Vertical kinda sucks

[DrGreener]

lol ok again 5 plants = 6 pounds his what 180 plants lol from clone into flower not sure on how many scrolled thru out and not one plant in there here check out this out http://www.hg-hydroponics.co.uk/eco-system-300-plant-vertical-system-115-p.asp
you mention less wasted light here i should almost start a journal 5000 plant 1000 watt start from clones and veg one week flip i bet i get 3 grams dry per plant x 5000 plants = 33 pounds off 1k even 1 gram would give me 11 pounds ???? i have done sogs so extreme that i would make international news if i got caught )

 

[DrGreener]

• But you direct so much more light towards your plants with a reflector that it is the way to go. Otherwise much of your light, from the upper portion of the bulb, will go up and not be reflected down towards your plant and that is wasted light. If you have good reflective material or a flat white paint that will reflect some of it back down if the ceiling has some reflective material but it will lose some of its intensity so again it is wasted light.
  
  It is the same with vertical lighting unless your light is in between your plants so no matter which way it goes it is directly hitting plants but then when you look at the difference in growing in more northern regions as opposed to more southern regions, or maybe better said closer to the equator or farther from the equator, the closer to the equator you are the more direct light will hit the top surfaces of leaves and that is where the sunlight is taken in and does its thing so the less direct light that hits the upper flat surfaces of leaves, because of the angle the light hits the plants from the sun or from your light, you get less efficiency from the light source and it can and will affect time periods like flowering and make vegging time longer to get the height you want.
  
  Horizontal is the way to go but there is nothing wrong with supplementing that with vertical if you have the bucks for more lights and can deal with the added heat. ​
  
  
  
  

 

[OGEvilgenius]

• But you direct so much more light towards your plants with a reflector that it is the way to go. Otherwise much of your light, from the upper portion of the bulb, will go up and not be reflected down towards your plant and that is wasted light. If you have good reflective material or a flat white paint that will reflect some of it back down if the ceiling has some reflective material but it will lose some of its intensity so again it is wasted light.
  
  It is the same with vertical lighting unless your light is in between your plants so no matter which way it goes it is directly hitting plants but then when you look at the difference in growing in more northern regions as opposed to more southern regions, or maybe better said closer to the equator or farther from the equator, the closer to the equator you are the more direct light will hit the top surfaces of leaves and that is where the sunlight is taken in and does its thing so the less direct light that hits the upper flat surfaces of leaves, because of the angle the light hits the plants from the sun or from your light, you get less efficiency from the light source and it can and will affect time periods like flowering and make vegging time longer to get the height you want.
  
  Horizontal is the way to go but there is nothing wrong with supplementing that with vertical if you have the bucks for more lights and can deal with the added heat. ​
  
  

He had 72 plants I'm pretty sure... but... Ok... here's 2 plants almost 2 gpw... since you want to move goalposts. Ever see a 5lb plant indoors? How about 5lbs using 1200w? You're about to.

https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/101347-critical-mass-tree-grow-x.html - didn't hit 5lb plant mark, still did well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1fXmgHxAJw - 5lb plant... Chiesel instead of CM this grow, similar setup though.

The above about lights being required to be hung horizontally above is pure unadulterated BS with absolutely no scientific basis or support I'm afraid.

 

[OGEvilgenius]

lol ok again 5 plants = 6 pounds his what 180 plants lol from clone into flower not sure on how many scrolled thru out and not one plant in there here check out this out http://www.hg-hydroponics.co.uk/eco-system-300-plant-vertical-system-115-p.asp
you mention less wasted light here i should almost start a journal 5000 plant 1000 watt start from clones and veg one week flip i bet i get 3 grams dry per plant x 5000 plants = 33 pounds off 1k even 1 gram would give me 11 pounds ???? i have done sogs so extreme that i would make international news if i got caught )

And you could do that sog vertically, have a lot more plants and less wasted light in the same area.

 

[DrGreener]

• And the harvest weight from the Critical mass was 30.6 Oz from the plant on the left and 43.8 Oz from the one on the right. I will post up some pics later in the week of the dried harvest.
  
  
  

  • I will post up some pics later in the week of the dried harvest.​
    
    

  
  So it was weight wet obviously as he mentions he will post dry weight later on lol so divide that by 4 gave him ??????18.6 oz amazing grow non less for 2 plants 1 pound 2 0z
  
  my last grow 4 plant 4 pound dry harvest 2 k the screen was one plant trim 36 x 72 so what 500 watts per plant vegged 33 days flowered 56
  i will be posting in next month my next grow which will be 20 x 8 scrog 20 plant 20 pound harvest 8k c02 enriched​
  
  PS:
  
  • I will post up some pics later in the week of the dried harvest.
    
    then few pages later he says its dryed harvest lol ok BS he got 9 oz per plant which in todays grows are becoming pretty average​
  
  
  

 

[OGEvilgenius]

It was dry. Heath Robinson is a legend in the scene. A real innovator. If you're looking at the plants pictured and believe he only pulled 9 ounces off them, for no reason whatsoever (look at the pictures those plants are much much larger than the plants in your pictures - objectively), in complete contradiction to everything in that thread, just because you seem to take objective information personally, really only hurts you in the long run.

I'm probably being too nice to you given you just dissed a well known legend who has been featured in magazines and whose genetics many folks on this site have been pretty desperate to get a hold of.

Good luck with your grows, you have them well dialed horizontally.

 

[Clown Baby]

DrGreen, your grow is looking good.


But I think hes getting more than 9oz/plant. Heath's an old school legend, man
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1fXmgHxAJw
edit: oh.. someone already posted this...

 

[DrGreener]

i am not dishing know one i read between the fine lines thats all like that post of his amazing grow and his post that he would mention dry weight later on in the week ?????
then mentions it was dry weight ?????? contradicting himself doesn't stand up in my books you mention size of plant actually really look close on one of his pics and you will notice in one of his pics that one of his plants are not very large pictures tho can be deceiving anyways
you keep mentioning wasted light look at it this way horizontal like street lights are designed that way for better overall sight if the bulb was vertical it be dark on the street a vertical bulb loses lumens and penetration power right off the start being light is being shot out in all directions thus not really having any strong penetration in any given area more or less it loses it fast woould love to see par readings at 2 feet on a vertical bulb compared to par 2 feet on horizontal with reflector
Here is another way of saying it your working under your car what would work better a a light that is wide open and shining or a automotive light with reflector ???? obviously the reflector cause your getting both sides of the bulb and directing it onto any given area make sense to me

 

[DrGreener]

[video=youtube;snPw1oLwzKM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snPw1oLwzKM[/video]

 

[OGEvilgenius]

Actually, you completely read what he wrote wrong. He didn't contradict himself. Yes, street lamps are designed like that to light up a specific area. They could be on the ground without reflectors but they would probably blind people who walked by them. Things are not always designed for efficiency. In fact many things are not designed with efficiency in mind at all.

You would have more light from the horizontal bulb with a reflector taking a reading, but that wouldn't be telling the whole story. A single bulb without a reflector - you could take readings all the way around it 2ft away and it would measure the same. Horizontally? It will be intense in a much smaller area.

The plants can get closer to a bulb vertically than they can conventionally.


*added*
In an 8x8x8 room you'd have 64 sq ft to grow if you went conventional and likely would want to run 2400 watts minimum and probably 4k if you really wanted to maximize things. If you had a 6ft diameter vertical garden that was 8 ft high in the same room your surface area - if a perfect circle your square footage improves dramatically and you are not wasting light in the refraction process which is not 100% efficient and never will be. But more importantly, you greatly increase the amount of room you have to grow.

 

[DrGreener]

Actually, you completely read what he wrote wrong. He didn't contradict himself. Yes, street lamps are designed like that to light up a specific area. They could be on the ground without reflectors but they would probably blind people who walked by them.

You would have more light from the horizontal bulb with a reflector taking a reading, but that wouldn't be telling the whole story. A single bulb without a reflector - you could take readings all the way around it 2ft away and it would measure the same. Horizontally? It will only be intense in a much smaller area.

600 would be what 3 x 3 area of high intensity horizontal but at 2 feet the vertical has lost lots of its power
again lights either 1000 or 600 will only go so far so to think by placing 600 vertically your going to grow that plant 10 feet away good its not going to happen it will grow alright stretched like no tomorrow
i saw the vid from heath again from reading lots of messages there is controversy and why cause its the internet and there is allot of blowing out of proportion here anyone can say anything
can i ask you this being your a follower of heath how is your 76 0z 1 plant vert doing ???? have you even come close to that
i don't see to many vert journals pulling what 76 0z of a plant and 53 off another ??? where is this heath is he still around ???
to the novice grower they would be in awe but to a grower thats bin around the block and done lots of indoor with lots of different power from 2 k to 16k it doesn't jive so well
I think in the vid he vegged 3 weeks ???? dude from growing 16,000 watts 208,000 million lumens your not going to get a plant like that in 3 weeks lol more in the range of 7 - 10 weeks specially with 5 / 600 watters
something to ponder about if your lights are on the side of a plant????
plant will naturally grow to the light so obviously he needed light on top of plant possibly horizontal is my guess to get it to grow up here look i tipped my plants over flourescents are still up top look how plant started to grow this is what i do prior to LST'ng and transplanting into my training pot look plant totally side ways lol so if its vertical plant height doesn;t occur it grows to lights that are beside it

 

[OGEvilgenius]

All I see here is "I can't believe it's possible because I've never done anything like it before".

I grew 5'5ft tall plants with a single 600w packed in a little bit tightly in a 4x4 area. 5x5 would have been preferable but the hydro shop only had 4x4's in stock and I was impatient as I sometimes am. Vegged 6 weeks (from seed) then flipped, sativa leaning plants (the 5'5 in pot). All the buds would have been nice sized had I used a 5x5. Probably would have pulled down closer ot 2lbs of nice colas instead of 1.5lbs. This was all from seed without clones doing a strain far from dialed in using no CO2 hand watering in coco. Waaaay less than optimal conditions to maximize yields. Probably would do 2lbs next go in the same tent for a lot of reasons. Had I had my best plants in place of all my other plants I would have pulled down 2lbs without changing anything except using clones instead of from seed. And all done somewhat suboptimally. Next go will unfortunately not be ideal either as I have to go from seed again it seems.

Had to leave moms with a buddy who also wanted to run something different and he got them infected with PM it would seem. And I just kill plants with PM personally.

Believe what you want. Heath is well established in the community and is acknowledged as an incredible grower by guys like Shantibaba. He has much credibility and his DWC systems are simple yet very effective, the main difference between his being no airstones and instead a high flow water pump recirculating in large tubs. He's been around since the early days of Overgrow. Just look around for his name.

A 600w is good for a plant about 5ft tall in a pot, even a bit taller. 600w is good for 4x4 area, and could - less than ideally, cover 5x5 could it not? I know you can do 1000's, but it's overkill for a small area like that. That's more a 5x5. That being said, you can stack multiple lights on top of each other in vertical setups. IE: 3x600 with plants going to the ceiling and getting maximum light intensity. Remember your plants can get closer to vertical bulbs - less heat and this allows them to get the same or more lumens than a horizontal plant as well. Although it can affect your canopy and canopy management in a vert SOG or SCROG would be a serious PITA. I like growing tall plants doing a little LST and letting things happen on their own.

The plants want to grow upwards from their root naturally. The pattern is largely genetic - not that they won't reach for the light, they will. Branches tend to grow out and then back around if you're not surrounding the plant in light. If they are surrounded they tend to grow as they would anyway.

 

[OGEvilgenius]

It's a shit picture, out of focus etc. But that plant was grown using 1x600w non hydroponically and not well dialed in. Yielded 7oz. Wish I had had 4 of them although the other girls did pretty well, they didn't have their stems snapping from resin production like you can see happening with this one.

 

[DrGreener]

View attachment 2270662

It's a shit picture, out of focus etc. But that plant was grown using 1x600w non hydroponically and not well dialed in. Yielded 7oz. Wish I had had 4 of them although the other girls did pretty well, they didn't have their stems snapping from resin production like you can see happening with this one.

Was that 7 0z dry ???? cause 8 0z is half of a pound and it takes allot of buds to make that

 

[OGEvilgenius]

Was that 7 0z dry ???? cause 8 0z is half of a pound and it takes allot of buds to make that

7 oz after a week in jars. That plant is about 5 1/2 ft tall from the ground.

 

[beenthere]

i saw the vid from heath again from reading lots of messages there is controversy and why cause its the internet and there is allot of blowing out of proportion here anyone can say anything
can i ask you this being your a follower of heath how is your 76 0z 1 plant vert doing ???? have you even come close to that
i don't see to many vert journals pulling what 76 0z of a plant and 53 off another ??? where is this heath is he still around ???
to the novice grower they would be in awe but to a grower thats bin around the block and done lots of indoor with lots of different power from 2 k to 16k it doesn't jive so well

Hey bro, no offense but why are you in a vertical forum talking crap about vertical yields?
What's up with calling some of these vert growers in here liars, where is your proof of 6lbs out of 5 plants?

And to be honest, the pic below where you claim 4lbs off 4 plants is pretty suspect, I don't want to sound like a dick but I'm calling BS myself. Your pic clearly shows two plants on the right side screen which would make up half of your grow, so sorry, that ain't 32 zips my friend.

 

[beenthere]

Hey bro, no offense but why are you in a vertical forum talking crap about vertical yields?
What's up with calling some of these vert growers in here liars, where is your proof of 6lbs out of 5 plants?

And to be honest, the pic below where you claim 4lbs off 4 plants is pretty suspect, I don't want to sound like a dick but I'm calling BS myself. Your pic clearly shows two plants on the right side screen which would make up half of your grow, so sorry, that ain't 32 zips my friend.

Just figured out who you are, you used to post in here using the screen name "lighting" same trolling, same pics!

 

[Dubdeuce]

No one ever seems to mention the bad points of vertical. Here's a few things to keep in mind before you go vert:

- Most vertical systems are a set size, and made to take a set number of plants exactly the correct size. So when you loose some clones, or your clones grow an extra foot, you just kind of have to make it work.
- Vertical SUCKS for cooling. Sure, you can use A/C's and chillers, but that extra juice could just be powering more lights.
- Apart from Heath, who says he got like 2 gram a watt (which could just be bullshit), I haven't seen anyone with a vert system post yields much better than buckets / E&F tables.
- It's hard to get at the plants

Unless your average temp is below 50 degrees, or you just want to piss around, I'd stay away from vert. It can work. It can even work pretty good - but overall it seems inferior to E&F tables, which are cheaper, and more tolerant of heat and varying plant sizes.

1) Isn't this the same regardless of which type of growing method you incorporate?
2) Cool tubes provide the same air cooling that any ported reflector can provide. If you're comparing a bare bulb vs an air cooled reflector then we're comparing apples and oranges here.
3) Vertical lighting is just what the name says. "Vertical lighting" cannot be compared to a growing systems like DWC buckets, or Ebb and Flow. I could do vertical lighting with DWC buckets, or a horizontal setup?
4) Yes, It can't be hard to get at the plants, especially if they are in a tent!

 

[OGEvilgenius]

Indeed, bare bulbs are easier to cool than cooltube bulbs in vertical. Truth.

That guy was just full of misinformation. My guess is he worked for a hydroshop that's seeing it's reflector sales drop.

How hard the plants are to get at really depends on your setup. I didn't really have any big issues personally.

 

[zor]

this debate has gone one for ages on multiple sites. and even after all these years, the same faulty logic and personal bias shows its head.

There are no absolutes. so anytime someone says something like 'its a fact, you can yield more with a vertical/horizontal bulb', i shake my head.

vertical bulbs give you a much LARGER canopy area (potentially) than a horizontal bulb would. This IS a fact that cannot be argued with.

However, larger surface area does NOT necesarily mean MORE yield. If yield were a purely a function of increased canopy size, then the best grows would be 20x20 400watt bulb grows with 1000 plants. Obviously, this would never work because the INTENSITY of the light would be greatly diminished. this is why, many jedi growers continue to kill it with horizontal as opposed to vertical. Horizontal lights aim MORE intense light at plants than a vertical setup. This also cannot be disputed. Which yields more? It depends...

Large yields and efficiency often come down canopy management and environmental control. There is a balance between canopy AREA and light intensity that greatly effect yields. This can be messed up or done well with both with vert, horizontal, or a combo of both. Just because someone doesn't yield as well with Horizontal as they do with vertical DOES NOT make this true for everyone.

I read people in this thread and claiming how 'if grower x turned his bulb the other way, he would increase his yield'. That to me, is a very naive assertion as there are MANY growers neck and neck with top yields from BOTH methods.

Heath robinson, the internet legend, and now seed vender (not lending much to his credibility anyway) has journaled BOTH flat and vertical grows. If there were a clear cut 'Vert is better than horizontal' fact, why would he even bother with flat grows?

Why do jedi growers continue to kill it with both methods if there is ONE superior method? Why is it that all over the internet on the major sites, many who have jumped to vert grows cannot live up to the hype despite elaborate setups that cost a ton, and require a ton of maintenance

On another site, there was a journal side by side from a good grower with a horizontal vs vert setup. The results were NOT conclusive as to which method did better but it tells me alot that his next grow he opted for horizontal.

Hopefully, we as a community can keep an open mind and try to discover NOT which method is superior. But instead, we should be fact finding to see what factors can maximize the yields for our situation.