Did the state make you great?

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Yes, it is interesting how so many can read the same document and still don't get it. "General welfare" does not mean the government has control over every aspect of our lives. In fact, if read with the perspective of our FF, it means that government provides for our general welfare by staying the hell out of our business.
According to the US Constitution, the people themselves ordained that a constitution would help the general welfare of the US, not actually give government power over others happiness.

I sometimes wonder if people really DO think the government is responsible for their happiness.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
Yes, it is interesting how so many can read the same document and still don't get it. "General welfare" does not mean the government has control over every aspect of our lives. In fact, if read with the perspective of our FF, it means that government provides for our general welfare by staying the hell out of our business.
I said nothing about "control over every aspect of our lives" - that would be you reading what the constitution does not say. Congress is enabled to levy taxes in order to provide for the general welfare, that covers a lot of ground. It would not be within this particular clause - namely the power to levy taxes were it actually to mean "staying out of our business".
 

Mr Neutron

Well-Known Member
According to the US Constitution, the people themselves ordained that a constitution would help the general welfare of the US, not actually give government power over others happiness.

I sometimes wonder if people really DO think the government is responsible for their happiness.
Yeah, it's the "pursuit" of happiness not happiness, itself, but you can't expect the drones to understand that. If they read the second amendment the same way as they read "general welfare" and "to regulate commerce"... everyone would be required to own and carry a firearm.
 

Mr Neutron

Well-Known Member
i said nothing about "control over every aspect of our lives" - that would be you reading what the constitution does not say. Congress is enabled to levy taxes in order to provide for the general welfare, that covers a lot of ground. It would not be within this particular clause - namely the power to levy taxes were it actually to mean "staying out of our business".
DAI (10 characters)
 

ginwilly

Well-Known Member
It is interesting how these simple statements are misread or misinterpreted over and over again. Althos seems to think it reads differently than it does. Mr. Neutron seems to think that there are limits that do not exist - and most on the right just ignore the "provide for.... general welfare". Interestingly, health care for all could easily be argued as "general welfare".
by some people's interpretation yes. So could food for all, shelter for all, lawnmowers for all etc etc.
 

Mr Neutron

Well-Known Member
by some people's interpretation yes. So could food for all, shelter for all, lawnmowers for all etc etc.
You don't have to look far for supporting documents and letters, as to their goal. It's pretty clear that except for a scant few, their warnings to posterity were of too much government.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
by some people's interpretation yes. So could food for all, shelter for all, lawnmowers for all etc etc.

A minimum of food and shelter for all is not out of the question - welfare could encompass those things and indeed we provide for that. I don't think a case could be made for lawnmowers.
 

ginwilly

Well-Known Member
A minimum of food and shelter for all is not out of the question - welfare could encompass those things and indeed we provide for that. I don't think a case could be made for lawnmowers.
well maybe you couldn't but somebody else could. How bout popcorn? can we all get popcorn? Elena Kagan has already said on record that there is no limiting factor on government through the general welfare clause. You've admitted you'd like to stack the court with all Kagan types and that's your main reason for wanting another term for Obama. No Limiting Factor....
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
well maybe you couldn't but somebody else could. How bout popcorn? can we all get popcorn? Elena Kagan has already said on record that there is no limiting factor on government through the general welfare clause. You've admitted you'd like to stack the court with all Kagan types and that's your main reason for wanting another term for Obama. No Limiting Factor....

No no, I don't want to stack the court, I just don't want it stacked in the other direction. Sure, it could be argued that welfare means popcorn but the process would have to go through legislative channels. I want all people to be entitled to the minimum required for life - that doesn't mean they get beef, that means they get beans. That doesn't mean they get a penthouse either. Most of those with whom I argue over these things just love to bring these provisions to extremes, deciding that somehow prime rib is an entitlement in a state where no one is forced to starve but currently welfare folk and food stamp people don't get very much, no matter what they claim about welfare queens and that guy up front using his food stamp card to purchase lobster.

It will always be far more expensive to let fellow citizens starve than to give them surplus cheese.
 

Moses Mobetta

Well-Known Member
No no, I don't want to stack the court, I just don't want it stacked in the other direction. Sure, it could be argued that welfare means popcorn but the process would have to go through legislative channels. I want all people to be entitled to the minimum required for life - that doesn't mean they get beef, that means they get beans. That doesn't mean they get a penthouse either. Most of those with whom I argue over these things just love to bring these provisions to extremes, deciding that somehow prime rib is an entitlement in a state where no one is forced to starve but currently welfare folk and food stamp people don't get very much, no matter what they claim about welfare queens and that guy up front using his food stamp card to purchase lobster.

It will always be far more expensive to let fellow citizens starve than to give them surplus cheese.
There are always abuses, regardless. Foodstamp programs, wic, food pantries and soup kitchens - these are good places/programs for those in need of food and from what I have seen there should be no one starving or hungry who has access to these programs/places.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
There are always abuses, regardless. Foodstamp programs, wic, food pantries and soup kitchens - these are good places/programs for those in need of food and from what I have seen there should be no one starving or hungry who has access to these programs/places.

The point is that the presence of starving and homeless people is not good for a society or a culture. This is what is meant by general welfare. We are not feeding and housing the poor necessarily for their own welfare - but the General one - all of us profit from a culture where no one is starving. The right simply does not get that. They think that people are so individual that their neighbor's health and.... welfare does not affect their own.


They are very wrong.
 

Moses Mobetta

Well-Known Member
The point is that the presence of starving and homeless people is not good for a society or a culture. This is what is meant by general welfare. We are not feeding and housing the poor necessarily for their own welfare - but the General one - all of us profit from a culture where no one is starving. The right simply does not get that. They think that people are so individual that their neighbor's health and.... welfare does not affect their own.


They are very wrong.
In my hometown we get around 15 million in federal money to help about 1000 homeless people a year. I got so pissed off about the situation- lots of six figure jobs and not helping, just berating them and swindling the money. I went and lived among the homeless for about six months before I found out what was going on, then continued to stay with them and advocated for them - did activism spent much of my own money and lots of time on this. I spent several years at this, all I can say is theres plenty of help in the place I was if we could have just got people like the police comissioner and the politicians to stop stealing the money and helping their rich friends steal it, then it would have gone more directly toward helping the homeless instead of into the pockets of those who have plenty.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
In my hometown we get around 15 million in federal money to help about 1000 homeless people a year. I got so pissed off about the situation- lots of six figure jobs and not helping, just berating them and swindling the money. I went and lived among the homeless for about six months before I found out what was going on, then continued to stay with them and advocated for them - did activism spent much of my own money and lots of time on this. I spent several years at this, all I can say is theres plenty of help in the place I was if we could have just got people like the police comissioner and the politicians to stop stealing the money and helping their rich friends steal it, then it would have gone more directly toward helping the homeless instead of into the pockets of those who have plenty.

But they should be pulling themselves up by their own bootstraps.


Except they don't have boots.
 

Moses Mobetta

Well-Known Member
The point is that the presence of starving and homeless people is not good for a society or a culture. This is what is meant by general welfare. We are not feeding and housing the poor necessarily for their own welfare - but the General one - all of us profit from a culture where no one is starving. The right simply does not get that. They think that people are so individual that their neighbor's health and.... welfare does not affect their own.


They are very wrong.
I had to read this again and well when the right and left get done f**king the country over there will probably be nothing left over. People's health and welfare was a lot better before politicians started selling our jobs to foriegn countries. Both left and right have participated in that, you know the two not me guys who point their finger at each other.
 

Moses Mobetta

Well-Known Member
But they should be pulling themselves up by their own bootstraps.


Except they don't have boots.
We can throw money at problems all day every day and get nowhere as long as these programs are administrated by theives. 15 million to help one thousand homeless! -per year. We could have bought them all houses and fed them/provided for them for the rest of their lives with that money.
 

Red1966

Well-Known Member
The right actually says that althor. they say that we must revere corporations and businesses because they are the "job creators" They say that we must not do anything to offend our benefactors such as insisting on regulations or taxation. And then, as I said, they claim that we owe the government nothing for their services, we owe them nothing for whatever attempts they make at leveling the playing field between individuals and businesses.
They do say business creates jobs, and there's no way you can argue against that. Eeverything else you claim is false. If you disagree with their opinions, fine, but don't put words in their mouths and then rail against things no one has claimed.
 

Red1966

Well-Known Member
It doesn't Mr. Neutron "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; " Nothing in there prohibits the collection of taxes upon individuals. this was not amended, this was the original proclaimation and it says nothing about "volunteering" or about collecting funds from states. It gives the Congress the power to lay and collect in any means necesssary so long as they be uniform.
But we have a progressive tax rate, which means it's NOT uniform.
 

Red1966

Well-Known Member
It is interesting how these simple statements are misread or misinterpreted over and over again. Althos seems to think it reads differently than it does. Mr. Neutron seems to think that there are limits that do not exist - and most on the right just ignore the "provide for.... general welfare". Interestingly, health care for all could easily be argued as "general welfare".
ANYTHING could be argued as "general welfare". The clause just states what the taxes can be spent on, not that it is required to be provided. Obamacare does not provide healthcare anyway. It requires YOU to buy insurance, the insurance company will provide the healthcare. Obamacare just specifies what must be covered and, importantly. NOT covered.
 
Top