungi. Literally thousands of studies have determined the importance of G. intraradices:
Increases nitrogen and phosphorus uptake
Increases crop yields
Protects plant roots
Can access organic forms of nitrogen and phosphorus
Improves growth and performance of turf grasses, agricultural crops and nursery stock
Improves plant resistance to a wide array of soil toxicities
Drought protection
Salt tolerance
Glomus etunicatum
Glomus etunicatum is also a widespread and well researched endomycorrhizal fungus. Numerous studies have determined the importance of G. etunicatum:
Very effective in agricultural soils
Promotes root health
Greatly improves drought tolerance
Increases mineral uptake
Effective in mine reclamation
Increases crop yields
Flowering increases
Increases enyzme activity
Improved plant establishment
Glomus deserticola
Glomus deserticola is common in semi arid and arid conditions . Studies have determined the importance of G. deserticola:
Very effective in reducing drought stress
Promotes salt tolerance
Increases P nutrition
Increases crop yields
Increases N fixation activity
Glomus clarum
Glomus clarum is distributed widely. Numerous studies have determined the importance of G. clarum:
Protects against heavy metal toxicity
Promotes salt tolerance
Increases P nutrition
Improved growth of grain crops
Increases N fixation activity
Increases crop yields
Well adapted to a wide variety of plants and soil conditions
Glomus monosporum
Glomus monosporum is widely distributed in mediterranean climates. Studies have determined the importance of G. monosporum:
Active during periods of low water availability
Promotes root rot tolerance
Increases P nutrition
Improved fruit production
Increases production of vegetable crops
Gigaspora margarita
Gigaspora margarita is common in tropical and subtropical areas. Studies have determined the importance of G. margarita:
Increases P nutrition
Improved growth of tropical and subtropical fruits
Paraglomus brasilianum
Paraglomus brasilianum is common in rehabilitation of disturbed soils. Studies have determined the importance of P. brasilianum:
Resistance to soil toxicity
Improved root enzyme activity
Enhances soil remediation
Pisolithus tinctorius
Pisolithus tinctorius is a puffball species that is widespread across an array of diverse habitats and ectomycorrhizal host plants. We use a blend of several ecotypes in our MycoApply® formulations which assures rapid mycorrhizal formations across a variety of environmental conditions. Documented benefits include:
Rapid early growth of inoculated tree species
Increases feeder root production
Tolerant of hot, dry conditions
Amelioration of heavy metal toxicity
Inhibits soil pathogen growth and plant infection
Benefits plants in disturbed environments and acid soils
Rhizopogon
Rhizopogon spp is a truffle species that has numerous special qualities important in a soil inoculation program. The Rhizopogon groups of R. villosulus, R.luteolus, R amylopogon and R fulvigleba targets a wide range of ectomycorrhizal tree and shrub species.
Promotes soil structure
Tolerant of cold soil temperatures
Tolerant of a broad pH range
High levels of enzyme activity benefiting nutrient and micronutrient acquisition
Can utilize organic forms of nitrogen
Protects seedlings against moisture stress
Promotes successful plant establishment and growth
Scleroderma
Scleroderma is a semi hypogeous genus that is widespread across an array of diverse habitats and ectomycorrhizal host plants. We use two top performing mycorrhizal formulations in our MycoApply products S.cepa and S. citrinum. Documented benefits include:
Rapid early growth of inoculated tree species
Improves N and P uptake
Increases feeder root production
Prolific rhizomorph producer improves performance in hot, dry conditions
Amelioration of heavy metal toxicity
Improves root health
Improves restoration of degraded soils
Laccaria
Laccaria is a mushroom genus that is also widespread across an array of diverse habitats and host plants. We use two top performing mycorrhizal speciess in our MycoApply products L. laccata and L. bicolor. Documented benefits include:
Improves survival and growth inoculated tree species
Improves N and P uptake
Increases feeder root production
Protects roots
Tolerant of high fertility levels
Decreases drought stress
Based on what I've found out so far (and I think I need to chat with the RTI people and also the Bio Ag folks), this is my understanding.
1. While propagules and spores are different entities, in this instance when Mycorrhizal Applications refers to propagules, they are referencing spores but must call them propagules in order to meet licensing standards in all 50 States. Dr. Mike stated that they do not count propagules that are not spores, because he agreed that they would be largely ineffective.
2. It is very difficult to compare myco products!
My OPINION:
In the case of soil biology and diversity, I feel that having additional myco species beyond just g. intraradices would be beneficial. I would like to see some evidence that these myco species are in direct competition with each other when colonizing a root hair. It seems logical to me that it's more likely the competition with be with other micro-organisms in the soil, and survival and colonization would become more successful with a diversity of myco species, as certain species would be more successful in different environmental conditions, with variables like soil temperature, existing soil biology, moisture levels, and soil structure all having some influence on colonization.
Again, the above paragraph is my OPINION. I'm more than happy to admit that I could be wrong.
Interestingly enough, I have it from a reliable source that all the g. intraradices is coming from Premier in Canada and all these companies are just repackaging and relabeling it.
All products MYKE® PRO mycorhizae
Additionally, more companies are buying from Mycorrhizal Applications and then re-labeling further and marking it up.
Piranha - Piranha Beneficial Fungi Information by Advanced Nutrients
I know for sure the guys above get their myco from Mycorrhizal Applications. (they state on the website that they make it themselves)
There's a liquid product at the first link that has significantly higher spore counts than any of the products we have been discussing.
Here's a good article on mycorrhiza:
http://www.parco1.com/text/mycorrhiz...a%20Primer.pdf "
End of Eco12s post
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Thankfully there are people like David Doudes who have outlined for growers methods of producing ones own local mycorrhizal spores/propagules. Here are some links and attached PDF.
Cultivating diversity underground for better yields above
http://www.rodaleinstitute.org/20090806/gw1
ARS Project: DEVELOPMENT OF EFFICIENT AND PRACTICAL METHODS FOR PRODUCING ARBUSCULAR MYCORRHIZAL FUNGI (410449)
Trichoderma
Another consideration if one is contemplating purchasing one of the myco-mixes on the market, is if it contains Trichoderma spores. Because Trichoderma is so much cheaper, the spore count for it in these mixes usually eclipses all the other organisms put together. Unlike endomycorrhizal fungi, Trichoderma requires no root contact to sprout and grow. In addition to this, its favorite food is ..wait for it ..wait for it .other fungi! So you guess what happens if you inoculate your roots with a mix that contains 10,000 spores per gram of Trichoderma and 100 spores per gram total of other fungal species which are slow to sprout.
In my opinion, in most cases, "Yummy" says the Trichoderma as it gobbles down the few sprouting mycorrhizal spores. But, you say, "I get such incredible results when I use Super Ecto Screaming Eagle Myco. So there!"
Well ya, Trichoderma is a great root/plant protector and there have been studies indicating that it enhances nutrient uptake. Remember the studies indicating it might take a long time for endomycorrhizal to effectively colonize roots? Maybe if you are doing a fast vegetation then kicking into flower Trichoderma is your answer. Maybe it is all that is working effectively in your Screaming Eagle stuff. Maybe it is incredibly cheap to buy elsewhere.
The screaming Eagle people will tell you; Look! Trichoderma is ubiquitous in the soil and grows naturally in conjunction with mycorrhizal spores all over the world. At 10,000 to 100? Freeze dried? Hello.
Am I trying to discourage you from attempting to colonize your cannabis roots with endomycorrhizal fungi? Totally no. I even believe I had success at this by inoculating cuttings and roots as previously mentioned but by also keeping my soil alive and undisturbed (mostly) in between crops. In this way the hyphae and spores remaining in the soil were/are there waiting for the new fresh roots. There are some who now are using companion planting or living mulch, like clover to keep live roots going in the soil at all times. Just be sure you select a plant which is mycorrhizal with the same species of fungi. Not only does this support mycorrhizal networks but keeps the microbial population buzzing along. I wish I had thought of it for my indoor plantation (long gone). I do realize this is not practical for all growers, as it calls for a fairly large volume of soil to preserve it as a living entity.
In reality it appears there are 2 to 5 labs and multiple middlemen wearing lab coats in this world getting extremely rich off everyones ignorance over the microbial craze. Wanna spot a phony? If they say they have a product with bennies, microherd or beneficial microorganisms or soluble mycorrhizae, chances are 99% they are full of it.
If they cannot describe the function of the microbes they are selling or cannot explain how nutrients are cycled, even rudimentarily, walk away (or run).
I read a article about this and it said that endo and ecto are great but get killed when we use high P. Says ya need to take leap of faith and the fungi finish the plant.
I doing this now, got a bunch that have not been hit with any high P and I'm gonna just continue to feed the fungi and let them finish on there own..
I doing this now, got a bunch that have not been hit with any high P and I'm gonna just continue to feed the fungi and let them finish on there own..
InfidelUniversity
Active Member
Sweet, did not know Microb had a page. TY.....................You hear any word on Myke releasing a mosseae strains?.....
Sounds like a fun experiment, plants dont need a lot of phosphates anyways, phosphate products bring in heavy metals and other unhealthy crap......Myco role in field applications is were it shines, lower fertilizer and water use is key for our planet. For us maybe it makes us healtier!
vvvvvvquotevvvvvv http://www.integralhydro.com/advancednutrients.html
Here’s a couple more examples of organic guano products that are sold in the US.
BAT GUANO 0-7-0
Arsenic 11.7000
Cadmium 7.6000mg/kg
Cobalt 12.6000
Zinc 1637.0000
Lead 1.2000
BAT GUANO NATURAL ORGANIC PHOSPHATE FERTILIZER 0-7-0
Arsenic 13.3000
Cadmium 10.0000mg/kg
Lead 1.2000
Selenium 5.5000
Author’s note: Heavy metal contaminants in organic fertilizers become more problematic when you consider that kelp and other organic components used in formulation (e.g. fish by-product) contain high levels of Cd. Burger J et al, studied Alaria nana kelp in Alaskan waters and found it contained high levels of cadmium, lead and selenium.(
Research investigating heavy metals in aquatic food chains has yielded similar findings.(9)Other Heavy Metal Contaminants
Arsenic (As)
The chemistry of arsenic leads to multiple chemical species that differ in
toxicity. (10)
Arsenic uptake and translocation occurs more readily in high phosphorous environments.(11) However, research conducted in 2001 – 2002 indicates LOW arsenic uptake by Cannabis sativa in both hydroponic and soil settings (tissue analysis equals <0.1mg/kg As in all instances).
One issue frequently overlooked by organic enthusiasts is the prevalence of excess arsenic, lead, cadmium, nickel, mercury, copper, and zinc in organic soil. Soil ecologists and environmentalists—and, to some extent, the concerned public—have known for more than a century that the synthetic pesticides of conventional farming leave heavy metals in the ground but the fact that you'll find the same toxins in organic soil and composts has been largely obscured from the public.
Organic Phosphate Sources
Let’s have a look at an organic phosphate (phosphorous) source and compare the Cd numbers against non-organic fertilizers. .
Bat Guano
TYPICAL ANALYSIS
Civa mg/kg 4, 8
Lead mg/kg 39, 6
Chromium mg/kg 29, 1
Zinc mg/kg 255, 1
Nickel mg/kg 26, 2
Cadmium mg/kg 3
Copper mg/kg 979, 8
Total phosphorus g/kg 5
Total nitrogen % 8, 1
Total organic Matter % 64, 7
Salinity % 0, 35
Electrical conductivity mS/cm 13, 8
Humidity % 8, 7
pH - 2, 09
Looking at this analysis we have 3mg/kg of Cd (vey low by guano standards) – which puts us on track with non-organic sources of phosphate fertilizers – or at least at first glance. However, our non-organic phosphate fertilizer has 51.5% (515g/kg) elemental P while our organic phosphate fertilizer has 5% (50g/kg) of elemental P so to achieve the same levels of P in NPK %w/v we are adding much higher levels of cadmium to an organic liquid fertilizer. For instance, to achieve a 1%w/v target in a fertilizer concentrate we would use 19.4g/L of our Australian MKP product or 200g/L of bat guano giving us 10.3 times the amount of Cd in the organic solution. When you compare the numbers (the chemistry of organic vs. non-organic) things become much clearer…
Here’s
VVVVVVVVVVVVVVV OUTDOOR SOIL VS. INDOOR HDRO VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV
Extracted from Medical Uses of Cannabis by Andrew Kavasilas (2003)
[TD="class: style1"][/TD]
[TD="class: style1, colspan: 3"]Grown Outdoors in Soil
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1"][/TD]
[TD="class: style1, colspan: 3"] Indoors Hydroponically
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1"][/TD]
[TD="class: style1"] Durban
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 63"] Afghan
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 61"] Skunk x
Northern Lights
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1"][/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 50"] SA Commercial
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 50"] NSW
Commercial
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 64"] Home Grown
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 97"]Silver (mg/Kg )
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 34"]<0.1
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 63"]<0.1
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 61"]0.00
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1"][/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 50"]<0.1
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 50"]<0.1
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 64"]<0.1
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 97"]Arsenic (mg/Kg )
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 34"]<0.1
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 63"]<0.1
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 61"]<0.1
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1"][/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 50"]<0.1
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 50"]<0.1
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 64"]<0.1
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 97"]Lead (mg/Kg )
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 34"]1.10
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 63"]<0.1
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 61"]<0.1
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1"][/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 50"]1.10
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 50"]<0.1
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 64"]1.40
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 97"]Cadmium (mg/Kg )
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 34"]<0.1
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 63"]<0.1
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 61"]<0.1
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1"][/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 50"]<0.1
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 50"]<0.1
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 64"]3.70
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 97"]Chromium (mg/Kg )
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 34"]4.10
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 63"]4.30
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 61"]2.40
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1"][/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 50"]3.60
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 50"]3.60
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 64"]9.20
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 97"]Mercury (mg/Kg )
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 34"]<0.1
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 63"]<0.1
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 61"]<0.1
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1"][/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 50"]<0.1
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 50"]<0.1
[/TD]
[TD="class: style1, width: 64"]<0.1
[/TD]
Rrog
Well-Known Member
From Trich Fiend's excellent post above: "Your best bet to get colonization is to apply the spores to the seeds or prepared cutting and/or the roots at planting time. There are apparently some studies showing that it can take up to 6 weeks for the full benefits of infection to be measurable "
Again this points out the goal of the No-Till soil method. Take full advantage of the fact that the complex web takes time to really establish. This is why second and third generation soil grows (assuming properly amended) will be quite superior to the first. The answer is not spore count, as these things will replicate like crazy IF the MJ plant wants them around. What is needed is time to let the colonies grow and NOT disturb the soil between grows and keep some sort of plant growing at all times. Could b a new MJ plant or a companion plant like clover.
Again this points out the goal of the No-Till soil method. Take full advantage of the fact that the complex web takes time to really establish. This is why second and third generation soil grows (assuming properly amended) will be quite superior to the first. The answer is not spore count, as these things will replicate like crazy IF the MJ plant wants them around. What is needed is time to let the colonies grow and NOT disturb the soil between grows and keep some sort of plant growing at all times. Could b a new MJ plant or a companion plant like clover.
Buddy Hemphill
Active Member
Whats the point of this thread?
Not to use myco's in pots because they dont help?
A successfull soil food web takes 2-3 runs of no-till soil?
I'm cornfused.
Not to use myco's in pots because they dont help?
A successfull soil food web takes 2-3 runs of no-till soil?
I'm cornfused.
Rrog
Well-Known Member
If using a natural soil, don't worry about adding P.
If you add a lot of P, certain Fungi will shut down
The soil web gets better with age. Amend from the top with compost, EWC, teas, etc. Don't till the soil and destroy the fungus. Don't spend your afternoon counting spores.
Save some money on growing and quit buying so many pretty bottles
If you add a lot of P, certain Fungi will shut down
The soil web gets better with age. Amend from the top with compost, EWC, teas, etc. Don't till the soil and destroy the fungus. Don't spend your afternoon counting spores.
Save some money on growing and quit buying so many pretty bottles
trichome fiend
Well-Known Member
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Rrog again.
Ya no till? How do we get a successful cannabis soil food web to be alive and active indoors, in pots. Super soil obviously works, but Soma, in his book organic marijuana soma style he has 4x4 beds he has designed. He fills the beds with rooted clones..... Above someone mentioned cutting you plant down and sticking another on in, this makes sense to me, especially with the no till concept.... Is a cannabis soil food web efficient for indoor growers? Or is it for outdoors?
The idea of mixing up a batch of soil, and letting it cook, to come alive -- I get it, but how does keeping it alive come into play? We are talking about some serious planning, to mix soil, let cook, mix in beds, or pots, and start a clover patch on top, wait for a while to get everything working with your companion plant, and then introduce you cannabis plant, once the plant is finished, adding Another plant, and so on......Here is the problem for me, when is soil beat? When do u decide to start over, or should u ever start over? Just keep adding ewc and amending with tea to keep it going? I think of this thing...http://www.hammacher.com/Product/17495?promo=search.... Has nothing to do with my but use your imagination.
The idea of mixing up a batch of soil, and letting it cook, to come alive -- I get it, but how does keeping it alive come into play? We are talking about some serious planning, to mix soil, let cook, mix in beds, or pots, and start a clover patch on top, wait for a while to get everything working with your companion plant, and then introduce you cannabis plant, once the plant is finished, adding Another plant, and so on......Here is the problem for me, when is soil beat? When do u decide to start over, or should u ever start over? Just keep adding ewc and amending with tea to keep it going? I think of this thing...http://www.hammacher.com/Product/17495?promo=search.... Has nothing to do with my but use your imagination.
Rrog
Well-Known Member
Many amendments are just starting to break down when we harvest the plant. There's still plenty left. And the Compost, EWC, Teas, etc replenish the soil, whether in pails or outside. There are some epic no-till threads out there where guys are growing 12-13 generations of plants in the same soil. Never tilled. Plants look perfect.
I would really hope that the potential low cost of no-till soil would propel this simple method. I get annoyed with guys feeling they have to spend thousands on commercial fertilizers
I would really hope that the potential low cost of no-till soil would propel this simple method. I get annoyed with guys feeling they have to spend thousands on commercial fertilizers
| MYKE[SUP]®[/SUP] PRO POTATO • L | ||||
| Quick Links MSDS Where to buy Mycorrhizae Results on mycorrhizae Compatibility pesticides-mycorrhizae | ||||
| ||||
[TD="align: right"]
[/TD][TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]MYKE[SUP]®[/SUP] PRO POTATO • L has been specially developed for potato production. This product is adapted to the equipment used and allows for a uniform distribution during the moistening of seed pieces or when it is applied in the furrow.
[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]DIRECTIONS FOR USE:[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Seed piece treatment:
In a clean tank, pour the contents of a 3.8 L bottle in the volume of water required to treat the amount of seed pieces for 4 hectares (10 acres) of seedbed (around 150 000 seed pieces). Maintain under light agitation. Spray directly on the seed pieces before adding other products. [/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Application in the furrow at planting:
In the sprayer’s tank, pour the contents of a 3.8 L bottle in the volume of water required to treat 4 hectares (10 acres) of seedbed. Refer to the chart. Maintain under light agitation during the application. Spray directly on seed pieces into the furrow.[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]
[TD="class: TableauRequiredQuantityEnteteAG, colspan: 4"] Volume of water to add in the spayer's tank according to the flow rate needed
(per bottle of MYKE[SUP]®[/SUP] PRO POTATO • L)[/TD]
[TD="class: TableauRequiredQuantityEnteteAG"] FLOW RATE[/TD]
[TD="class: TableauRequiredQuantityEnteteAG"] WATER[/TD]
[TD="class: TableauRequiredQuantityEnteteAG"] FLOW RATE[/TD]
[TD="class: TableauRequiredQuantityEnteteAG"] WATER[/TD]
[TD="class: TableauRequiredQuantityEnteteAG"] (l/ha)[/TD]
[TD="class: TableauRequiredQuantityEnteteAG"] (l)[/TD]
[TD="class: TableauRequiredQuantityEnteteAG"] (gal/ac)[/TD]
[TD="class: TableauRequiredQuantityEnteteAG"] (gal)[/TD]
[TD="class: padding7, align: center"] 47[/TD]
[TD="class: padding7, align: center"] 190[/TD]
[TD="class: padding7, align: center"] 5[/TD]
[TD="class: padding7, align: center"] 50[/TD]
[TD="class: padding7, align: center"] 57[/TD]
[TD="class: padding7, align: center"] 230[/TD]
[TD="class: padding7, align: center"] 6[/TD]
[TD="class: padding7, align: center"] 60[/TD]
[TD="class: padding7, align: center"] 66[/TD]
[TD="class: padding7, align: center"] 265[/TD]
[TD="class: padding7, align: center"] 7[/TD]
[TD="class: padding7, align: center"] 70[/TD]
[TD="class: padding7, align: center"] 76[/TD]
[TD="class: padding7, align: center"] 300[/TD]
[TD="class: padding7, align: center"] 8[/TD]
[TD="class: padding7, align: center"] 80[/TD]
[TD="class: padding7, align: center"] 85[/TD]
[TD="class: padding7, align: center"] 340[/TD]
[TD="class: padding7, align: center"] 9[/TD]
[TD="class: padding7, align: center"] 90[/TD]
[TD="class: padding7, align: center"] 95[/TD]
[TD="class: padding7, align: center"] 380[/TD]
[TD="class: padding7, align: center"] 10[/TD]
[TD="class: padding7, align: center"] 100[/TD]
| Glomus intraradices | 2 000 000 |
[TD="colspan: 2"]ACTIVE INGREDIENT:[/TD]
[TD="class: TableauIngredientActif"] ENDOMYCORRHIZAL (AM) FUNGI [/TD]
[TD="class: TableauIngredientActif"](spores/l)[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]
Ok i'm a little confused with these flow rates. should I be concerned?
I mean I make teas would I just add these to the tea and serve to the MJ?
Or do i have to "Flow the water correctly to get results.
InfidelUniversity
Active Member
Hemlock- thats some pretty strong shit. It's about 2,000 spore per gram/ml. Watered down 40/1 is now about the strength of most straight myco products on the home gardner market...My orca bottle has 80spores per/ml and they claim 5ml treats 10gallons. ( thats 400spores in 10gallons of water)..........personaly I like sprinkling Xtreme G. mycos on a wet transplant pulled out of its pot/plug as i rotate it. With a 80spore/cc you would get an easy 400spores on that transplant with spore directly touching roots 360 deg. around the rootball...
Don't add myco to teas, if you do, do it after the brew cycle, they will do nothing in the teas and could even be damaged. Liquid products are kind of a pain to work with and I wouldn't top water with. With liquid i would inject in root zone or squirt roots during planting and transplanting......Myke's is big ag scale company, they (may)not sell to us!?! Don't know, but their real strong products wont be cheap.
Don't add myco to teas, if you do, do it after the brew cycle, they will do nothing in the teas and could even be damaged. Liquid products are kind of a pain to work with and I wouldn't top water with. With liquid i would inject in root zone or squirt roots during planting and transplanting......Myke's is big ag scale company, they (may)not sell to us!?! Don't know, but their real strong products wont be cheap.
InfidelUniversity
Active Member
Yes, it must be nice to grow cannabis outside, most people don't have that option and some don't like outdoor bud. Yes you can reuse indoor mixes but not viable to grow in a big trash can thats big enough to have ilttle disturbance when yanking ur plant.
They are very expensive plants, people will spend the money, it's not like it's a tomato....................
InfidelUniversity
Active Member
Rootbound pots may not be worth the time if it's really bound. I reuse what I can, if I can, unless I had bug or virus issues......
ECHydroceuticals
Member
http://nature.berkeley.edu/brunslab/mycorrhizal/papers/reynolds2006.pdf
http://bashanfoundation.org/gmaweb/pdfs/inoculants.pdf
http://www.parco1.com/text/mycorrhiza/Mycorrhiza Primer.pdf
http://www.ajol.info/index.php/ajb/article/viewFile/59391/47688
http://www.fsl.orst.edu/~bond/fs561...root exudates in rhizosphere interactions.pdf
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.23...2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=47698913720077
http://www.manicbotanix.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=22&Itemid=14
http://bashanfoundation.org/gmaweb/pdfs/inoculants.pdf
http://www.parco1.com/text/mycorrhiza/Mycorrhiza Primer.pdf
http://www.ajol.info/index.php/ajb/article/viewFile/59391/47688
http://www.fsl.orst.edu/~bond/fs561...root exudates in rhizosphere interactions.pdf
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.23...2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=47698913720077
http://www.manicbotanix.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=22&Itemid=14
ECHydroceuticals
Member
I have to give credit to DizzleKush and Glow. I'm pretty sure they sent me the PDFs above...I'm not sure...it was a long time ago. IDK if they're members here, but they're both knowledgeable growers that contribute to other sites...Glow...G. Low...wrote Integral Hydroponics and owns Manic Botanix...DizzleKush is just a smart dude...young, but knows his stuff. I have a few other PDFs, but google sketches out when I try to open the links...I'll try to figure it out...
Rrog
Well-Known Member
Infidel, I grow indoors and all of the No-Till grows I've read are inside also.
The re-used soil pots are 5 and 7 gallon pails.
There is no pulling of the root ball. It is left in place and eaten by the microlife in short order. Live roots are tended to. Dead roots are consumed.
The re-used soil pots are 5 and 7 gallon pails.
There is no pulling of the root ball. It is left in place and eaten by the microlife in short order. Live roots are tended to. Dead roots are consumed.
