Mixing your own nutrient solutions in Canada

[LearyRed]

So I have been trying to mix my own nutrients straight from the mineral salts. I have already amassed quite the collection of information from just around the forums. I just keep running into the same problem though when trying to decide on a recipe to use.

Well use any damn recipe you say. Ya I would but our great overlord and master Stephen Harper decided to ban a few things in 2008.

Ammonium Nitrate
H2O2 above 30%
Nitric Acid at a concentration of 68% or higher
Potassium Nitrate (salt peter)
Sodium Nitrate

The local hydroponic store says they can't find a supplier for either 30% H2O2, or Nitric Acid at any percentage.

The only way to get these chemicals now is to basically apply to the government, and they'll let you purchase some, but they "track your identity" for a year.
I'm alright on that thanks, big brother can go watch someone else.

So any of you chemists out there. What are the chemicals you'd use as a work around for Ammonium Nitrate, Potassium Nitrate, and Sodium Nitrate and Nitric Acid?

For Example This is Fatmans Veg Formula.

Ounces


Part A


Calcium Nitrate 91.5
Potassium Nitrate 17.4 <-illegal
Iron Chelate 7.14


Part B


Potassium Nitrate 17.4 <-illegal
MonoPotassium Phosphate 27.3
Magnesium Sulfate 66.4
Manganese Sulfate 1.423
Boric Acid / Solubor 1.944
Zinc Sulfate 1.542
Copper Sulfate .311
Ammonium Molybdate .013


Volume of Stock Solutions
5.3 gallons
Dilution Rate 100
EC 2.75
pH 5.8
TDS 1925



Any easy substitutions you could use for this?

Canadian growers thank you in advance!

 

[batf1nk]

Cant help with your sourcing issues im afraid as I only make up my booster. For that I only need Mono-Potassium Phosphate and Potassium Sulphate which I use a formula to replicate AN Hammerhead PK 9/18 (which is not available anymore). I only make the booster for the reason's you outline, unable to source the exact salts I need to make all my nutrients. I gave up in the end and decided the price for base nutrients is worth paying for if I don't have to look like a terrorist trying to source salts.

 

[LearyRed]

Well ordering from online can help you fill it in, and they won't track you if it isn't an illegal substance.

And the price for base nutrients is not worth it.

For instance. One formula called for 535g of calcium nitrate. A 50pound bag is $30. It is enough for 41 mixes of 4L solution at 10ml a L, or 400L of water.
Actually so far all my chemical costs have come to around $300, with the limiting bag being the calcium nitrate at 41 mixes. Some allow me to make 60-100 mixes off one purchase.

But we'll stick to the 41 for ease of understanding in this part.
Now premixed costs me around $30 for the 2 bottles I use. These make up roughly 150L
So 41 x $30 = $1230 BUT this only makes 41 x 150L not 41 x 400L

41 x 150L = 6150L at $1230 \
> Still Worth It?
41 x 400L = 16400L at $300 /

And keep in mind that this 41 is the limiting number, as most mix much more than 41, I'd basically only be stuck paying another $30 for another 50pound bag. So for about $330 I get 80mixes.

 

[batf1nk]

Dude I'm in no means saying its cheaper to get my base nutrients that would be a mad statement, I said its EASIER for me to buy them. I live in a big brother country mate and there is no solid way I can get all the ingredients in quantity's I want. My base nutrients are cheap and do the job great and last me a long time. I make up the flowering boosters which are silly money that im not prepared to pay for a funky picture on a bottle.

I'm sure I CAN source all the salts I need, but kind of defeats the objective of being stealth about the grow etc.

Good luck with the hunt...

 

[LearyRed]

Ya but the legal fertilizers are just that legal. I can order them online without any worries. The only ones that can't be ordered are the illegal and explosive ones.

Also a tip for you. Pay as you go credit card, order it all to a buddies place, suspicionless.

Anyway I could get premixed bottles easy enough, but those are worthless to me.

So I'll continue to hunt for a good recipe.

Anyone else have any ideas about what to use for this?

 

[zem]

Leary I think you have things a little mixed up, if you intend to make a soil fertilizer, then you don't use H2O2 at all and if you intend to make a hydroponic formula, you don't use Ammonia. I do hydro formula, components that I use are: Calcium Nitrate, Potassium Nitrate, Mono-Potassium phosphate, Magnesium sulfate, trace element mixture, phosphoric acid and H2O2 35%. I found all fertilizers in a big agriculture supplier, look for the companies who sell bulk for big farmers, they usually are found in industrial zones and offices, not in shops. H2O2 and phosphoric acid I got them from a supplier of raw chemicals who sells primarily for detergents factories. I bought 1 bag 25Kg from each fertilizer so it didn't even require me to fill any information. I was only asked about the reason for purchasing H2O2 I said it is for cleaning big water reservoirs.

 

[scroglodyte]

poisons. i don't even handle them. watch that saltpeter. the little lady will be disappointed.
go organic!

 

[LearyRed]

poisons. i don't even handle them. watch that saltpeter. the little lady will be disappointed.
go organic!

You have no idea what you're talking about. Which is why you don't know how to handle them, also it's illegal here, as I WROTE IN THE POST so I can't handle it anyway.

Good luck with your organic garbage, I'm sure it will be the best.

Also @ Zem, where did you get ammonia from? And H2O2 was just added into the illegalities section, as I like to have more information, and maybe someone has a way around it.

Otherwise H2O2 is ineffectively added into a reservoir to sterilize it which causes a storm of bacterial corpses, which is dead organic material in the water, which is food, which is an instant problem. So I don't really use H2O2 anyway, but thanks for at least adding in.

I guess I should mention I have a basic understanding of chemistry, which on this forum means I have an advanced understanding of chemistry.

Anyone else have anything to add? Preferably not about organics as it's a fad, and crap, and appeals to stupid people who don't want to think.

 

[zem]

You have no idea what you're talking about. Which is why you don't know how to handle them, also it's illegal here, as I WROTE IN THE POST so I can't handle it anyway.

Good luck with your organic garbage, I'm sure it will be the best.

Also @ Zem, where did you get ammonia from? And H2O2 was just added into the illegalities section, as I like to have more information, and maybe someone has a way around it.

Otherwise H2O2 is ineffectively added into a reservoir to sterilize it which causes a storm of bacterial corpses, which is dead organic material in the water, which is food, which is an instant problem. So I don't really use H2O2 anyway, but thanks for at least adding in.

I guess I should mention I have a basic understanding of chemistry, which on this forum means I have an advanced understanding of chemistry.

Anyone else have anything to add? Preferably not about organics as it's a fad, and crap, and appeals to stupid people who don't want to think.

LOL the organics evangelists are everywhere telling people that it is somehow healthier without real scientific reasoning... wasn't the latest e coli epidemic caused by organic crap used on cucumbers? LOL
Leary not many people use this type of feeding because it requires more knowledge. I only told you what I use after my research. H2O2 I use it in small doses to kill the larvae and it is very effective, when overdone, you are right, it causes the water to become murky from dead bacteria, but in my hydro, it is indispensable, I also use it for cleaning and sterilizing everything in the room. As for the illegal chemicals, I guess that they will be rather controlled not illegal, they would sell a small quantity without raising questions. for your trace elements mix, you can just get it premixed because some elements in it you only need small quantity, it will be more costly to buy in parts let alone the complication of measuring small quantities of powder at every feeding, I found them in a 2Kg premixed package. My recipe is working perfectly, you can get other chemicals to make it more controllable for instance, you can get magnesium nitrate which will enable you to add magnesium and nitrogen without the sulfur in the magnesium sulfate and you can also get triple super phosphate which contains calcium and phosphate and enables you to add calcium without having to add any nitrogen. I hope this helps

 

[JayBio420]

Salt Peter is nOt illegal. I bought two pounds for my aquarium from he USA, no border issues. Search for aquarium fertilizer google.


Ammonium nitrate is the powder Pack in Instant Cold packs for first aid.

 

[LearyRed]

Salt Peter is nOt illegal. I bought two pounds for my aquarium from he USA, no border issues. Search for aquarium fertilizer google.


Ammonium nitrate is the powder Pack in Instant Cold packs for first aid.

Salt peter, or potassium nitrate, is an illegal explosive in Canada.

http://www.gazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p2/2008/2008-03-19/html/sor-dors47-eng.html

Not going to argue with anyone any further about this. It's restricted, buying any amount requires you to fill out a form, at which point they track your identity and try to determine if you are a terrorist. Thanks, but no.

If you bought this from the USA you raised flags, and they are keeping an eye on you. I'd steer clear of buying any other illegal chemicals for awhile.


@ Zem, no it's not cheaper to buy anything premixed, period.
Also why the fuck would I mix it out every feeding? I'm mixing up 100x 1gallon jugs. Or 100gallons worth at a time.
I can also sell it to friends, because I'm smart enough to make this shit.
And with triple superphosphate you are trying to add in more phosphorous, not more calcium.
Calcium and sodium are ever present in water, and are the slowest to be taken up by plant roots, because very little is needed. As evaporation occurs, and leeching up of the nutrients by the roots, the water quickly becomes saturated with calcium and sodium to toxic levels. So you really want to keep as little calcium or sodium in your mix as possible.

So anyone else? Any info? Impart some wisdom upon this humble forum?

 

[LearyRed]

Well for the sake of dialogue here is an answer to my question.

This is off of Fatmans posts that are kicking around from before he got banned (for being an asshole apparently, never talked to him myself)

Lucas Formula Recipe from Scratch "Really"
This is based upon an analysis of bottled GH micro and bloom combined on a 1 to 2 , so: N=5, P=10, K=9 and M=3
i.e the Lucas Formula
Amounts are in Ounces: Final ppm each nutrient: N=176, P=133, K=300, M=100, Calcium=166
Part A.
Calcium Nitrate 75.3
Iron Chelate 2.25


Part B.
Mono Potassium Phosphate 104.8
Magnesium Sulfate 67.4


Trace Part B.
Manganese Sulfate 0.448
Boric Acid 0.085
Zinc Sulfate 0.009
Copper Sulfate 0.003
Ammonium Molybdate 0.0014
This recipe is for a x100 concentrate. That means a combination of 2.5 gallons of Part A. And 2.5 gallons of Part B to which the trace nutrients are added. With all mixed to gether in a dry mix you have the dry mix equivalent of Floro Nova Bloom without the added humus.
This should cost about $35 to mix up. ie about $7 per gallon.
Based upon the most recent analysis of Floramicro and Flora Bloom this is the corrected formula for the Luca Method:


ppm concentrations at a 1:100 dilution


Nitrogen 167
Phosphorus 333
Potassium 397
Magnesium 100
Calcium 215
Sulfur 133
Iron 3.33
Manganese 1.67
Boron 1.67
Zinc 1.00
Copper .33
Molybdenum .03
Ounces


PART A
Calcium Nitrate 14.2
Iron Chelate .45
Ounces


Part B
MonoPotassium Phosphate 21.0
Magnesium Sulfate 13.5
Manganese Sulfate .090
Boric Acid / Solubor.123
Zinc Sulfate .058
Copper Sulfate .020
Ammonium Molybdate .001
Volume of Stock Solutions 1/2 gallon each part
Dilution Rate
100
This is a high concentrate formulation based upon analysis concentrations. The EC of the Part A is 1.08, Part B EC = 1.64, combined the EC is 2.72. Obviously a higher EC then most would consider using.
The PH used with RO water should be 5.4 at 1:100
The TDS ast a 1:100 mix is 1904
For a PK booster simply buy monopottassium phosphate. It is used in about 95% of all the complter tow ot three part formulas. It is the most expensive ingredian, but np where as expensive as buying it from some one like AN or GH etc. $5.64 va pond or a bit over $3 a pound in 50 pound bags. http://www.cropking.com/HydroponicSu...c7d0b38a0a2467


FATMANS LUCAS FORMULA ANALYSIS
There are two other better choices.


2 Parts Micro and 1 Part Bloom


ppm my weight mg/L
Nitrogen 333
Phosphorus 166
Potassium 200
Magnesium 50
Calcium 429
Sulfur 66
Iron 6.67
Manganese 3.33
Boron 3.33
Zinc 2.00
Copper .67
Molybdenum .05


29.7 Ounces Fertilizer Salts and Minerals
Ounces
Part A
Calcium Nitrate 28.4
Iron Chelate .90
Part B
MonoPotassium Phosphate 10.5
Magnesium Sulfate 6.7
Manganese Sulfate .179
Boric Acid / Solubor .245
Zinc Sulfate 1.17
Copper Sulfate .039
Ammonium Molybdate .001
Volume of Stock Solutions 100 gallons
Dilution Rate 1
EC 2.9
TDS 3562 by weight mg/L
pH 5.7
TDS 2079 mg/L with 070 conversion


1 Part Grow, 1 Part Bloom and 1 Part Micro
ppm by salt weights mg/L
Nitrogen 233
Phosphorus 200
Potassium 367
Magnesium 67
Calcium 246
Sulfur 89
Iron 3.33
Manganese 1.67
Boron 1.67
Zinc 1.00
Copper .33
Molybdenum .03


26.7 Ounces Salts and Minerals
Ounces
Part A
Calcium Nitrate 16.3
Potassium Nitrate 2.2
Iron Chelate .4
Part B
Potassium Nitrate 2.2
MonoPotassium Phosphate 12.6
Magnesium Sulfate 9.0
Manganese Sulfate.090
Boric Acid / Solubor.123
Zinc Sulfate.058
Copper Sulfate .020
Ammonium Molybdate .001

 

[zem]

Salt peter, or potassium nitrate, is an illegal explosive in Canada.

http://www.gazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p2/2008/2008-03-19/html/sor-dors47-eng.html

Not going to argue with anyone any further about this. It's restricted, buying any amount requires you to fill out a form, at which point they track your identity and try to determine if you are a terrorist. Thanks, but no.

If you bought this from the USA you raised flags, and they are keeping an eye on you. I'd steer clear of buying any other illegal chemicals for awhile.


@ Zem, no it's not cheaper to buy anything premixed, period.
Also why the fuck would I mix it out every feeding? I'm mixing up 100x 1gallon jugs. Or 100gallons worth at a time.
I can also sell it to friends, because I'm smart enough to make this shit.
And with triple superphosphate you are trying to add in more phosphorous, not more calcium.
Calcium and sodium are ever present in water, and are the slowest to be taken up by plant roots, because very little is needed. As evaporation occurs, and leeching up of the nutrients by the roots, the water quickly becomes saturated with calcium and sodium to toxic levels. So you really want to keep as little calcium or sodium in your mix as possible.

So anyone else? Any info? Impart some wisdom upon this humble forum?

man you have a problem in understanding or something.. I said that I mix my own nutes I don't buy them pre-mixed and of course to make my own ferts is much cheaper. I DON'T buy pre-mixed ferts, and I have been mixing them for years. by the way, triple super-phosphate has 15% calcium in it, its technically known as calcium dihydrogen phosphate and as monocalcium phosphate, [Ca(H2PO4)2.H2O but what the fuck am I doing trying to teach you? I only have years of experience mixing my own ferts... you cannot learn, I really doubt that you will learn from anyone because you reject knowledge. Go ahead and kill your plants.

 

[LearyRed]

man you have a problem in understanding or something.. I said that I mix my own nutes I don't buy them pre-mixed and of course to make my own ferts is much cheaper. I DON'T buy pre-mixed ferts, and I have been mixing them for years. by the way, triple super-phosphate has 15% calcium in it, its technically known as calcium dihydrogen phosphate and as monocalcium phosphate, [Ca(H2PO4)2.H2O but what the fuck am I doing trying to teach you? I only have years of experience mixing my own ferts... you cannot learn, I really doubt that you will learn from anyone because you reject knowledge. Go ahead and kill your plants.

What the hell are you talking about?

A direct quote, from you "for your trace elements mix, you can just get it premixed because some elements in it you only need small quantity, it will be more costly to buy in parts let alone the complication of measuring small quantities of powder at every feeding, I found them in a 2Kg premixed package." - ZEM

How about your read your own post again? Try and learn what the hell you are talking about, and then educate me.

I have tons of knowledge on what H2O2 is for (peroxide, which I don't use)
I again, never said ammonia in your first criticism of me, you said ammonia.

Calcium, sodium and sulfur build up in your tank as nutrients are taken out, calcium causes hardwater, both cause toxicity and burning in leaves in old DWC reservoirs.
Adding the minimum amount of sodium and calcium that you can prevents build ups in your reservoir and also nutrient lockouts. Unless you've fucked up hard, you will be using triple super phosphate to add PHOSPHORUS! you know the N P K

How about potassium silicate, how much of that do you use?
They also have super phosphate, actually....

Table 2 - Sources of Phosphorus


Fertilizer Name, Total Phosphorous (P2O5) (%), Water Solubility (%)
Phosphate Rock, 25-35, 0-10
Phosphoric Acid, 40-54, 100
Superphosphoric Acid, 69-72, 100
Normal Superphosphate, 20(15S), 85-95
Triple Superphosphate, 44-46, 85-95
Monoammonium Phosphate, 52 (11N), 95-100
Ammonium Phosphate, 20(16N-15S), 95-100
Diammonium Phosphate, 46(18N), 95-100
Ammonium Polyphosphate, 34(10N), 100

So where do I reject knowledge, it seems I have gained just as much as you, thanks for the lack of help though, you seem to just be spewing off chemical definitions.

Also you can buy small amounts of banned chemicals, but they track your name, large amounts over time increases suspicion. This is all evidence, and evidence is well evidence.

Plants are healthy btw Zem, just trying to find more high nitrogen, low Ca/Na/S, mixes. I have hydrobuddy, so it should be easy, they have every substance already listed. Then I have numerous tutorials listing the rest, I just like to collect more info, and recipes. Thanks again for your fit though. It still isn't cheaper to mix your own anything, even micronutrients, that are SO hard to weigh out

 

[zem]

ok then you would have to buy a quantity of each of the trace elements, other than the Iron, you will need minute quantity so yes, it will be more expensive to buy these trace elements. by the way, I don't use so many components, all I use is:
Calcium Nitrate, Potassium Nitrate, Mono-potassium phosphate, Magnesium Sulfate, Phosphoric acid, and trace elements. You really only need to find sources of nutrients not just get every element there is. And if you believe that the feds are onto me because I got me a 25Kg bag of potassium Nitrate, then I think you must cut back on smoking because it is making you paranoid...

 

[connoisseurde420]

interesting mixing your own nutes im going to reasearch....

 

[LearyRed]

ok then you would have to buy a quantity of each of the trace elements, other than the Iron, you will need minute quantity so yes, it will be more expensive to buy these trace elements. by the way, I don't use so many components, all I use is:
Calcium Nitrate, Potassium Nitrate, Mono-potassium phosphate, Magnesium Sulfate, Phosphoric acid, and trace elements. You really only need to find sources of nutrients not just get every element there is. And if you believe that the feds are onto me because I got me a 25Kg bag of potassium Nitrate, then I think you must cut back on smoking because it is making you paranoid...

Ya but this is Canada, so the feds do track you, end of story on that front as it's clearly posted on the government website link I already provided.
Yes you have to buy the trace elements thank you. Not much of it is needed, but then I don't have to purchase it often. Refills just got cheaper.

I'd like to see your premixed micronutrients though, but I still prefer having every chemical separate, it allows much more control.

There are lots of recipes for your own mix, it's mainly just a necessity to get the ppm's, and hydrobuddy will do the rest for you. I'm going to take out as many sulfates as I can, and anything with calcium in it is generally bad. You need a certain amount, but not that much.

If you don't have hydrobuddy yet, and you're reading this, get it, and read the guys website. It will answer a lot of your questions.

Here are two links for you connoisseurde420

http://buymarijuanaseeds.com/community/threads/delta9420’s-diy-raw-salt-fertilizers-for-dummies.17187/

That is delta9420s post on raw fertilizers, unfortunately it was interrupted.

https://www.thcfarmer.com/community/threads/fatmans-diy-nutrient-mixing-guide.20899/

And this is someone reposting fatmans mixing guide. As well as his other posts. Fatman is an amazing resource for information, if you can find him, he seems to have been universally banned XD

Good luck on the research.

 

[zem]

I have relied on few of fatman's formulas in my grows they are great references for me, it's retarded to ban fatman. anyway, what I meant about having these trace elements in parts being more expensive is because some of them are needed in very very small quantity and it doesn't really matter for the plant more or less of these it's really hard to underfeed with trace elements as long as you're adding them, no need for all the fuss to control molybdenum zinc copper manganese boron and what else! if you feel like buying all those then measure them accurately, go ahead. you can get them premixed powders. check this out http://extension.umd.edu/publications/pdfs/fs868.pdf you would find them in bigger gardening and agriculture stores. they are used in small quantity the biggest container I found is only 2KG used for fields

 

[LearyRed]

I have relied on few of fatman's formulas in my grows they are great references for me, it's retarded to ban fatman. anyway, what I meant about having these trace elements in parts being more expensive is because some of them are needed in very very small quantity and it doesn't really matter for the plant more or less of these it's really hard to underfeed with trace elements as long as you're adding them, no need for all the fuss to control molybdenum zinc copper manganese boron and what else! if you feel like buying all those then measure them accurately, go ahead. you can get them premixed powders. check this out http://extension.umd.edu/publications/pdfs/fs868.pdf you would find them in bigger gardening and agriculture stores. they are used in small quantity the biggest container I found is only 2KG used for fields

I haven't experimented with it too much yet, but I was mainly going to get all the micro nutrients separately so I could mess around with them and see if I can get any yield differences.
However you have convinced me to search out a premixed micro nutrient powder to add to my mix, as a control.
And I agree with you zem, banning fatman is retarded, when you're that smart you've earned a bit of arrogance, and I personally learned enough off of him to forgive him for anything hes said.
That said I don't believe it was as cut and dry as him being an asshole, I think the posting of advertisers product recipes, while bashing said advertisers products... Well I think this will get you banned the quickest from any forum.

I was interested in this page

http://www.usu.edu/cpl/research_hydroponics3.htm

(ANOTHER FOR YOU connoisseurde420)
(also found this link later, look at The Yorkshiremans post) https://www.rollitup.org/nutrients/485086-advanced-nutrients-lie-their-labels-7.html
(and the hydrobuddy link for anyone looking) http://scienceinhydroponics.com/ (its like a blog, if you select month on the left you'll end up with tons of posts about anything you could really want)

and their findings with silicon. I'm trying to find the other page I read this on, but they stated that hydroponic tomatoes they added silicon to enjoyed an increase yield.
(I don't remember exactly the number but I think it was in the order of 30% which is HUGE if true)

Anyway happy to have finally gotten another good Chemical fertilizer thread going... well one of the ONLY chemical fertilizer threads. The organics people are probably planning mass resistance as we speak.

 

[connoisseurde420]

thanks for the links lots of reading to do now lol but im getting the idea ... would like to see some pics of stuff grow with your own nutes interested in how flavor will come out...