cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
Esoteric puns are the best puns. 
cn
cn
Fracking
- Thread starter oldtimer54
- Start date
WyoGrow
Active Member
"I just hoped, you being in the biz, that there may be a Fraking 101, for Dummies or some such. Do you know of anything general, an FAQ maybe, that has not already been corrupted with the fear?"
Really the basic procedure is pretty simple. Water, or diesel in some cases, is treated and viscosified to carry "prop" (a fancy term for sand) is pumped into the formation containing the oil or gas under pressures great enough to fracture the formation. The fluid carrying the prop is force into the fractures created in the formation rock and those fractures are held open by the prop. Making it easier to recover the oil or gas in that formation.
What is not brought up is that the oil and or gas is contained inside that zone because it's a permeable formation with a non-permeable (solid) formation above and below it. If there wasn't the non-permeable formations above and below the oil and gas could just go where it wanted to..... I am currently on a drilling project where we are drilling horizontal wells parallel to each other with as little at 100 yards separating some of the wells. These wells are fractured using standard "fracing" methods. If this myth that fracing shatters the earth from 5000 plus feet under ground up to the mean water table depth of less than 1000'. Through numerous solid non-permeable rock formations. Then wouldn't it stand to reason that when we frac on well it would travel through the permeable formation that contains the oil and gas and interfere or communicate with a well less than 400' feet away???? In fact the frac is isolate to the point that we can frac both wells and never fracture the rock all the way between the two wells. Food for thought right there. Out of 70 something wells that fit this the above description..... not a one is experiencing communication with it neighboring well. "Communication" is the industry term for pressure, fluid... anything traveling from one isolated place to another. Be it formation, annular communication, tubing or casing failures and from one well to another.
Really the basic procedure is pretty simple. Water, or diesel in some cases, is treated and viscosified to carry "prop" (a fancy term for sand) is pumped into the formation containing the oil or gas under pressures great enough to fracture the formation. The fluid carrying the prop is force into the fractures created in the formation rock and those fractures are held open by the prop. Making it easier to recover the oil or gas in that formation.
What is not brought up is that the oil and or gas is contained inside that zone because it's a permeable formation with a non-permeable (solid) formation above and below it. If there wasn't the non-permeable formations above and below the oil and gas could just go where it wanted to..... I am currently on a drilling project where we are drilling horizontal wells parallel to each other with as little at 100 yards separating some of the wells. These wells are fractured using standard "fracing" methods. If this myth that fracing shatters the earth from 5000 plus feet under ground up to the mean water table depth of less than 1000'. Through numerous solid non-permeable rock formations. Then wouldn't it stand to reason that when we frac on well it would travel through the permeable formation that contains the oil and gas and interfere or communicate with a well less than 400' feet away???? In fact the frac is isolate to the point that we can frac both wells and never fracture the rock all the way between the two wells. Food for thought right there. Out of 70 something wells that fit this the above description..... not a one is experiencing communication with it neighboring well. "Communication" is the industry term for pressure, fluid... anything traveling from one isolated place to another. Be it formation, annular communication, tubing or casing failures and from one well to another.
WyoGrow
Active Member
You have to get through the water table to get to the formations containing the oil or gas 99.9% of the time. I've drilled on god knows how many locations where the water well supplying the rig was drilled less that 150' away from the wellhead. Not once have I seen drilling mud come up out of the water well. Not to say it doesn't happen because it does. This portion of the drilling operation is called the "surface interval" and is ALWAYS drilled with a minimum of additives to the drilling fluid. Mainly bentonite as a viscosifier and some form of lost circulation material like cottonseed hulls, sawdust, cedar fiber, crushed walnut shells, pulped newspaper..... All non-toxic and non-reactive with fresh water. Whatever governmental body regulating drilling in that area(different in different areas) will dictate how deep you must set your surface interval casing in order to protect the water table. Every state I have worked in so far usually requires you to set the end of the casing (the shoe) in the nearest non-permeable formation closest to 1000' below the usable water table. Everywhere I have drilled also requires that the cement pumped to set the casing in place has to cover 100% of the annular space (the space between the casing and the wellbore wall) from the shoe all the way up to ground level. Almost all areas require a minimum of 8 hours to wait for the cement to set before you are allowed to drill out. Some require 12 hours. In some areas you have to wait 16.
Where unscrupulous operators cut corners is not all states require the operator to perform a formation integrity test at the proposed landing depth for the surface casing. They just drill to the minimum required depth, run casing and cement. The entire intent of a FIT is to make sure the formation that the surface casing is landed in can withstand the pressure it is going to experience during the drilling of the well. But not the fracing pressures.
Mind you every one of these wells you are hearing about on the news not only have surface casing. But they also have at least 1 more string of casing that is cemented called and intermediate string. Which by standard drilling procedures should also have a FIT preformed at the intermediate casings landing point. So not the water table in theory is protected by two strings of steel pipe and two separate cement applications holding them in place. Most intermediate cement jobs are not required to come all the way to surface. This is another place bad operators cut corners. Standard procedures dictate that you lift cement up to cover at least 200-300' above the casing shoe.
In most horizontal wells you have 3 sets of pipe (called strings). A surface interval, a intermediate interval and a production interval (long string). Most horizontal wells now do not cement the long string in favor of running mechanical packers at regular intervals that are activated by pressure to swell up and seal off the wellbore. In vertical wells you are required to cement the long string and that cement must cover all formations that the operator may want to test for oil or gas. Some operators cement horizontal wells but it isn't common because the wellbore is drilled horizontally through the formation that contains the oil or gas and they wish to avoid any possible formation damage due to cement intrusion into the production formation.
So now you have 3 strings of steel pipe. 2 of which should, in the normal coarse of the wells life, never see any pressure. Then you have at least 2 cement jobs holding the surface and intermediate pipe in place. Then the production casing is either held in place by cement or a series of mechanical packers that can withstand up to 15,000psi given what type is used. That is a lot of protection for the water table.
Where unscrupulous operators cut corners is not all states require the operator to perform a formation integrity test at the proposed landing depth for the surface casing. They just drill to the minimum required depth, run casing and cement. The entire intent of a FIT is to make sure the formation that the surface casing is landed in can withstand the pressure it is going to experience during the drilling of the well. But not the fracing pressures.
Mind you every one of these wells you are hearing about on the news not only have surface casing. But they also have at least 1 more string of casing that is cemented called and intermediate string. Which by standard drilling procedures should also have a FIT preformed at the intermediate casings landing point. So not the water table in theory is protected by two strings of steel pipe and two separate cement applications holding them in place. Most intermediate cement jobs are not required to come all the way to surface. This is another place bad operators cut corners. Standard procedures dictate that you lift cement up to cover at least 200-300' above the casing shoe.
In most horizontal wells you have 3 sets of pipe (called strings). A surface interval, a intermediate interval and a production interval (long string). Most horizontal wells now do not cement the long string in favor of running mechanical packers at regular intervals that are activated by pressure to swell up and seal off the wellbore. In vertical wells you are required to cement the long string and that cement must cover all formations that the operator may want to test for oil or gas. Some operators cement horizontal wells but it isn't common because the wellbore is drilled horizontally through the formation that contains the oil or gas and they wish to avoid any possible formation damage due to cement intrusion into the production formation.
So now you have 3 strings of steel pipe. 2 of which should, in the normal coarse of the wells life, never see any pressure. Then you have at least 2 cement jobs holding the surface and intermediate pipe in place. Then the production casing is either held in place by cement or a series of mechanical packers that can withstand up to 15,000psi given what type is used. That is a lot of protection for the water table.
WyoGrow
Active Member
Where the problem lies is the lack of firm regulation dictating how much cement must be pumped to set the intermediate string. And since cement costs money the operators if not required to pump any given amount will just pump enough to anchor the shoe. If the formation the shoe is set in is not FIT tested then the operator has no clue if it's even a solid landing point. In every one of the wells I have gone in a fixed, after the drilling rig was gone, that had communication into the surface casing. Bond logs showed that the cement pumped to set the intermediate string was minimal and had broken down under the stresses of production operations and geological forces. This isn't a massive issue because you still have and additional string of steel pipe and cement between the wellbore and the water table. Where you run into surface water contamination is when the surface cement job experiences hydraulic stress and it fractures and breaks down. But if the casing strings are set in good solid formations and cemented properly there is almost never an issue.
Mind you I say "almost never". Shit does happen. But if the well is being monitored properly the problem is recognized promptly and fixed.
Mind you I say "almost never". Shit does happen. But if the well is being monitored properly the problem is recognized promptly and fixed.
Doer
Well-Known Member
Got it. And thank you for the perfect level of detail.
It's a significant point that everything that is dug or drilled, large building foundations to oil to geo-thermal wells are thru the water tables. And like in the distribution question, that is, pipeline safety, or nuke safety, these are solved problems in engineering, but the construction of anything requires responsible people at every level.
Good to know.
It's a significant point that everything that is dug or drilled, large building foundations to oil to geo-thermal wells are thru the water tables. And like in the distribution question, that is, pipeline safety, or nuke safety, these are solved problems in engineering, but the construction of anything requires responsible people at every level.
Good to know.
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
Agreed. That really is the bottom line. cn
WyoGrow
Active Member
Not all operators are earth raping barbarians. A majority of them actually self impose a very strict set of in house regulations well above and beyond what is required by law. Being and independent contractor I can choose who I work for. The big outfits that are responsible for the majority of these mishaps are absolute pains in the ass to work for. Some even outright tell you to ignore regulations when and where you can. I can't name names though. Most of these huge companies have a firm presence on capitol hill to lobby for loopholes in order for them to operate under sub par procedures to maximize profit. The system needs changed. The standard procedures are already there. They just need to be enforced and followed.
WyoGrow
Active Member
"what do the big companies do settle with em outta court and make em sign a non-disclosure agreement so they can't go telling everyone how this company came in and destroyed their land, am I wrong? "
I want to address this part a bit more. In the case of oil and gas production. Almost ALL press is bad press. Oil and natural gas exploration and production is not without inherent risks and problems. But I can tell you for a fact the reason most companies prefer to settle out of court with a non-disclosure agreement isn't because they are always at fault or grave irreparable and irreversible damage has been done. It is because the modern media environment can and WILL blow every little thing out of proportion because it's a hot topic. Most of these companies are investor funded. Bad press chases away potential investors. So instead of taking a case to court that the company can win often the choose to settle with a NDA to prevent any media backlash. In every case I have known of personally that involved significant operator negligence it isn't like they hand the landowner a pile of cash and say "STFU and deal with it" and walk away. In every single case the operator has made a diligent effort to correct the problem as much as possible. In the end they are not above the law.... some skirt the fuck out of it and break it when the know nobody is looking though.
But on the exact issue of whether or not hydraulic fracturing in horizontal wells is safe for the environment (nothing is 100% safe mind you). Yes, it is. It's a proven process that has been in use for decades. Funny how all of the sudden it's a super humongous massive world ending issue.....
Here is a point to ponder. There are only a few major players in oil and gas. But there are hundreds of smaller independent operators all over the country. They compete with the big operators for oil and gas leases. Big business doesn't like competition. So if you invent a problem, get the people to go "oh shit.... no no no" over it w/o ever having a clue what they are actually against. Then all the hubbub prompts legislation to enforce stricter regulations. You drive up the cost of operating to the point that the smaller players can no longer afford to operate. Leaving all those leases up for grabs. Yes the big corporations now have to pay more per well..... but now they can drill a shitload more wells.
I want to address this part a bit more. In the case of oil and gas production. Almost ALL press is bad press. Oil and natural gas exploration and production is not without inherent risks and problems. But I can tell you for a fact the reason most companies prefer to settle out of court with a non-disclosure agreement isn't because they are always at fault or grave irreparable and irreversible damage has been done. It is because the modern media environment can and WILL blow every little thing out of proportion because it's a hot topic. Most of these companies are investor funded. Bad press chases away potential investors. So instead of taking a case to court that the company can win often the choose to settle with a NDA to prevent any media backlash. In every case I have known of personally that involved significant operator negligence it isn't like they hand the landowner a pile of cash and say "STFU and deal with it" and walk away. In every single case the operator has made a diligent effort to correct the problem as much as possible. In the end they are not above the law.... some skirt the fuck out of it and break it when the know nobody is looking though.
But on the exact issue of whether or not hydraulic fracturing in horizontal wells is safe for the environment (nothing is 100% safe mind you). Yes, it is. It's a proven process that has been in use for decades. Funny how all of the sudden it's a super humongous massive world ending issue.....
Here is a point to ponder. There are only a few major players in oil and gas. But there are hundreds of smaller independent operators all over the country. They compete with the big operators for oil and gas leases. Big business doesn't like competition. So if you invent a problem, get the people to go "oh shit.... no no no" over it w/o ever having a clue what they are actually against. Then all the hubbub prompts legislation to enforce stricter regulations. You drive up the cost of operating to the point that the smaller players can no longer afford to operate. Leaving all those leases up for grabs. Yes the big corporations now have to pay more per well..... but now they can drill a shitload more wells.
Dr Kynes
Well-Known Member
y u kant spll smpl wrds n mke an stmnt w/o usn txt-tlk?
after a considerable delay due to translating your ramblings into language rather than bleating and fart noises, i have summed up your dim-witted gibberings into a few (sort of) salient points:
econauts are not just hippies looking for some specious reason to protest
wyo should ignore his professed expertise and first hand knowledge on the subject, and listen to the claims of the good people at HBO instead.
farmers raise beef ????? what???
the fracking proces uses "chems" (mostly buffout and psycho i'm assuming)
what do you call it when you hit a pressurized aquifer and water comes up with the evil drilling chemicals in it? (drilling chemicals?)
why dont you talk about how evil you are when you hit a small subsurface aquifer with your drilling chemicals? (what the fuck?)
whats with those pits? (im assuming he means water runoff pools)
whats up with those misters to make your chems (med-ex and rad-away) evaporate more quickly?
where do you put all your mentat, and stimpack laden water when you're done with it?
if your processes are so good, why keep them secret? (Y kant I haz sum understanding proprietary technology)
what about some dude whose name i cant remember who did something evil that i cant remember who did something else i cant remember but you now have to justify it?
what about the sacred national parks and shit?
why are big corporations are evil and being all corporationey in their corporation buildings with their corporation money they stole by being a corporation?
now heres some speculation, that i just made up but, isnt it true that maybe im not sure how anything works, but my opinion is more important than anybody else's??
what about non-disclosure agreement s and mineral rights? somebody explain the universe to me but use small words and lotsa pictures cuz im ignorant and have no attention span!
im gonna ignore most of your nonsensical ramblings and gibbering madness, and actually answer the only cogent question you raised.
Yes, some people buy land and do NOT retain the mineral rights. many times the mineral rights on a particular property are reserved to another person, company or even a governmental agency. usually these mineral rights DO NOT come with the right to drill mine or even access the land under which the presupposed minerals or oil reside. if the owner of the mineral rights wishes to exploit the minerals (if they even exist) they must buy adjoining land,, or negotiate for the right of access with the land owner. this is very common, especially in the west. farmers and ranchers (people who "farm" cows) will often allow oil or gas wells on their property for a fee, even if they dont own the mineral rights under their feet. if the oil gas or mining concern contaminates their land, the farmer or rancher is compensated, the mess is cleaned up and all sides agree to not discuss it for their MUTUAL protection. any farmer or rancher who has been fucked by an oil or gas company can sue the shit out of them, win and talk to their heart's content about how they got fucked by XYZ company. non-disclosure agreements are not exclusive to oil and gas companies, they are usually part of any out of court settlement, and are common as dirt.
Protip: learn to actually write in english rather than tardspeak!
go buy a book and read it, any book, even "twilight" will increase your brain power. stop watching tv, and just read ANYTHING
Dr Kynes
Well-Known Member
shit son i dont know how you actually responded to that gibberish. it made me hyper-rage with it's ignorance stupidity and lack of any recognizable grammar.
youre much more patient with dolts than I am.
Dr Kynes
Well-Known Member
i bet you can Mc Guyver up the killer bongs.
Red1966
Well-Known Member
Personally, I would like to thank WyoGrow for his informative postings. To often, the only source of information/disinformation we get is emotional, biased, and/or partisan blather from people that have no idea what they're talking about. I would like to ask two questions of WyoGrow. How much of an increase in yield does this process give us? I've heard that this process could make us energy self-reliant for more than 100 years. Is this true?
WyoGrow
Active Member
I assume you are talking about fracing. I really depends on how tight the formation is that contains the oil. The easy, free flowing stuff has already been produced. Fracing will take a well that is swab tested @ 10-15bbl (42gal) a day before fracing and increase i'ts production 10 times. SO instead of making 10bbl a day now you are making 100.
Now the horizontal drilling is what is exciting. Oil and gas producing zones are only so thick. Conventional vertical drilling only exposes the thickness of the zone to being produced. Drilling horizontally through the zone of interest exposes 1000's of feet of the zone to be produced. In conventional production terms, one 16 stage horizontal well stand to produce over 16 times the amount of oil and gas that a conventional vertical well would. All for the cost and resources used for just one well. Horizontal drilling has made domestic oil production viable. If we were still using old vertical wells.... it would just not be fiscally feesable to drill.
On the "self reliant" part.... the oil, natural gas and coal deposits in North America are extensive enough for our countries (US & Canada) do operate at the current rate of growth for 120 or so years. But it would mean a serious hike in fuel and electricity prices.
Now the horizontal drilling is what is exciting. Oil and gas producing zones are only so thick. Conventional vertical drilling only exposes the thickness of the zone to being produced. Drilling horizontally through the zone of interest exposes 1000's of feet of the zone to be produced. In conventional production terms, one 16 stage horizontal well stand to produce over 16 times the amount of oil and gas that a conventional vertical well would. All for the cost and resources used for just one well. Horizontal drilling has made domestic oil production viable. If we were still using old vertical wells.... it would just not be fiscally feesable to drill.
On the "self reliant" part.... the oil, natural gas and coal deposits in North America are extensive enough for our countries (US & Canada) do operate at the current rate of growth for 120 or so years. But it would mean a serious hike in fuel and electricity prices.
WyoGrow
Active Member
I'm kind of a dick that likes to verbally demolish morons..... and it really wasn't that much of an effort.
budsmoker87
New Member
I haven't been on a frac crew but I have been on a surface well rig. The solutions that the mud engineers mixed with our drilling water was calcium nitrite and polymer...sometimes, if we were loosing a significant amount of water (indicative of a leak downhole) we'd mix sawdust with the water, and on occasion I'd be responsible to mix a bag of gel very slowly into the mudshaker water tank (forget exactly what it is...very fine powder that gels up the water).
I know nothing from personal experience about chemicals used in fracking operations...of course gas is going to leak up...mind you these chemicals during frack jobs are going 18,000-35,000 feet downhole in the bakken % 3 forks formation oilfields....WAAAY below table (drinking) water.
The water at the man camp SUCKED (all treated municipal water tastes like shit)...I drank perrier that I bought at williston walmart on the rig
I know nothing from personal experience about chemicals used in fracking operations...of course gas is going to leak up...mind you these chemicals during frack jobs are going 18,000-35,000 feet downhole in the bakken % 3 forks formation oilfields....WAAAY below table (drinking) water.
The water at the man camp SUCKED (all treated municipal water tastes like shit)...I drank perrier that I bought at williston walmart on the rig
Doer
Well-Known Member
Yeah, the way people are talking you'd think they are using cigarette smoke and auto exhaust for fracking.
I always wondered how they turn the drill to make the bend to run horizontal. You must have to pull the string and put on a different drill, or something?
If so, what is the difference and how do they control, point, steer it?
cliffey501
Active Member
You pull your drill string and run directional tools and mud motors down.Directional tools basically look like a knuckle.The direction(azimuth and elevation) are controlled from surface with pump pressure and rotation.
