veganics,bat guano &health

[terrycodone]

so about a year ago i stopped using the guano ferts that i had employed the three previous cyles after being advised to by a 20+year vet during some 16hr trimmin' talk.he shared a story with me of a friend with bad health problems who was also a medical marijuana patient.according to his patient his grower (not my friend) used bat guano much like many expert organic growers,but when the patient went to the doctor he still had a high level of bad toxins in either his liver or kidneys(youll have to excuse that i dont clearly remember which organ)even though his medical cannanbis helped with other aspects of his fleeting health.it wasnt until the patient switched to my friends marijuana that is grown with no guano of any kind that the bad levels in his important organs had went down dramatically and he felt better every day as a result.my friend explained it to me like this,bats are essentially flying rats.so even though theyre feces are a gold mine for nitrogen among other nutes and the plants thrive with it as a fert,it is plain bad to put in your body and there are plenty of other things in their dung that we are smoking and eating alot of times w/o knowledge of flushing.
im sure that there are many people that will straight disagree and who this will just not affect,im not askin for disrespect or telling people to stop using guano.growing is a very personal and individual experience and its degenerative to be more critical than constructive to someone over their process. itd just be cool if anyone has anything to add or take away from what ive summarized from my talk with a grower who's word i hold stock in.
Also ive recently read up on veganics and it doesnt seem like a far leap from guano-free.id also appreciate anyone speaking on their veganic experience.
safe growing people
-terrycodone

 

[+ WitchDoctor +]

Hi Terry, I've been growing using only plant-based nutrients since Fall of last year. I completely cut out the guanos by last october and haven't looked back. I'm vegan, for health reasons mostly, but I believe in making small footprints as well, and I don't think my footprints belong in bat caves if ya dig me

Since I dropped the guanos, I believe my flower's have been smoking and tasting better. I've been using a liquid soft rock phosphate product though, which I'm trying to narrow out right now, because I don't think that harvesting rock phosphate is environmentally responsible either...

But like I said, health reasons for me. And even in the food industry there is occasionally ecoli or other contamination in organic food production because of poorly composted manure or sick animals. So I'd much rather grow using plant-based nutrients and compost. And even though this doesn't make my smoke more potent, and it actually probable gives me a bit less of a yield than when using guanos....I'm happier this way. And all that P isn't good for the soil life anyways.

I recently developed a theory through worm-composting over the last 6 months that we should be able to get ALL, and I mean literally ALL of our NPK from worm compost. Worm compost retains much more of the original NPK value of the food scraps put in it than regular compost does, partly because the bacteria in the worms stomach is what actually breaks the food down, and the worms don't actually digest anything.

So I started a second bin a month ago using only organic food scraps that are high in PK (I have an extensive list of npk values for organic materials if you want it) and I plan on using the teas from this resulting compost as my only PK source during flower for a few plants in a couple weeks. Wish me luck lol.

 

[IggyZag]

Hi Terry, I've been growing using only plant-based nutrients since Fall of last year. I completely cut out the guanos by last october and haven't looked back. I'm vegan, for health reasons mostly, but I believe in making small footprints as well, and I don't think my footprints belong in bat caves if ya dig me Since I dropped the guanos, I believe my flower's have been smoking and tasting better. I've been using a liquid soft rock phosphate product though, which I'm trying to narrow out right now, because I don't think that harvesting rock phosphate is environmentally responsible either...But like I said, health reasons for me. And even in the food industry there is occasionally ecoli or other contamination in organic food production because of poorly composted manure or sick animals. So I'd much rather grow using plant-based nutrients and compost. And even though this doesn't make my smoke more potent, and it actually probable gives me a bit less of a yield than when using guanos....I'm happier this way. And all that P isn't good for the soil life anyways.I recently developed a theory through worm-composting over the last 6 months that we should be able to get ALL, and I mean literally ALL of our NPK from worm compost. Worm compost retains much more of the original NPK value of the food scraps put in it than regular compost does, partly because the bacteria in the worms stomach is what actually breaks the food down, and the worms don't actually digest anything.So I started a second bin a month ago using only organic food scraps that are high in PK (I have an extensive list of npk values for organic materials if you want it) and I plan on using the teas from this resulting compost as my only PK source during flower for a few plants in a couple weeks. Wish me luck lol.

Witchdoctor I would not mind getting that npk list from you if at all possible. Also as for guanos I was told by someone on here with an immune disorder that they will not use guanos because they get sick constantly from it as well as a patient where I'm from that states he as well gets rightly sick from smoking guano bud. Typically I'd kind of shrug that off, however I did use guanos the last grow more heavily then regular and now anytime I smoke my bud I get a nasty mucus in my throat. I could just be sick but its been going on a good awhile. I won't be cutting the guano until I know for sure which will be in another few grows and much more reading.

 

[terrycodone]

Hi Terry, I've been growing using only plant-based nutrients since Fall of last year. I completely cut out the guanos by last october and haven't looked back. I'm vegan, for health reasons mostly, but I believe in making small footprints as well, and I don't think my footprints belong in bat caves if ya dig me

Since I dropped the guanos, I believe my flower's have been smoking and tasting better. I've been using a liquid soft rock phosphate product though, which I'm trying to narrow out right now, because I don't think that harvesting rock phosphate is environmentally responsible either...

But like I said, health reasons for me. And even in the food industry there is occasionally ecoli or other contamination in organic food production because of poorly composted manure or sick animals. So I'd much rather grow using plant-based nutrients and compost. And even though this doesn't make my smoke more potent, and it actually probable gives me a bit less of a yield than when using guanos....I'm happier this way. And all that P isn't good for the soil life anyways.

I recently developed a theory through worm-composting over the last 6 months that we should be able to get ALL, and I mean literally ALL of our NPK from worm compost. Worm compost retains much more of the original NPK value of the food scraps put in it than regular compost does, partly because the bacteria in the worms stomach is what actually breaks the food down, and the worms don't actually digest anything.

So I started a second bin a month ago using only organic food scraps that are high in PK (I have an extensive list of npk values for organic materials if you want it) and I plan on using the teas from this resulting compost as my only PK source during flower for a few plants in a couple weeks. Wish me luck lol.

thanks for the reply witchdoctor,it hadnt occured to me to think of the health aspects of the animals in question nor the methods of retrieval and processing.your input has strengthened my views that apart from being unnecessary and or natural resource depleting,theyre unhealthy for a portion of the more critical patients who might need constant relief from the mind lifting,sedating etc, qualities of cannabis.
also the list you speak of could be very helpful for some of us trying to find a paath to self sustaining high grade compost

 

[terrycodone]

Witchdoctor I would not mind getting that npk list from you if at all possible. Also as for guanos I was told by someone on here with an immune disorder that they will not use guanos because they get sick constantly from it as well as a patient where I'm from that states he as well gets rightly sick from smoking guano bud. Typically I'd kind of shrug that off, however I did use guanos the last grow more heavily then regular and now anytime I smoke my bud I get a nasty mucus in my throat. I could just be sick but its been going on a good awhile. I won't be cutting the guano until I know for sure which will be in another few grows and much more reading.

i wonder if its an ongoing problem for patients with immune disorders,hiv or other conditions that make people more susceptible to illness to get bad reactions or just plain sickness from guano grown cannabis?kind of makes sense that feces in a body susceptible to bacteria, etc., would be damaging but i couldnt analyze it from a biologic standpoint.

 

[jamboss]

Do you think this applies to cow, sheep and chicken manure as well?

 

[+ WitchDoctor +]

Witchdoctor I would not mind getting that npk list from you if at all possible. Also as for guanos I was told by someone on here with an immune disorder that they will not use guanos because they get sick constantly from it as well as a patient where I'm from that states he as well gets rightly sick from smoking guano bud. Typically I'd kind of shrug that off, however I did use guanos the last grow more heavily then regular and now anytime I smoke my bud I get a nasty mucus in my throat. I could just be sick but its been going on a good awhile. I won't be cutting the guano until I know for sure which will be in another few grows and much more reading.

I agree with you about the mucusy feeling I get in my throat from smoking organic pot that was grown using a lot of guano. Now, to be fair, I'll say that maybe had I flushed for longer than ten days, maybe it would have been less harsh, but I shouldn't have to use straight water for more than ten days, and I should never have to flush with organics. So while a lot of people like using guanos and don't feel that it effects the quality of their pot, I have to smoke or vaporize at least 3 or 4 grams throughout the day just to be able to eat...and I'm pretty sure I can tell the difference. Organic bud grown with guano doesn't make me sick though, but I'm not an auto-immune patient. But why not treat myself to an auto-immune patients natural medicine lol, why not go after a "more pure" medicine.

Plus, like I said, I'm all about being environmentally responsible, and I don't mind going a little overboard with it either sometimes. Gotta keep myself busy doing something.

i wonder if its an ongoing problem for patients with immune disorders,hiv or other conditions that make people more susceptible to illness to get bad reactions or just plain sickness from guano grown cannabis?kind of makes sense that feces in a body susceptible to bacteria, etc., would be damaging but i couldnt analyze it from a biologic standpoint.

It's definitely an ongoing problem for auto-immune patients. And you can't forget that a lot of auto-immune patients are also using hardcore concentrates and juicing fan leaves as well.

I'm not sure exactly what from the guano the roots bring up, but it's obviously more than NPK. I mean it's not like poop literally grows into the bud...but I feel like I can taste the difference in taste of smoke and I can feel the difference in my chest and throat.

Here's that NPK list guys http://bestlawn.info/home/faqs/51-npk-of-organic-materials.pdf It's a pretty big list. I juice oranges and lemons, both high in P and I compost cucumber peels, bananas, and a few other things high in PK as well in a separate worm bin.

Have either of you guys checked out the Veganics thread in this site? It's a sticky at the top of the organic forum called Veganics with Matt Rize. Tons of great info on there. That's what got me started growing this way.

 

[Joedank]

^^^^ yes I currently only use cow manure from my own grass fed cows. Sum are set loose on corn feilds that have been sprayed ... Those things build up quick...
The ultimate for my personal smoke is now - alfalfa and manure layers covered with a tarp for the first three days and bam !! Like a fire !! Mix that with screened gravel and worm compost ...: done I add age old organics but I am moving to cut it out as the fish in it has dioxins ;(

 

[+ WitchDoctor +]

Do you think this applies to cow, sheep and chicken manure as well?

Yes, but I would promote the use of all those manures over the use of guano just because of the way guano is harvested. My outdoor garden (food) doesn't have any poop in it either and my strawberry plants already gave me (some stupid fucking squirrel) some strawberries. lol.

As long as the manure is composted properly and not from any sick animals, then it should be safe to use. But I'm into safer, or safest..when I have a choice in the matter. And auto-immune patients have to be safest and then some, especially if they are eating and juicing raw.

And I'm not against a little bit of guano or manure being used in my soil necessarily, but not the HUGE amounts that are being used in the industry. Plus a high P environment kills of the myco...which is kinda counter productive.

 

[jamboss]

My manures come from grass fed animals as swell except for the chicken as their fed chicken feed but no iffy chemicals.

 

[terrycodone]

I agree with you about the mucusy feeling I get in my throat from smoking organic pot that was grown using a lot of guano. Now, to be fair, I'll say that maybe had I flushed for longer than ten days, maybe it would have been less harsh, but I shouldn't have to use straight water for more than ten days, and I should never have to flush with organics. So while a lot of people like using guanos and don't feel that it effects the quality of their pot, I have to smoke or vaporize at least 3 or 4 grams throughout the day just to be able to eat...and I'm pretty sure I can tell the difference. Organic bud grown with guano doesn't make me sick though, but I'm not an auto-immune patient. But why not treat myself to an auto-immune patients natural medicine lol, why not go after a "more pure" medicine.

Plus, like I said, I'm all about being environmentally responsible, and I don't mind going a little overboard with it either sometimes. Gotta keep myself busy doing something.







It's definitely an ongoing problem for auto-immune patients. And you can't forget that a lot of auto-immune patients are also using hardcore concentrates and juicing fan leaves as well.

I'm not sure exactly what from the guano the roots bring up, but it's obviously more than NPK. I mean it's not like poop literally grows into the bud...but I feel like I can taste the difference in taste of smoke and I can feel the difference in my chest and throat.

Here's that NPK list guys http://bestlawn.info/home/faqs/51-npk-of-organic-materials.pdf It's a pretty big list. I juice oranges and lemons, both high in P and I compost cucumber peels, bananas, and a few other things high in PK as well in a separate worm bin.

Have either of you guys checked out the Veganics thread in this site? It's a sticky at the top of the organic forum called Veganics with Matt Rize. Tons of great info on there. That's what got me started growing this way.

^to everyone^-this is what i started coming to this site for in the first place.hearing from you guys and your individual perceptions lets me see things from a side i possibly wouldnt have before.

witchdoctor-i agree that having to extensively flush organic soil kinda defeats the purpose of goin all natural. I can definitely taste,(and slightly smell) the difference in my buds from when i switched from guano products to the humboldt nutrients line.The H.N. costs more but in the end i feel much more proud medicating my patient friends and hearing them tell me of how much better it has gotten.
as far as veganics and matt rize i watched a youtbe video a couple weeks with him breaking down the properties of veganics and i was very interested,also seeing the crop he consulted for that was produced with veeganics looked very healthy and productive.im gonna have to check out his thread ive seen it up top before.
thanks for droppin knowledge and the list W.D.

so manure is better for immune disorder patients than guano?or is it the lesser of two evils?
is it cool to harvest worms from outside?and will they breed if i leave them in my compost pile?(the one i havent started yet)

 

[+ WitchDoctor +]

^to everyone^-this is what i started coming to this site for in the first place.hearing from you guys and your individual perceptions lets me see things from a side i possibly wouldnt have before.

witchdoctor-i agree that having to extensively flush organic soil kinda defeats the purpose of goin all natural. I can definitely taste,(and slightly smell) the difference in my buds from when i switched from guano products to the humboldt nutrients line.The H.N. costs more but in the end i feel much more proud medicating my patient friends and hearing them tell me of how much better it has gotten.
as far as veganics and matt rize i watched a youtbe video a couple weeks with him breaking down the properties of veganics and i was very interested,also seeing the crop he consulted for that was produced with veeganics looked very healthy and productive.im gonna have to check out his thread ive seen it up top before.
thanks for droppin knowledge and the list W.D.

so manure is better for immune disorder patients than guano?or is it the lesser of two evils?
is it cool to harvest worms from outside?and will they breed if i leave them in my compost pile?(the one i havent started yet)

If you are looking at it from an environmental standpoint, yes, manure would be the lesser of 2 evils. But technically you have to use less of the guano because it's higher in N and P than manure, and it's been composted better and longer typically. So if using a responsibly sourced guano, it would probably be better from a medical standpoint to use guano over manure.

But in the end they are both poop. So if I was going to use one or the other, I'd go with manure just because cows and chicken are being grown for food either way, so harvesting their poop doesn't destroy their habitat, as in the case of bats. Seabird guano is the only one that really seems unsafe to me, because those birds are basically eating garbage ya know...or worse.

I use Humboldt Honey here and there, and the Natural Bloom, but I haven't used any of their base nutes or anything, how do you like them? I've used the whole GO line, but prefer Bio Canna now, and just use a couple GO products and a lot of other stuff from other companies. OMRI certs are kind of a big deal for me as well. The only company I use anything non-OMRI is General Organics, and that's only because it's a US company and I believe it's as organic as they could make it. However I just noticed there is soybean in the BioRoot, and it's probably GMO lol, so I'm definitely ditching that product.

GO says they don't believe in labeling...but that's just an excuse I'm sure. Companies are always taking advantage of consumers, which is why the labeling is there in the first place...even if the certification is just about making money...

And there's actually a cheat sheet of the veganics thread too, if you want to just read all the good info and skip all the banter and haters....but either way if you read the whole thread, it's more educational than ANY of the grow bibles or canna books I've read.

 

[terrycodone]

ive experienced zero nute burn when using the humboldt nutrients line,with no out of the ordinary flushing this harvest using 100% hn was the most clean tasting bud ive produced ever.i always use a little less than recommended on the bottle at most,and the only time i had a problem is when i mixed the hydro deuce potassium solution with my reg. 2 part fert regimen without dialing it down a grip.even then they recovered quickly.
i dont use their bloom which is 0-10-0,or at least the only one i had access to was,while their master A & B ferts have truly done right by me.i usually add nothing to my soil but perlite & things of that nature to lighten it,i used blood and bone meal before but i overdosed a transplant and i havent used them since.honestly though depending on the humboldt nutrients mainly for feeding has not been that bad for me at all.i just hate to think of how much better my medicine can be with soil amendments.how much do you think my girs are missing out?

i would like to start compost but in my area its very humid and and wet,plus the always looming rainclouds.would mold be bad to have in my compost?i know it can get pretty goss in the bins but idk about fungus

 

[jamboss]

Its always nice to have a healthy discussion on an important subject, cheers.

 

[personified]

I'm sorry guys but you say that you flush organics? Why? You do understand that the plant does not get its nutrients from the ferts? Instead it is the bacterial life that exude nutrients that the plants then uptakes. Flushing does not wash away the manures nor all of the microbial life unless of course you use water with lots of chlorine ect. Even then it would take a lot.

The prupose to flushing is to wash away salt build up from the ferts. Unless your adding way to much epson or cal mag you are not going to have this problem. I guess you can have salt build up in cow and horse manures but again you won't be able to flush it all out after planting. If you did not do it before during the composting it is to late.

I would have to experience what your saying about the guanos (which I use) for the same reason. To me it makes no sense based on the way microbial life feeds the plants.

 

[blueJ]

^^^ what he said. Am i still the only one here that grows indoor w/ NO drainage? Every watering is nutes/tea in flower until the very last watering, or two, basically the last week. Nothin' but compliments and a super tasty smooth medicine.

I started down the veganic route a year ago, and it's changed and developed a hundred different ways and been the best growing experience thus far.

I have to go but will elaborate later....

 

[terrycodone]

I'm sorry guys but you say that you flush organics? Why? You do understand that the plant does not get its nutrients from the ferts? Instead it is the bacterial life that exude nutrients that the plants then uptakes. Flushing does not wash away the manures nor all of the microbial life unless of course you use water with lots of chlorine ect. Even then it would take a lot.

The prupose to flushing is to wash away salt build up from the ferts. Unless your adding way to much epson or cal mag you are not going to have this problem. I guess you can have salt build up in cow and horse manures but again you won't be able to flush it all out after planting. If you did not do it before during the composting it is to late.

I would have to experience what your saying about the guanos (which I use) for the same reason. To me it makes no sense based on the way microbial life feeds the plants.

touching on why i chose to flush,i have always had to with previous grow due to synthetics.when i first made the choice to clean up my process i did some searching on whether or not it was necessary to flush or not with organics,what i found showed it wasnt really that necessary but id rather give them plain water for their last 5 days than the liquid ferts i fed them beforehand.

 

[+ WitchDoctor +]

I just spent 45 minutes typing out a response and it deleted it. Is the site still having problems??

 

[terrycodone]

i cant believe im not the only one!it doesnt seem that bad though operationally

 

[+ WitchDoctor +]

I wasn't even trying to get on it yesterday lol. Crazy.

Anyways, @personified, I don't flush. I use teas the last two weeks and straight water two days before I cut them down. If I was using manure I would probably try to flush. I realize that flushing is primarily for salt build-up, but I can imagine a fair deal of poop would mix with water and leech out of the container.


I don't know much about outdoor composting in humid conditions Terry, but I imagine a little mold would be ok, but a lot of it would be a problem. I know with my worms they'll eat the mold up just the same, but I never get much of it anyways.

And I think that with most strains you could go at least twice as hard on your nutes, but like I said I've never used Humboldt's line. But with GO and with Bio Canna I feed double to triple strength mid to late flower. As long as your using myco and using AACTs between feedings.