Insufficient/Incorrect Flushing Before Harvest= Different Color Ash?

Kite High

Kite High

Well-Known Member
SACReDHeRB said:
The paragraph regarding flushing is the opinion of another, although it's far more plausible than you, "just saying". How do you find it detrimental to the curing process? Is this "batch" you refer to in-ground, outdoors? What is the feed regimen?
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in soiless promix hp amaended with dolamite , azomite and de...fed Dynagro...cause deficiencies cause problems...you can rinse nothing out of the plant but you surely do f' up its processes by denying its needs and botanically that really screws thins up...read botanical books instead of "how to grow pot" forums and books...or better yet do not flush and see for yourself ...otherwise...jus saying
 
Kite High

Kite High

Well-Known Member
SACReDHeRB said:
The paragraph regarding flushing is the opinion of another, although it's far more plausible than you, "just saying". How do you find it detrimental to the curing process? Is this "batch" you refer to in-ground, outdoors? What is the feed regimen?
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Here you go:

From an administrator at Sensi Seeds

"Advanced - Flushing

A critical look at preharvest flushing

Pre harvest flushing is a controversial topic. Flushing is supposed to improve taste of the final bud by either giving only pure water, clearing solutions or extensive flushing for the last 7-14 days of flowering. While many growers claim a positive effect, others deny any positive influence or even suggest reduced yield and quality.

The theory of pre harvest flushing is to remove nutrients from the grow medium/root zone. A lack of nutrients creates a deficiency, forcing the plant to translocate and use up its internal nutrient compounds.

Nutrient fundamentals and uptake:

A good read about plant nutrition can be found here.

Until recently it was common thought that all nutrients are absorbed by plant roots as ions of mineral elements. However in newer studies more and more evidence emerged that additionally plant roots are capable of taking up complex organic molecules like amino acids directly thus bypassing the mineralization process.

The major nutrient uptake processes are:

1) Active transport mechanism into root hairs (the plant has to put energy in it, ATP driven) which is selective to some degree. This is one way the plant (being immobile) can adjust to the environment.

2) Passive transport (diffusion) through symplast to endodermis.

http://www.biol.sc.edu/courses/bio102/f99-3637.html

http://www.hort.wisc.edu/cran/Publications/2001 Proceedings/min_nutr.pdf

The claim only ‘chemical’ ferted plants need to be flushed should be taken with a grain of salt. Organic and synthetic ferted plants take up mineral ions alike, probably to a different degree though. Many influences play key roles in the taste and flavor of the final bud, like the nutrition balance and strength throughout the entire life cycle of the plant, the drying and curing process and other environmental conditions.

3) Active transport mechanism of organic molecules into root hairs via endocytosis.

http://acd.ucar.edu/~eholland/encyc6.html

Here is a simplified overview of nutrient functions:

Nitrogen is needed to build chlorophyll, amino acids, and proteins. Phosphorus is necessary for photosynthesis and other growth processes. Potassium is utilized to form sugar and starch and to activate enzymes. Magnesium also plays a role in activating enzymes and is part of chlorophyll. Calcium is used during cell growth and division and is part of the cell wall. Sulfur is part of amino acids and proteins.

Plants also require trace elements, which include boron, chlorine, copper, iron, manganese, sodium, zinc, molybdenum, nickel, cobalt, and silicon.

Copper, iron, and manganese are used in photosynthesis. Molybdenum, nickel, and cobalt are necessary for the movement of nitrogen in the plant. Boron is important for reproduction, while chlorine stimulates root growth and development. Sodium benefits the movement of water within the plant and zinc is neeeded for enzymes and used in auxins (organic plant hormones). Finally, silicon helps to build tough cell walls for better heat and drought tolerance.

http://www.sidwell.edu

You can get an idea from this how closely all the essential elements are involved in the many metabolic processes within the plant, often relying on each other.

Nutrient movement and mobility inside the plant:

Besides endocytosis, there are two major pathways inside the plant, the xylem and the phloem. When water and minerals are absorbed by plant roots, these substances must be transported up to the plant's stems and leaves for photosynthesis and further metabolic processes. This upward transport happens in the xylem. While the xylem is able to transport organic compounds, the phloem is much more adapted to do so.

The organic compounds thus originating in the leaves have to be moved throughout the plant, upwards and downwards, to where they are needed. This transport happens in the phloem. Compounds that are moving through the phloem are mostly:
Sugars as sugary saps, organic nitrogen compounds (amino acids and amides, ureides and legumes), hormones and proteins.

http://www.sirinet.net

Not all nutrient compounds are moveable within the plant.

1) N, P, K, Mg and S are considered mobile: they can move up and down the plant in both xylem and phloem.
Deficiency appears on old leaves first.

2) Ca, Fe, Zn, Mo, B, Cu, Mn are considered immobile: they only move up the plant in the xylem.
Deficiency appears on new leaves first.

http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu

Storage organelles:

Salts and organic metabolites can be stored in storage organelles. The most important storage organelle is the vacuole, which can contribute up to 90% of the cell volume. The majority of compounds found in the vacuole are sugars, polysaccharides, organic acids and proteins though.

http://jeb.biologists.org.pdf

Translocation:

Now that the basics are explained, we can take a look at the translocation process. It should be already clear that only mobile elements can be translocated through the phloem. Immobile elements cant be translocated and are not more available to the plant for further metabolic processes and new plant growth.

Since flushing (in theory) induces a nutrient deficiency in the rootzone, the translocation process aids in the plants survival. Translocation is transportation of assimilates through the phloem from source (a net exporter of assimilate) to sink (a net importer of assimilate). Sources are mostly mature fan leaves and sinks are mostly apical meristems, lateral meristem, fruit, seed and developing leaves etc.

You can see this by the yellowing and later dying of the mature fan leaves from the second day on after flushing started. Developing leaves, bud leaves and calyxes don’t serve as sources, they are sinks. Changes in those plant parts are due to the deficient immobile elements which start to indicate on new growth first.

Unfortunately, several metabolic processes are unable to take place anymore since other elements needed are no longer available (the immobile ones). This includes processes where nitrogen and phosphorus, which have likely the most impact on taste, are involved.

For example nitrogen: usually plants use nitrogen to form plant proteins. Enzyme systems rapidly reduce nitrate-N (NO3-) to compounds that are used to build amino-nitrogen which is the basis for amino acids. Amino acids are building blocks for proteins, most of them are plant enzymes responsible for all the chemical changes important for plant growth.

Sulfur and calcium among others have major roles in production and activating of proteins, thereby decreasing nitrate within the plant. Excess nitrate within the plant may result from unbalanced nutrition rather than an excess of nitrogen.


Summary:

Preharvest flushing puts the plant(s) under serious stress. The plant has to deal with nutrient deficiencies in a very important part of its cycle. Strong changes in the amount of dissolved substances in the root-zone stress the roots, possibly to the point of direct physical damage to them. Many immobile elements are no more available for further metabolic processes. We are loosing the fan leaves and damage will show likely on new growth as well.

The grower should react in an educated way to the plant needs. Excessive, deficient or unbalanced levels should be avoided regardless the nutrient source. Nutrient levels should be gradually adjusted to the lesser needs in later flowering. Stress factors should be limited as far as possible. If that is accomplished throughout the entire life cycle, there shouldn’t be any excessive nutrient compounds in the plants tissue. It doesn’t sound likely to the author that you can correct growing errors (significant lower mobile nutrient compound levels) with preharvest flushing.

Drying and curing (when done right) on the other hand have proved (In many studies) to have a major impact on taste and flavour, by breaking down chlorophylls and converting starches into sugars. Most attributes blamed on unflushed buds may be the result of unbalanced nutrition and/or overfert and unproper drying/curing."

JUS SAYIN
 
A

alarma

Member
Kite High said:
Preharvest flushing puts the plant(s) under serious stress.
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INMHO stressing the plant 1-2 weeks before harvest is a great thing since stress increases trichome production (as believed that trichomes are part of the plants' defense system). Also most feeding schedules say to stop food only the last week which should not cause severe stress since there should be a good amount of fertilizers stored in the plants leafs (reservoirs).
 
Kite High

Kite High

Well-Known Member
alarma said:
INMHO stressing the plant 1-2 weeks before harvest is a great thing since stress increases trichome production (as believed that trichomes are part of the plants' defense system). Also most feeding schedules say to stop food only the last week which should not cause severe stress since there should be a good amount of fertilizers stored in the plants leafs (reservoirs).
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did u read the above info?
 
Izoc666

Izoc666

Well-Known Member
Ya know im one of not fan of pre harvest flushing since i learned by expriementing...simple take a clones from mother (same strain) then do the flush and not flush...in the end , the result was same but nonflush will yield more...so I started the different route about drying and curing thats key factor for taste, aroma, and potency. I would keep suggest everyone to take a expriement to improve their knowledge and exprience, JMHO. its worth to try.
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homebrewer

homebrewer

Well-Known Member
SACReDHeRB said:
According to your own cited quote it doesn't mean 'more pure' but lighter/white ash is "of better quality." In this case purity is associated with quality, contrary to what a stoner thinks. (you)



True. Firstly, this applies only to TOBACCO and several layers of TOBACCO rolled into a dense cigar as compared to marijuana, which is the topic. Secondly, this only applies to growers who are solely using native soil. The majority of high-grade marijuana is grown indoors, hydroponically; therefore the content of the nutrient solution is controlled by the grower(s). It seems many people are wondering if there is a relation between the quality of the herb and the ash. Because if we are paying $15-20 for an herb it should be damn near perfect.

Ash is the leftover mineral content of an incinerated substance. Assuming you are using a bong/bowl with a screen and a normal cigarette lighter. If you burn the bud to the point of no longer receiving smoke the lighter the remains are, then usually, the more 'pure' the bud is. I'd say chemical-free, but nutrient-free or fertilizer-free would be more accurate b/c there of course are naturally occurring chemicals/nutrients in the plant matter and medium.

It's improper/under-flushing, that will leave you with weed that 'sparks' when the lighter hits and a black soot when finished rather than a fine, white-gray powder. Improper flushing is a good way of putting it b/c, conversely to under-flushing, over-flushing can cause a similar appearance; the plant begins to consume itself and the altered ratio of compounds created as it depletes its resources will burn and combust less evenly, also leaving you with slightly darker ash. When a plant is grown just right and when it's harvested just after the remaining nutrients leave the plant, and soil, the resulting herb burns almost as though it was meant to be smoked.


On a more serious note, your cited resource had a few spelling and grammatical errors. Therefore their reliability is questionable although they had many good points/tidbits. On an even more serious note to call into question is the correlation and validity you perceived this info to have to marijuana which is a bud not a cigar.:wall:

As for many other peoples comments about how their blunt or joint ashes vary, etc. Of course they do because you are using a secondary plant material(esp. blunts which aren't very consistent in quality)which compromises the marijuana ashes sole properties. In this case we are referring solely to marijuana ash in and of itself, no blunt or joint/ rolled cigar(ette).

According to someone else: If the final product lacks any moisture, during burning, it will produce a black ash. Balanced moisture will produce light gray-white ash. The taste may be slightly affected by the lack of moisture but it is definitely the smoothness of the smoke that suffers due to no h2o to buffer the other chemicals burning, not the potency. < This would be caused mostly by a lack of proper post-harvest processing, i.e. drying, curing.


I had several other things written but due to a shitty browser, computer and luck; it was lost while I was searching for factual data, etc. to support my claim(s). The browser froze, I waited several minutes for it to recover but unfortunately I was forced to end task through task manger. Some of it was saved by the auto-save feature, yet it was less than I expected. Now, I don't have the time to remember, re-search and re-type it all, so if you have a bone to pick I will have to crush it individually.

It popped up in the bottom left-hand corner and said auto-saved. However, when I clicked restore auto-saved data it didn't restore to the most recent point, it restored quite a way back. I was livid, I had spent a while compiling the data for this reply and lost over half of it. Any thoughts from mods?:bigjoint:
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Maybe I missed your cited references in your long winded opinion here.....?
 
LearyRed

LearyRed

Member
Homebrewers post on the cuban cigar differences is something I have read into also. The myth of the white ash is said to have come from the fact that Cubans had limited access to fertilizers, and were using less controlled organic fertilizers, rather than our chemical fertilizers. Therefore their cigars would have various nitrates left in the plant matter, allowing a more even burn, and vaporization of the carbon in the plant matter to a white ash. Our knockoff cuban cigars would have been grown in North America with easily accessible, and cheap, chemical fertilizers. These would result in badly burning, black ash cigars. So white ash was to distinguish real Cuban cigars, from our cheap ones made out of chemically precise, north american farm grown tobacco.

It made sense to me, because if you run your plants high nitrogen through bloom, and harvest with a little bit of leaf burn starting. Well watch out because you have fireworks on your hands. That weed will spark and pop, and burn down to the whitest ash you've ever seen.

So some friends have taken to reducing nutrient strength to 75% during the last week, to allow the plant to use up all the extra nutrients, but still have a source. And only flush for the final day before harvest, but with nitrogen fertilizer still added to make the ash burn whiter for all the idiots that think that means good bud.

Otherwise flushing will give you the blackest, worst burning bud there is. You'll be left with all solid plant matter, with no chemical boost to your burn.

This all makes far more sense if you know nitrates are used in bombs, NO3, it's an oxidizer... makes things burn...

Anyway that's my opinion on the whole matter. I'd be curious to hear of anyone elses tricks for making white ash though.
 
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