Did the state make you great?

canndo

Well-Known Member
By Charles Krauthammer, “If you’ve got a business — you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen.” — Barack Obama, Roanoke, Va., July 13 And who might that somebody else be? Government, says Obama. It built the roads you drive on. It provided the teacher who inspired you. It “created the Internet.” It represents the embodiment of “we’re in this together” social solidarity that, in Obama’s view, is the essential origin of individual and national achievement. To say that all individuals are embedded in and the product of society is banal. Obama rises above banality by means of fallacy: equating society with government, the collectivity with the state. Of course we are shaped by our milieu. But the most formative, most important influence on the individual is not government. It is civil society, those elements of the collectivity that lie outside government: family, neighborhood, church, Rotary club, PTA, the voluntary associations that Tocqueville understood to be the genius of America and source of its energy and freedom. Moreover, the greatest threat to a robust, autonomous civil society is the ever-growing Leviathan state and those like Obama who see it as the ultimate expression of the collective. Obama compounds the fallacy by declaring the state to be the font of entrepreneurial success. How so? It created the infrastructure — roads, bridges, schools, Internet — off which we all thrive. Absurd. We don’t credit the Swiss postal service with the Special Theory of Relativity because it transmitted Einstein’s manuscript to the Annalen der Physik. Everyone drives the roads, goes to school, uses the mails. So did Steve Jobs. Yet only he created the Mac and the iPad. Obama’s infrastructure argument is easily refuted by what is essentially a controlled social experiment. Roads and schools are the constant. What’s variable is the energy, enterprise, risk-taking, hard work and genius of the individual. It is therefore precisely those individual characteristics, not the communal utilities, that account for the different outcomes. The ultimate Obama fallacy, however, is the conceit that belief in the value of infrastructure — and willingness to invest in its creation and maintenance — is what divides liberals from conservatives. More nonsense. Infrastructure is not a liberal idea, nor is it particularly new. The Via Appia was built 2,300 years ago. The Romans built aqueducts, too. And sewers. Since forever, infrastructure has been consensually understood to be a core function of government. The argument between left and right is about what you do beyond infrastructure. It’s about transfer payments and redistributionist taxation, about geometrically expanding entitlements, about tax breaks and subsidies to induce actions pleasing to central planners. It’s about free contraceptives for privileged students and welfare without work — the latest Obama entitlement-by-decree that would fatally undermine the great bipartisan welfare reform of 1996. It’s about endless government handouts that, ironically, are crowding out necessary spending on, yes, infrastructure. What divides liberals and conservatives is not roads and bridges but Julia’s world, an Obama campaign creation that may be the most self-revealing parody of liberalism ever conceived. It’s a series of cartoon illustrations in which a fictional Julia is swaddled and subsidized throughout her life by an all- giving government of bottomless pockets and “Queen for a Day” magnanimity. At every stage, the state is there to provide — preschool classes and cut-rate college loans, birth control and maternity care, business loans and retirement. The only time she’s on her own is at her grave site. Julia’s world is totally atomized. It contains no friends, no community and, of course, no spouse. Who needs one? She’s married to the provider state. Or to put it slightly differently, the “Life of Julia” represents the paradigmatic Obama political philosophy: citizen as orphan child. For the conservative, providing for every need is the duty that government owes to actual orphan children. Not to supposedly autonomous adults. Beyond infrastructure, the conservative sees the proper role of government as providing not European-style universal entitlements but a firm safety net, meaning Julia-like treatment for those who really cannot make it on their own — those too young or too old, too mentally or physically impaired, to provide for themselves. Limited government so conceived has two indispensable advantages. It avoids inexorable European-style national insolvency. And it avoids breeding debilitating individual dependency. It encourages and celebrates character, independence, energy, hard work as the foundations of a free society and a thriving economy — precisely the virtues Obama discounts and devalues in his accounting of the wealth of nations. http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/charles-krauthammer-did-the-state-make-you-great/2012/07/19/gJQAbZOiwW_story.html


This is the ultimate straw man argument. A civil society does not "lie outside of government", it lies squarely within it, it is defined by it, nurtured by it, protected by it and even enforced by it.
 

beenthere

New Member
I love me some Charles Krauthammer.

To be honest, the only thing the federal government and the state of California have done for me regarding starting and running a business, was get in the way and charge me out the ass in fees, regulations and taxes!
 

londonfog

Well-Known Member
I love me some Charles Krauthammer.

To be honest, the only thing the federal government and the state of California have done for me regarding starting and running a business, was get in the way and charge me out the ass in fees, regulations and taxes!
what type of business are you in ???
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
The state has no money of it's own, it 's all stolen from private citizens. The state is the single biggest murderer of people throughout history. Fighting for a "team" against other people that have never harmed you is absurd.

The U.S. killed the indigenous people, stole their land and then made slaves stolen from Africa build their white house. The state incarcerated U.S. citizens in WW II in concentration camps because they were ethnically Japanese. The state has waged a war on self ownership and arrested about 22 million people since 1965 over a plant. The present empire is deep in debt and is the only one to use nuclear weapons aganst helpless civilians...I could go on and on....

Hooray, the state sure is great.
 

Nitegazer

Well-Known Member
The speach really has been a lightning rod. The essentials of what was said, to my understanding, is that a balanced budget requires both an increase in taxes and cuts in spending. Obama was highlighting how important some government investment is. Conservatives typically believe in incremental change, which includes a balanced approach to reducing deficits. The GOP has moved considerably right on this issue.

Here is an interesting editorial stating that Obama is actually, by some definitions, more conservative than Romney.

http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2012/07/what-happened-to-the-obamacons.html

Here is the Wiki definition of conservatism:
Conservatism (Latin: conservare, "to retain") is a political and social philosophy that promotes retaining traditional institutions and supports, at most, minimal and gradual change in society. A person who follows the philosophies of conservatism is referred to as a traditionalist or conservative.

Ask yourself, who is seeking minimal and gradual change in this election? Who is the conservative?
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
"the latest Obama entitlement-by-decree that would fatally undermine the great bipartisan welfare reform of 1996"- Charles Krauthammer

I missed this on my first reading.


Wow, I am stunned. This man, supposedly an intellectual shows his animosity toward the truth, his penchant for being instead a shill for the hard right liars and cheats by making an oblique reference to an Obama action granting temporary and adventageous dispensation to certain states regarding welfare to work policies. Those dispensations were asked for by Republican govenors. He makes a subtle insinuation as though it were hard and accepted fact and places it in an article that has nothing to do with the welfare to work program at all.

This is the act of a genuine dick.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
The state has no money of it's own, it 's all stolen from private citizens. The state is the single biggest murderer of people throughout history. Fighting for a "team" against other people that have never harmed you is absurd.

...

Yes you could go on and on but you go on and on with hot button words like murder and stealing. How did the slaves come to be in America? Why were they brought here?
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
I'm sorry
But i picture Rob Roy as a basement dweller who collects jars of his own urine so the goverment cant get ahold of it
Hiding behind black curtains and using a web cam to keep track of the outside of his house just in case the black helicopters show up

Well the guy has a point, government can be intrusive, it does use force, it is very powerful but whenever I encounter someone who has the opinion that government is the only monolithic evil in the universe I get a bit weary. It may be true that government, all governments have been at the root of the most deaths but we can make an argument that companies are a close second. We can argue that corporations have caused great hardship and that hardship was caused with or without the consent or assistance of government.

Those that believe that only government is responsible for the woes of mankind only have it partialy right but those are the ones who are either ideologicaly unwilling or incapable of seeing the entire truth. I mentioned that tobacco companies to this day cause the death of 5 million people a year to say nothing of the cost to society, the cost to the family and the individual and the misery cigarettes cause. For the most part they cause these evils with full knowlege. People have choices but in this country they have choices with regard to government as well.
 

beardo

Well-Known Member
Well the guy has a point, government can be intrusive, it does use force, it is very powerful but whenever I encounter someone who has the opinion that government is the only monolithic evil in the universe I get a bit weary. It may be true that government, all governments have been at the root of the most deaths but we can make an argument that companies are a close second. We can argue that corporations have caused great hardship and that hardship was caused with or without the consent or assistance of government.

Those that believe that only government is responsible for the woes of mankind only have it partialy right but those are the ones who are either ideologicaly unwilling or incapable of seeing the entire truth. I mentioned that tobacco companies to this day cause the death of 5 million people a year to say nothing of the cost to society, the cost to the family and the individual and the misery cigarettes cause. For the most part they cause these evils with full knowlege. People have choices but in this country they have choices with regard to government as well.
[youtube]ExWfh6sGyso[/youtube]
 

ChesusRice

Well-Known Member
"the latest Obama entitlement-by-decree that would fatally undermine the great bipartisan welfare reform of 1996"- Charles Krauthammer

I missed this on my first reading.


Wow, I am stunned. This man, supposedly an intellectual shows his animosity toward the truth, his penchant for being instead a shill for the hard right liars and cheats by making an oblique reference to an Obama action granting temporary and adventageous dispensation to certain states regarding welfare to work policies. Those dispensations were asked for by Republican govenors. He makes a subtle insinuation as though it were hard and accepted fact and places it in an article that has nothing to do with the welfare to work program at all.

This is the act of a genuine dick.
Charles Wheelchammer
Needs to make a living. Telling it like it is aint gonna fund him
 

Moses Mobetta

Well-Known Member
The State huh. I'm a direct descendant of the passengers who landed at Plymouth Rock from the Mayflower, big deal, am I entitled to some kind of royalties from that. The State ruined my life so I left in search of a less oppressive society where I could live in peace and enjoy a life free from their oppression and tyranny - the same reason some of my ancestors came to America before it was even a country. Yeah the far left views and corrupt government practices imposed on myself and others ruined my State with countless new laws and seemingly endless taxes to pay for all the things they think are good for us cause we don't know the difference. By the way most of the good places to work left for a cheaper place to operate their bussinesses. Way to go State. What's worse is I would have never known had it not happened in my lifetime.
 

ChesusRice

Well-Known Member
The State huh. I'm a direct descendant of the passengers who landed at Plymouth Rock from the Mayflower, big deal, am I entitled to some kind of royalties from that. The State ruined my life so I left in search of a less oppressive society where I could live in peace and enjoy a life free from their oppression and tyranny - the same reason some of my ancestors came to America before it was even a country. Yeah the far left views and corrupt government practices imposed on myself and others ruined my State with countless new laws and seemingly endless taxes to pay for all the things they think are good for us cause we don't know the difference. By the way most of the good places to work left for a cheaper place to operate their bussinesses. Way to go State. What's worse is I would have never known had it not happened in my lifetime.
I agree with you.
We need to deregulate business, get rid of wage laws child labor laws the EPA worker safety regulations and we can be as great a Country as China
 

Moses Mobetta

Well-Known Member
I agree with you.
We need to deregulate business, get rid of wage laws child labor laws the EPA worker safety regulations and we can be as great a Country as China
Yeah Mitt did such a great job I was moving right back, c'mon now. Even the poor immigrants don't stay living there. I said far left corrupt political leadership don't get confused over it.
Almost all democrats there, just because they are democrats does not mean they are not corrupt.
 

ChesusRice

Well-Known Member
Yeah Mitt did such a great job I was moving right back, c'mon now. Even the poor immigrants don't stay living there. I said far left corrupt political leadership don't get confused over it.
Almost all democrats there, just because they are democrats does not mean they are not corrupt.

LOL
I lived in Quincy and Milton Mass
Worst part about Mass was the drivers
 
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