Learning...

Dr.J20

Well-Known Member
You don't take someone's word because someone told you to, that would be foolish. Facts remain facts, regardless of who presents them though. I see no limitation to demanding evidence of something; unless you mean it would limit people's ability to make decisions based on what makes them "feel good".
yes, facts may remain facts, regardless of who presents them, but when do they become facts?
And peer review, in science, is precisely to check whether a datum is consistently reproducible within a range of error; that groups of scientists have dedicated their lives to preserving and investigating these facts does a great good for humanity, but only because we trust those scientists to engage in unimpassioned investigation. If each person had to continually prove every scientific fact for himself continuously, we would not be able to function as a society. But, please recognize that you are basically taking it on faith that the above adherences to rigor were undertaken in the production of fact. Also, please recognize, that you are still, eventually, deferring to consensus as the marker of fact--e.g., "lots of smarter people than I have tested fact x and find it reasonable to declare x a fact, therefore I should take their word, because i just don't have time and resources to read through and try to reproduce the experiences which led them to accept fact x. I ought to believe a "fact" because others have already done the skeptical work and found it reasonable to accept that "fact;" That is, of course, until the fact comes under question by another scientist who tests his claims and produces reproducible, peer reviewable studies which refute the fact, leading to the formation of a more honed, more accurate fact. This is a good system, but it does ask a large cross-section of humanity to just believe its results. It may not care whether you question those facts, but neither do ALL religions prohibit such contemplation, and, indeed, many encourage such exploration and struggle.
be easy
 

eye exaggerate

Well-Known Member
Cool :) It's never occurred to me to ask those people I dreamed about if they had dreamed of me simultaneously, and it's never come up. Of course, some of those people were dead at the time.
There is definitely a non-verbal form of communication going on between musicians playing together, and it seems to get more intimate and profound the longer they play together. My best friend is a pianist and we get together at least once a week to play through cool music he digs up, and there is a deep communication and intimacy that no other experience can touch. I think it is obvious to others, I often see our significant others act jealous of this connection as it's something they (not being musicians) can't share. Do you experience similar things?
...100%. I've often wondered about the connection while playing - then I fck up my timing and try to not think again :lol: And, though I know you may laugh a little, dreaming of deceased people applies here for sure. There's heaps of study into it. It's all linked in with coincidence, healing the family tree, and all that 'new age' stuff that is actually very old. Anyway, when I practice music I reach a meditative state. I'm right fckn out of it. To me, there's a more pronounced faculty involved, because, I'm 'there' playing, but not. Always doing my best to remember to get out of my own way. I remembered that you play with a piano friend from the early days of the Music thread. Sounds cool.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
yes, facts may remain facts, regardless of who presents them, but when do they become facts?
And peer review, in science, is precisely to check whether a datum is consistently reproducible within a range of error; that groups of scientists have dedicated their lives to preserving and investigating these facts does a great good for humanity, but only because we trust those scientists to engage in unimpassioned investigation. If each person had to continually prove every scientific fact for himself continuously, we would not be able to function as a society. But, please recognize that you are basically taking it on faith that the above adherences to rigor were undertaken in the production of fact. Also, please recognize, that you are still, eventually, deferring to consensus as the marker of fact--e.g., "lots of smarter people than I have tested fact x and find it reasonable to declare x a fact, therefore I should take their word, because i just don't have time and resources to read through and try to reproduce the experiences which led them to accept fact x. I ought to believe a "fact" because others have already done the skeptical work and found it reasonable to accept that "fact;" That is, of course, until the fact comes under question by another scientist who tests his claims and produces reproducible, peer reviewable studies which refute the fact, leading to the formation of a more honed, more accurate fact. This is a good system, but it does ask a large cross-section of humanity to just believe its results. It may not care whether you question those facts, but neither do ALL religions prohibit such contemplation, and, indeed, many encourage such exploration and struggle.
be easy
Scientific investigation is one of the most impassioned human activities. Facts remain after the passion fraction has been distilled off. cn
 

tyler.durden

Well-Known Member
...100%. I've often wondered about the connection while playing - then I fck up my timing and try to not think again :lol: And, though I know you may laugh a little, dreaming of deceased people applies here for sure. There's heaps of study into it. It's all linked in with coincidence, healing the family tree, and all that 'new age' stuff that is actually very old. Anyway, when I practice music I reach a meditative state. I'm right fckn out of it. To me, there's a more pronounced faculty involved, because, I'm 'there' playing, but not. Always doing my best to remember to get out of my own way. I remembered that you play with a piano friend from the early days of the Music thread. Sounds cool.
That's a great description of the musical experience: you do get into a meditative/altered state of consciousness. "I'm there playing, but not..." that's it exactly. Sometimes the only thing my consciousness is used for while playing (esp. while sight-reading) is keeping track of where the fuck '1' is ;) Consciousness gets in the way of many intricate, learned skills: athletes, performers, artists, etc. report that thinking consciously about what exactly there bodies are doing throws a wrench into the works and trips them up. It seems that consciousness is very necessary in technically learning a piece, but once muscle-memory is established consciousness can be detrimental to performance. Do you get to play regularly?
 

eye exaggerate

Well-Known Member
That's a great description of the musical experience: you do get into a meditative/altered state of consciousness. "I'm there playing, but not..." that's it exactly. Sometimes the only thing my consciousness is used for while playing (esp. while sight-reading) is keeping track of where the fuck '1' is ;) Consciousness gets in the way of many intricate, learned skills: athletes, performers, artists, etc. report that thinking consciously about what exactly there bodies are doing throws a wrench into the works and trips them up. It seems that consciousness is very necessary in technically learning a piece, but once muscle-memory is established consciousness can be detrimental to performance. Do you get to play regularly?
...practice almost daily. I've been working on something for a few years, but it waits as life takes precedence. A little time off helps to fully cook ideas, and makes for less editing - as an unexpected benefit :)
 

kpmarine

Well-Known Member
yes, facts may remain facts, regardless of who presents them, but when do they become facts?
And peer review, in science, is precisely to check whether a datum is consistently reproducible within a range of error; that groups of scientists have dedicated their lives to preserving and investigating these facts does a great good for humanity, but only because we trust those scientists to engage in unimpassioned investigation. If each person had to continually prove every scientific fact for himself continuously, we would not be able to function as a society. But, please recognize that you are basically taking it on faith that the above adherences to rigor were undertaken in the production of fact. Also, please recognize, that you are still, eventually, deferring to consensus as the marker of fact--e.g., "lots of smarter people than I have tested fact x and find it reasonable to declare x a fact, therefore I should take their word, because i just don't have time and resources to read through and try to reproduce the experiences which led them to accept fact x. I ought to believe a "fact" because others have already done the skeptical work and found it reasonable to accept that "fact;" That is, of course, until the fact comes under question by another scientist who tests his claims and produces reproducible, peer reviewable studies which refute the fact, leading to the formation of a more honed, more accurate fact. This is a good system, but it does ask a large cross-section of humanity to just believe its results. It may not care whether you question those facts, but neither do ALL religions prohibit such contemplation, and, indeed, many encourage such exploration and struggle.
be easy
That's why science has so many vigorous steps you must go thorough, it prevents bad science from getting disseminated officially. It's admittedly not perfect, but it does a good job of policing itself. Generally speaking, most of the advancements I have seen have not refuted prior discoveries, so much as clarified them further. I do see where you are coming from though, I think. I suppose the biggest difference between deference to scientific consensus and deference to religious consensus, in my opinion; would be that one is based in something I can verify if I wish to and have the time and resources, whereas the other is quite the opposite. Ultimately though, I guess even scientific methods were designed to remind people that what we know to be facts is not always that simple. They even went so far as to never technically have a scientific "fact", even the most well proven of ideas is only a "theory".
 

tyler.durden

Well-Known Member
That's why science has so many vigorous steps you must go thorough, it prevents bad science from getting disseminated officially. It's admittedly not perfect, but it does a good job of policing itself. Generally speaking, most of the advancements I have seen have not refuted prior discoveries, so much as clarified them further. I do see where you are coming from though, I think. I suppose the biggest difference between deference to scientific consensus and deference to religious consensus, in my opinion; would be that one is based in something I can verify if I wish to and have the time and resources, whereas the other is quite the opposite. Ultimately though, I guess even scientific methods were designed to remind people that what we know to be facts is not always that simple. They even went so far as to never technically have a scientific "fact", even the most well proven of ideas is only a "theory".
Actually, Theory is the highest form of knowledge in science, theories incorporate many facts. The way laypeople use the word theory is anything from a valid hypothesis to some wild guess pulled from someone's ass ;)
 

kpmarine

Well-Known Member
Actually, Theory is the highest form of knowledge in science, theories incorporate many facts. The way laypeople use the word theory is anything from a valid hypothesis to some wild guess pulled from someone's ass ;)
I know a scientific theory is based on fact. I meant that I found it interesting that science's highest level of truth is called a "theory", not a "fact". I always took that as a nod to a belief there is always more to learn. Sorry if I came across as trying to say theories were not facts, in respect to science.
 

Chief Walkin Eagle

Well-Known Member
Well, we could easily test that, and prove it one way or the other, but my guess is you'd oppose it or say something along the lines of "my friend doesn't want to be tested, he doesn't care, I don't have to prove anything to you...", sooo...
lol Would you like to contact him? I have no control over his actions or motives, hes just a kid who wants to live his life care free and doesnt care for being a science experiment. He'd rather not have the attention too I'd imagine, since he got annoyed at my relevant curious questions. Fuck, if I had a fat bank account I would send you down here just to see the look on your face when you find out for yourself lol wouldnt even need to get all techy with the experiment, he'd just talk to you... If you wanna contact him and question him then I can ask him if hes willing to talk to you, but I'd have to tell him what kinda person you are and that might put him off... Plus, its not like it changes anything if a scientist examines him or not lol.
 

tyler.durden

Well-Known Member
lol Would you like to contact him? I have no control over his actions or motives, hes just a kid who wants to live his life care free and doesnt care for being a science experiment. He'd rather not have the attention too I'd imagine, since he got annoyed at my relevant curious questions. Fuck, if I had a fat bank account I would send you down here just to see the look on your face when you find out for yourself lol wouldnt even need to get all techy with the experiment, he'd just talk to you... If you wanna contact him and question him then I can ask him if hes willing to talk to you, but I'd have to tell him what kinda person you are and that might put him off... Plus, its not like it changes anything if a scientist examines him or not lol.
Wow, wouldn't that be awesome! I'm willing to donate some dough to fly Pad out to see the Chief's friend, anyone else with me? It would be the most entertaining thing I've ever seen on this forum. Pad, you could take a Flip camera and even pixelize out everyone's face. It could be like a poor man's Chronicle...
 

Chief Walkin Eagle

Well-Known Member
Wow, wouldn't that be awesome! I'm willing to donate some dough to fly Pad out to see the Chief's friend, anyone else with me? It would be the most entertaining thing I've ever seen on this forum. Pad, you could take a Flip camera and even pixelize out everyone's face. It could be like a poor man's Chronicle...
LOL Im down, its up to my friend though... Might be a tad bit disrespectful asking "Hey man, I know we got nothing to prove but this over the top skeptic wants to come down here and see if your a phony, you ok with that?"... I feel like a dick asking him to do this, but I'll do it.
 

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
LOL Im down, its up to my friend though... Might be a tad bit disrespectful asking "Hey man, I know we got nothing to prove but this over the top skeptic wants to come down here and see if your a phony, you ok with that?"... I feel like a dick asking him to do this, but I'll do it.
Already mentioned in another thread he can be tested for the $1 million prize and remain anonymous.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
lol Would you like to contact him? I have no control over his actions or motives, hes just a kid who wants to live his life care free and doesnt care for being a science experiment. He'd rather not have the attention too I'd imagine, since he got annoyed at my relevant curious questions. Fuck, if I had a fat bank account I would send you down here just to see the look on your face when you find out for yourself lol wouldnt even need to get all techy with the experiment, he'd just talk to you... If you wanna contact him and question him then I can ask him if hes willing to talk to you, but I'd have to tell him what kinda person you are and that might put him off... Plus, its not like it changes anything if a scientist examines him or not lol.
Absolutely I would. And if he's your friend, I don't see why he wouldn't do it for you if you asked him to. He will remain anonymous and earn that $1 million prize pool that's at stake. If he doesn't want the money, tell him you do or to donate it to a charity. To someone who actually has the abilities you claim he has, this really should be an absolute no brainer.
 

Chief Walkin Eagle

Well-Known Member
Absolutely I would. And if he's your friend, I don't see why he wouldn't do it for you if you asked him to. He will remain anonymous and earn that $1 million prize pool that's at stake. If he doesn't want the money, tell him you do or to donate it to a charity. To someone who actually has the abilities you claim he has, this really should be an absolute no brainer.
I want him to take that challenge just as much as you do, could get a lot of things accomplished with that money. I dont know his motives though, perhaps theres some rule he has to follow that doesnt let him use his abilities to attain wealth, I do not know.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
I want him to take that challenge just as much as you do, could get a lot of things accomplished with that money. I dont know his motives though, perhaps theres some rule he has to follow that doesnt let him use his abilities to attain wealth, I do not know.
Yeah, there's always 'some rule' they have to follow, or some reason they can't prove it to the public... Do you know what that 'rule' or reason is?






































Because they can't. They know they can't, and they know that by attempting to prove it, they'll be discovered to be a fraud. It happens to all of them, with no exceptions. From dowsing to thetan readers to psychics to fortune tellers, all of them.

I anxiously await your response. What's the hold up on his reply anyway? Does your friend have a cell phone?
 

Chief Walkin Eagle

Well-Known Member
Yeah, there's always 'some rule' they have to follow, or some reason they can't prove it to the public... Do you know what that 'rule' or reason is?






































Because they can't. They know they can't, and they know that by attempting to prove it, they'll be discovered to be a fraud. It happens to all of them, with no exceptions. From dowsing to thetan readers to psychics to fortune tellers, all of them.

I anxiously await your response. What's the hold up on his reply anyway? Does your friend have a cell phone?
lol I dont know if theres a rule man, I was just suggesting the possibility. Maybe its because you shouldnt need a supernatural act to be performed in order for you to believe in god because your dumbass should already know =p. I dont know if he has a cellphone, he moved to work in Edmonton so Im assuming he does now, I just messaged him on facebook.
Sooo if your skeptic buddies raise up some money and you come down here, and you see the truth for yourself, what will you do? How would that proof change your world view? Would you feel scared and helpless because science turned out to be a very tiny fraction of reality and you spent your life learning about something that doesnt even matter when it comes to the big picture? What would you continue to do knowing that a lot of things that you thought to be woowoo bullshit was actually the truth?
 

afrawfraw

Well-Known Member
lol I dont know if theres a rule man, I was just suggesting the possibility. Maybe its because you shouldnt need a supernatural act to be performed in order for you to believe in god because your dumbass should already know =p.
ZZZZZZZZZZZZ...huh, what? Surely you jest?
 
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