Ongoing issue with leaves Explored all avenues, no solution. Expert advice needed

[obijohn]

I've posted about this before, Helping a friend with their grow. Been to three hydro shops and showed pictures, so far everyone is stumped.

First the details, outdoors, Ocean Forest in 10 gallon pots. Grow Big and Big Bloom used for nutes, and we've been using a compost tea regularly. Plants love it, but the yellowing, bronzing and necrotic spots keep spreading. Tap water is on the alkaline side, so they flushed with sledgehammer and didnt feed for 10 days, thinking it may be nute burn, and have been adjusting the ph of the water since...although water from the tap has been used in years past with no ph issues. One hydro guy thought it may be cal mag, so cal mag supplements have been added every two days over the past week. There was a whitefly infestation, neem oil fixed that...no mites or any pest or pest damage visible.

Only other info that may or may not help, they were put outside mid may and started flowering, and then started revegging past few weeks, first single blade leaves, and now back to normal. Here are the pics below, can anyone offer any insight? New leaves are fine, the damage seems to be in the middle leaves

 

[Fungus Gnat]

Did they spray the neem or something else on the leaves?

 

[dvs1038]

I have a similar looking issue on my plants I was thinking it was just nute burn as well, I'm using FF grow big, and Big Bloom.

 

[obijohn]

Mine are similar, the spots just arent that big. But they are turning brown and crispy. As I said, don't think its burn because no feeding for 10 days after flushing, and in the past when we did have nute burn, it looked a bit different and started on the edges. And really, they haven't need much food anyway

Neem oil was sprayed after his started...and of course t night so it wouldnt burn the leaves

 

[boombats]

I have a similar looking issue on my plants I was thinking it was just nute burn as well, I'm using FF grow big, and Big Bloom.
View attachment 2254057

this one looks like major light burn..... but im going to assume you ruled that factor out already.... that seems like you moved them into the flowering room from a weaker light they were not used to the intense light and burned that set of veg,,,,, the new veg seems fine.... thats what your main concern whould stay with, the new veg





as for the OP anytime i go outdoors I often get similar issues thats why I have always liked my indoor grows the spotting is beyond what I could safely diagnose..... I woulda thought maybe magnified water beads left from nighttime moisture.... im no outdoor expert

 

[jessy koons]

It looks like it might be Calcium def. It tends to show up on older leaves, rarely new leaves. What minerals are dissolved in your water?

 

[obijohn]

As I said, we have been adding cal mag supplements past week or so

 

[angryblackman]

Any chance there are time release nutes in the soil?

 

[obijohn]

Not with Ocean Forest out of the bag. They've been in the same soil since April, although have been transplanted several times. In past experience, nute burn just browns and crisps, it doesnt go thru this slow process of yellowing in the middle of the leaves, and then browning.

I had thought of them being rootbound, but never had that issue in ten gallon containers, and several were just transplanted into ten gallons less than a week ago. I dunno, all I can think of is to flush again, but it did nothing last time....2 or so weeks ago

 

[jessy koons]

As I said, we have been adding cal mag supplements past week or so

I read that. Thank you.

Calcium supplements aren't going to do anything to correct the damaged leaves. They will not have any noticeable effect in only a week. They will only prevent different, older leaves from continuing to malfunction. Best of luck, cowboy

 

[obijohn]

I read that. Thank you.

Calcium supplements aren't going to do anything to correct the damaged leaves. They will not have any noticeable effect in only a week. They will only prevent different, older leaves from continuing to malfunction. Best of luck, cowboy

Thanks for that info. I know it isnt going to fix whats already damaged. Leaves are still going bad, guess Ill cross my fingers and hope it is cal mag and that its going to take some time. I have looked at all the charts showing what leaves look like with certain deficiencies, and nothing matches. Not even cal mag, but it is the closest. Just seems weird that with the same setup in years past it's never been an issue. maybe I got some off bags of FF?

 

[jessy koons]

Do you know what has changed in your water? If the pH has changed then this could be a sign.

 

[obijohn]

The water has always been on the alkaline side past 3 years but never had a problem. We have the water ph tester that's color coded, sometimes this year it comes out blue, sometimes dark green, so it varies. We've been adjusting it to be a light lime green. Major pain in the ass, six ten gal buckets are easy to soak in a few minutes with a hose, adjusting water in a two gallon waterer and soaking all the plants multiple times a day sucks. If I could rule out PH id go back to the hose....but maybe the alkalinity was locking out cal mag?

 

[hellraizer30]

Cant tell yah how many people i have helped or tryed to that was having issues of the same sort
it all boils down to ffof and ff nutes. There not what they used to be, ff has under gone a few plant
changes and asembly location changes, during this time there soil mixes have changed. You can take
10 bags of ffof and test the ph right out of the bag and it will be in the low 5 range. Not so buano!!
this leads to issue later in the grow cycle, ffof is so loaded with junk and wack ratios causing burns and
ph swings ang ph lock ups. Yellowing of leaves and cal mag spots like yours obijohn. My opion to you
is ditch ffof and ff nutes and go get botanicair ready grow and technoflora bc line of nutes, and enjoy
growing with no hassle

But if your sold with where your at then i will ask a few ?

Ppm of your run off?
ph of your run off?
ph of what your feeding?
ppm of what your feeding?
are you useing r/o water?
whats the base ph of your tap water?

 

[obijohn]

I've been told by several hydro shops the ph of the runoff doesn't matter, it's what you put in. No idea about ppm, I thought that was mostly important for hydro. But the tap water is what it is.

As far as ph, the water tester ranges from dark green to almost blue out of the tap, although its been that way in years past and never been an issue. But since the flush, we have been ph'ing all water to lime green, around 6.5. And definitely using ph up when feeding, nutes acidifying the water to yellow/orange. And the cal mag every other day, wanna cover all my bases. Ph'ing the watering can 10 times a day is major pain in the ass, but whatever it takes.

I did ask about Maxsea, but was told its generally not a good idea to switch the type of nutes you use mid stream.

As I said, years past we've used the exact same setup with no issues, so....Ocean Forest? Been going to different hydro shops to get a variety of opinions, last one I went to said Fox Farms had a bad batch of Ocean Forest earlier this year, said he thought some even got recalled, so that's a possibility. But yet we bought all the bags in April and have been using it since, and the problems just started maybe a month ago,,so who knows?

 

[hellraizer30]

The run off is uber important! One thing bro stop listening to grow store advise!
All im trying to do is help and i feel you should finish up this grow and put ff
products in the rear view mirror!

 

[obijohn]

BTW, here is the water info I got

DETECTED PRIMARY DRINKING WATER CONSTITUENTS regulated to protect your health
CONSTITUENT UNITS
PHG or
(MCLG)
or
[MRDLG]
MCL or
[MRDL]
San Juan Surface Water

MAJOR RESOURCES
RANGE AVERAGE YEAR
SAMPLED RANGE AVERAGE YEAR SAMPLED RANGE AVERAGE YEAR SAMPLED
Arsenic PPB 0.004 10 ND ND 2010 ND–4.1 ND 2008, 2010 2.2–2.9 2.6 2006–2009 Erosion of natural deposits
Barium PPM 2 1 0.1 0.1 2010 ND ND 2008, 2010 ND ND 2006–2009 Erosion of natural deposits
Fluoride PPM 1 2.0 ND ND 2011 ND–0.26 0.12 2008, 2009,
2010 0.1 0.1 2006–2009 Erosion of natural deposits
Nitrate (as nitrate) PPM 45 45 ND ND 2011 4.4–12 7.8 2011 1.2–2.4 2 2007–2011
Runoff and leaching from
fertilizer use; leaching from
septic tanks and sewage;
erosion of natural deposits
Asbestos MFL 7 7 ND–0.2 ND 2011 ND ND 2009 ND ND 2008, 2009 Erosion of natural deposits
Chlorine Residual
(distribution system) PPM [4] [4] 0.19–1.22
(0.66–1.14)
0.76
(0.73) 2011 0.24–1.76 0.8 2011 0.24–1.11 0.68 2011 Drinking water disinfectant
added for treatment
Total Trihalomethanes
(distribution system) PPB N/A 80 39–59
(31–69)
50
(41) 2011 ND–72 54 2011 30–49 42 2011 By-product of drinking
water disinfection
Haloacetic Acids
(distribution system) PPB N/A 60 25–34
(17–36)
30
(30) 2011 ND–46 33 2011 26–46 34 2011 By-product of drinking
water disinfection
Control of Disinfection
By-Product Precursors (TOC)
(raw water) (b)
PPM N/A TT = 2 1.2–1.7 1.4 2011 NR N/A N/A NR N/A N/A Various natural and
manmade sources
CONSTITUENT UNITS PHG or
(MCLG)
MCL LEVEL FOUND YEAR
SAMPLED LEVEL FOUND YEAR SAMPLED LEVEL FOUND YEAR SAMPLED MAJOR SOURCES
Turbidity (b)
NTU NONE TT = 1
NTU 0.074 2011 NR N/A NR N/A
Soil runoff
%
Samples NONE
TT =
≤0.3
NTU
99.9989 2011 NR N/A NR N/A
UNITS PHG or
(MCLG) AL
90th
PERCENTILE
# SAMPLED/
# EXCEED
AL
YEAR
SAMPLED
90th
PERCENTILE
#
SAMPLED/
# EXCEED
AL
YEAR SAMPLED 90th
PERCENTILE
# SAMPLED/
# EXCEED AL YEAR SAMPLED MAJOR SOURCES
Copper PPM 0.3 1.3 ND
(0.085)
30/0
(30/0)
2009
(2009) ND 30/0 2009 ND 30/0 2010
Internal corrosion of
household plumbing systems;
erosion of natural deposits
DETECTED SECONDARY DRINKING WATER CONSTITUENTS regulated for aesthetic qualities
CONSTITUENT UNITS PHG or
(MCLG)
MCL
er
MAJOR SOURCES
RANGE AVERAGE YEAR
SAMPLED RANGE AVERAGE YEAR SAMPLED RANGE AVERAGE YEAR SAMPLED
Odor UNITS N/A 3 ND ND 2011 ND ND 2008, 2010 1 1 2006–2009 Naturally occurring
organic materials
Chloride PPM N/A 500 2.1– 3.1 2.8 2011 10–21 16.2 2008, 2010 2.9–23 6.8 2006–2009 Runoff/leaching from
natural deposits
Specific Conductance μS/CM N/A 1,600 63–85 72 2011 230–380 304 2008, 2010 120–550 228 2006–2009 Substances that form
ions when in water
Sulfate PPM N/A 500 4.0–7.3 5.9 2011 7.5–11 9.5 2008, 2010 3.8–28 10.8 2006–2009 Runoff/leaching from
natural deposits
Turbidity NTU N/A 5 0.02–0.074 0.045 2011 ND–0.32 0.12 2008, 2010 0.22–0.64 0.39 2006–2009 Soil runoff
Total Dissolved Solids PPM N/A 1,000 28–54 41 2011 200–280 224 2008, 2010 100–400 180 2006–2009 Runoff/leaching from
natural deposits
DETECTED UNREGULATED DRINKING WATER CONSTITUENTS (c)
CONSTITUENT UNITS PHG or
(MCLG)
NL

MAJOR SOURCES
RANGE AVERAGE YEAR
SAMPLED RANGE AVERAGE YEAR SAMPLED RANGE AVERAGE YEAR SAMPLED
Hardness PPM N/A NONE 27–39 31 2011 89–140 112 2008, 2010 48–210 89 2006–2009
Hardness is the sum of
polyvalent cations present
in the water, generally
naturally occurring
magnesium and calcium.
Sodium PPM N/A NONE 1.9–2.9 2.5 2011 11–23 18.2 2008, 2010 4.9–32 11.5 2006–2009 Naturally occurring
salt in the water
Calcium PPM N/A NONE 8.2–12 9.5 2011 21– 33 25.4 2008, 2010 12–43 20.1 2006–2009 Erosion of natural deposits
Magnesium PPM N/A NONE 1.3–2.4 1.7 2011 8.7–16 12.1 2008, 2010 4.4–25 9.4 2006–2009 Erosion of natural deposits
Radon 222 pCi/L NONE NONE ND ND 2006 165–304 231 1999–2009 114–333 215 2005 Erosion of natural deposits

 

[F A B]

The run off is uber important! One thing bro stop listening to grow store advise!
All im trying to do is help and i feel you should finish up this grow and put ff
products in the rear view mirror!

i aint heard nothing but people having issues with ff products
whats the deal
used to be those were fighting words here
did company lose their direction?

btw bro i got a new dwc build going on might need some advice

 

[hellraizer30]

i aint heard nothing but people having issues with ff products
whats the deal
used to be those were fighting words here
did company lose their direction?

btw bro i got a new dwc build going on might need some advice

Sinse they moved the factory thing have gone down hill! Grow stores push there stuff hardcore,
over better products that are there. Why i never listen to them, 90% of them dont even grow.

Ask away bro!

 

[obijohn]

So the water info is all Greek to me. So you thinking its a ph issue?