Does Self Exist? What is the proof?

[Doer]

In the world's scripture there is often reference to "know self." And you can even read into it, that it is the basis of the particular religion. The "enlightened one" makes a great deal about it. It's often found among the, very few, direct quotes.

But, what is the big deal? Don't know, so let's ignore that and have our Religion.

But, it is a big deal, right? It's the only deal we have. Self.

"I think, therefore I am."

OK, a start. But, with training, or with a peak experience of some kind, we can have periods of non-thought that are difficult to acheive but worth risking death. And we still exist. Self must be more than thinking. But, if we have an Objective Reality that is defined solely by how our sense interprets the physics., does Reality cease when we experience non-thought. I say it begins.

So self is not thinking, feeling, sensing, operating and manipulating. Self is more than that, right? What say you?

What is existence? In dreamless sleep, I still exist, or do, "I?"

 

[Doer]

yeah i totally agree with op when we sleep and don't dream we don't exist. but then our cells congregate like 5 min before waking up. last night my lady went to bed before me and when i went in there she was gone but she was there in the morning. explain that bible.

Yeah, it's like nothing and then a switch. Boom. Cognition. We used to play that asphyxiation game. No not auto erotic hanging.

This is a technique where the subject takes deep breaths, holds a comfortable 1/2 breath and the helper pinches off gently, his cartorid arteries from behind. You pass out, but still breathing, the martial arts choke off. Then release the arteries, the supercharged, oxygen rich blood, hits the brain and the experience is weird to say the least. But, not un-pleasant.

I was a hippy then and explicitly trusted everyone in the room. I would not try this today, with so-called friends. You are completely helpless and thoughtless. You come to with no Reality. That's what's weird. I remember once I came around, it only takes a few seconds, but :

Without recall of any past or anticipation of future, Reality was very 2D, a white un-focused expanse. New born. And I was on a ocean of waves. That turned out, after a few more seconds of pure wonder, (no fear,) to be the natural joshing and giggling of the crowd holding me up. I had been unaware of even that. They had lifted me up bodily, flat on my back to 1" from the the celling, completely without my knowledge.

 

[Zaehet Strife]

I think we all need to take into consideration that there was a time when there was no consciousness in the universe, matter had not yet evolved to incorporate this. So if at one point there are no conscious beings to observe the universe, would this not mean that the universe would cease to exist as it would not be observable by anything?

This is a rhetorical question, written to make others think, that is all.

 

[Doer]

Yes, yes, not defending a position, I totally agree with that. So, then in the same spirit, may I say, that one could then extend the concept of Observer a bit farther? It is certainly far fetched, but some are suggesting somehow, the Universe is self aware and thus is the Observer. And these concepts are just emerging across several lines of thinking, as I read it.

What part we play in the Self Awareness, I'll not attempt to conjecture.

wkipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_universe_hypothesis

http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2010/09/much-ado-about-ldquonothingrdquo-stephen-hawking-and-the-self-creating-universe

 

[high|hgih]

I think that we all exist regardless our thoughts. Plants go dormant.. Bear hibernate.. Humans go into comas

This universe is weird, it intertwines too perfectly.. Decomposrs, Consumers, Producers, back over again..
decomposers have no conscious. Galaxies are known to be cannibals, digesting other galaxies. Everything is just trying to make its way, including you.

Consciousness is irrelevant. In the end, that rock on your porch served probably more of a purpose than you did

 

[Doer]

I think that we all exist regardless our thoughts. Plants go dormant.. Bear hibernate.. Humans go into comas

This universe is weird, it intertwines too perfectly.. Decomposrs, Consumers, Producers, back over again..
decomposers have no conscious. Galaxies are known to be cannibals, digesting other galaxies. Everything is just trying to make its way, including you.

Consciousness is irrelevant. In the end, that rock on your porch served probably more of a purpose than you did

You said you think that. The question, is Obervation necessary for existance? You think, you are, you think.

 

[Dislexicmidget2021]

In the world's scripture there is often reference to "know self." And you can even read into it, that it is the basis of the particular religion. The "enlightened one" makes a great deal about it. It's often found among the, very few, direct quotes.

But, what is the big deal? Don't know, so let's ignore that and have our Religion.

But, it is a big deal, right? It's the only deal we have. Self.

"I think, therefore I am."

OK, a start. But, with training, or with a peak experience of some kind, we can have periods of non-thought that are difficult to acheive but worth risking death. And we still exist. Self must be more than thinking. But, if we have an Objective Reality that is defined solely by how our sense interprets the physics., does Reality cease when we experience non-thought. I say it begins.

So self is not thinking, feeling, sensing, operating and manipulating. Self is more than that, right? What say you?

What is existence? In dreamless sleep, I still exist, or do, "I?"

Before a person has a thought,there is nothing,everything in this world is the perception.Thoughts determine or makeup a persons world,whether they are logical thoughts or totaly skitzoid.The truest nature of mind,is the steady state of being without the illusion of thoughts.We live in the dream,a self awareness dream without full clarity to be lucid in this dream,that is until you practice the clarity through meditation.Existence is nothing,until we give it meaning with ones own perception IMO.Self is a part of that nothing,we have the 5 senses telling us so many things all at once,it is no wonder that we could be fully convinced that existence or reality is certainly more than nothing,Ever had a lucid dream while awake?More difficult than lucid dreaming or at leaste to me it is.And when i say nothing,try not to take it into a negative or positive context,it simply is nothing.

 

[scroglodyte]

i drink, therefore i am

 

[cannabineer]

Related questions precipitate delightful geekery. cn

http://www.sciencechatforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=88&t=10869&start=0
[url]http://blog.lib.umn.edu/clar0841/psychblog2012/2012/02/does-a-conscious-self-exist.html
[/URL]

 

[eye exaggerate]

i drink, therefore i am

...I smoke, therefore, I cannot remember.

 

[cannabineer]

Cogito ergo ... something. cn

 

[Dr.J20]

Cogito ergo ... something. cn

or, even more skeptically, cogito cogito ergo cogito sum (i think i think, therefore i think i am)

 

[cannabineer]

or, even more skeptically, cogito cogito ergo cogito sum (i think i think, therefore i think i am)

Cogito cogitare, ergo cogito esse. (Unlike English, Latin has actual grammar.) cn

 

[drive]

You said you think that. The question, is Obervation necessary for existance? You think, you are, you think.

No way man observation is irrelevent for existance. the universe has existed for billions of years before us. IDK if dinosaurs were self aware. Trilobites wrote no poetry but the big wheel kept on turning. I think we humans are the only ones that have the intellectual spark

 

[Doer]

No way man observation is irrelevent for existance. the universe has existed for billions of years before us. IDK if dinosaurs were self aware. Trilobites wrote no poetry but the big wheel kept on turning. I think we humans are the only ones that have the intellectual spark

Well, let us ponder. There is no way for you to know any of this factually as you state it. We conjecture the age of the universe based on Newtonian scientific principles that are quite incomplete imo. We found and now use quantum principles. The mind seems to be a quantum artifact. The old science is technique for measuring macro effects like orbits and gas mileage. Works fine, as tech. Quantum science is the new science, though the old science is still useful.

In that way, quantum speak is beyond metaphysics, in that it has measurable and tech-able, macro effects. We Observe and therefore create what we call reality. Sorry, it's very hard to grasp, because it contains principles that are "outrageous." Yet they can be observed by anyone. (check the Sci and Tech section here for stuff Quantum Science.)

So, as you said, you think all that is so, but there is no proof. Only Now exists. To pattern there "was" a reality that was Not conceived by the perceivers of Now is not correct in a very fundamental sense. We only imagine this so called Past. We see the entropy, call that time, we decide on durations to measure that, we preserve records, but the past is gone. And, we are not talking about intelligence here or poetry, only Observation or so called Self Awareness.

In Quantum speak, matter is self aware. It has the property of Inertia which is it's awareness of all other matter in the universe. Mach's Principle. All the meager quantum tech we now have takes advantage of this "self awareness" of matter regardless of distance. Weird, huh?

 

[Doer]

i drink, therefore i am

Hear hear! I'll drink to that!

 

[drive]

Many animals on our planet can recognize themselves in a mirror so do you think this makes them self aware. If they are do you believe they have the ability to know themselves is it possible that they have the cognitive ability to truely know their place in the universe?

 

[Doer]

Many animals on our planet can recognize themselves in a mirror so do you think this makes them self aware. If they are do you believe they have the ability to know themselves is it possible that they have the cognitive ability to truely know their place in the universe?

Quantum self awareness. The rock on the porch is aware though it's inertia. You seem to be substituting. Not cognition. Awareness. The matter in the universe is ,aware of itself, through inertia.

Heisenberg showed that location of electron "particles" is Uncertain. Later they prove that even the time sense of electrons is Uncertain. It is the Observation that cause the Uncertainty to be, for the moment, only, Certain. Only Now is certain. Only the self-awareness of Now in a quantum sense, by matter creates Now.

So, if there is no Space, there can be no matter. It would just this vast block of dense "matter" with no "space." Matter is self aware and follows our rules of existence on a maco sense. That seems to be, until the limit. To the point where Uncertainty rules.

That is, our actual reality, time and space, etc, end a the edge of the atom, as I see it. If there was no matter, there can be no space, because space is the distance between matter, right? I know. To most, quantum speak is still unusually similar to woo woo. But, mind over matter, right? The mind is not matter, right? OK.

 

[cannabineer]

That seems to me to be an odd definition of awareness. I would say, tongue in cheek, that inertia and space imbue the rock with a whereness. cn

 

[Doer]

Man, you are on a roll. It is this thinking, on the humor side that unlock concepts of brilliance. Can't think when we are laughing. How correct this turn of phrase. And I will add this to this list of imponderable puns. Of, course, it is the inertial field that tells us all where we a-are. A-where, as such, are we? Obviously the word is mis-spelled. I see that now.

IAC, the concept is from this basis and is in the quantum math.

"Mach's principle says that this is not a coincidence—that there is a physical law that relates the motion of the distant stars to the local inertial frame. Mach suggests that there is some physical law which would make it so you would feel a centrifugal force. There are a number of rival formulations of the principle. It is often stated in vague ways, like "mass out there influences inertia here". A very general statement of Mach's principle is "Local physical laws are determined by the large-scale structure of the universe."[SUP][2][/SUP] This concept was a guiding factor in Einstein's development of the general theory of relativity."

So, in the quantum investigations, non-locality and non-casuality can be demonstrated. Remote effects can be demonstrated. And the path seems to me to lead me to understand that the only thing about existence to make it seem real, to us, is the existence itself, is being observed. Will you agree that is metaphysical to say that there are certain people that posses a power of communicating mind to mind? (like my mother)

But, it is another thing to have a working Qbit computer. Capable of near instant speed of result. Computations occurring in all quantum states at once. Variable passing in a non-causal reality.

It is another thing to align remote laser pair frequency by manipulating the concepts of spin and locality pairs. To have instant, lagless digitally modulate communication at laser bandwidth.

As soon as a state change occurs it is patterned instantly without regard to time or distance. It is the self awareness. Not woo. woo hoo.