Attention Ron Paul supporters

[bedspirit]

Yah Tarrifs are really ineffective because they simply cause retaliatory tariffs from other countries, which just raises price levels on everything. The government makes out pretty well but the consumers end up paying ridiculous prices and substitute products become prevalent when they shouldn't be (IE sugar and HFCS). The smoot-hawley tarrifs were part o0f the cause of the great depression and are a good example of how tariffs can get extremely political, because you are favoring markets over others, and they ended up severely dampening trade (I think international trade decreased by 60%).

I don't know why we would be afraid to engage in a trade war. Do you know what our major exports are? Food and Raw materials. The only major manufactured export we have is aircraft, an industry with some pretty steep barriers to entry. China, on the hand has a lot more to fear in a trade war. The products they produce can be made anywhere. Raw materials, on the other hand, are where they are.

So far, the argument against lower income taxes and high tariffs is the fear of retaliation. Even people who love free trade admit that it causes U.S. job loss and lower wages. Is no one afraid of that? Is that somehow preferable to china not buying our soybeans? Also, I think the demand for the natural resources we export can survive a little retaliation. Where else are they going to go?

I think you're looking at a much different US than the one that existed in 1930. Also, Smoot-hawley was one of the largest tariff increases in history, so that's a pretty extreme example. Also, I would consider it to be very strange for it to be a cause of the Great Depression since it passed after the Great Depression had already started. I too have read that it was a cause, the explanation was that the mere talk of a tariff increase was enough to put us into a depression and there were discussions of a tariff coming, hence depression. That's the most fucking retarded thing I've ever read. It's sounds like propaganda to me. I suspect that the enormous increase in public debt during the 20's had more to with the depression than gossip of a tariff.

 

[desert dude]

You support tariffs?
How big is the import/export gap in US trade?
Taxes are passed to the consumer through higher prices.

Your idea is stupid, no offense.

Tariffs in lieu of income taxes is not such a bad idea.

 

[Harrekin]

You're stupid. Offense intended.

Do you remember when Harley Davidson almost went out of business in the 80's? Do you recall how they turned things around. It wasn't by firing all of their American workers and moving to China. Ronald Reagan put a huge tariff on imported motorcycles. As a result, Harley Davidson remained in the United States and made a huge comeback. I've got about 734 more examples if you care to debate.

What exactly is still produced in the US? Good work, rape the consumers.

The products you buy are produced abroad because the labour cost is cheaper. See how much an IPad or an IPhone costs if it's produced in the US/has tariffs levied on it.

Retard.

 

[bedspirit]

The products you buy are produced abroad because the labour cost is cheaper.

No shit. You've given me the impression that you're ill equipped to debate this issue since you have an obsession with stating the obvious.
So what's the end game here? move every industry overseas until we have a population so desperate for employment that we're willing to work in the same deplorable conditions that exist overseas? We used to manufacture things in this country and those years were considered the golden era of American Capitalism. The public wasn't crushed by the high price of American made goods.
The argument you're attempting to make is the one that's been used to defend Walmart's push into globalism. The argument is that low prices make up for the lower wages and loss of jobs we've experienced. You don't have to be an economist to judge for yourself. Do you think things are better today than they were before free trade?

The factory that makes Ipods has been in the news a lot for the last few years. It's essentially a factory town where the workers live on campus. They also move their workers to different dorms constantly so that no one can form a bond with any coworkers. It's also marked by an incredibly high suicide rate. Is this the successful business model you're touting? That's what we're competing with, and I suspect it's what our future will look like if we continue to play by their rules.

 

[lifegoesonbrah]

I don't know why we would be afraid to engage in a trade war. Do you know what our major exports are? Food and Raw materials. The only major manufactured export we have is aircraft, an industry with some pretty steep barriers to entry. China, on the hand has a lot more to fear in a trade war. The products they produce can be made anywhere. Raw materials, on the other hand, are where they are.

So far, the argument against lower income taxes and high tariffs is the fear of retaliation. Even people who love free trade admit that it causes U.S. job loss and lower wages. Is no one afraid of that? Is that somehow preferable to china not buying our soybeans? Also, I think the demand for the natural resources we export can survive a little retaliation. Where else are they going to go?

I think you're looking at a much different US than the one that existed in 1930. Also, Smoot-hawley was one of the largest tariff increases in history, so that's a pretty extreme example. Also, I would consider it to be very strange for it to be a cause of the Great Depression since it passed after the Great Depression had already started. I too have read that it was a cause, the explanation was that the mere talk of a tariff increase was enough to put us into a depression and there were discussions of a tariff coming, hence depression. That's the most fucking retarded thing I've ever read. It's sounds like propaganda to me. I suspect that the enormous increase in public debt during the 20's had more to with the depression than gossip of a tariff.

I don't think tariffs are the answer in our society. If you look at smaller countries, tariffs do work because a lot of smaller countries have a primary export. In America, we have a wide array of industries and it would just cause a politapocolypse. Each industry would need to invest more into lobbyist to fight for their market to have a *higher tariff than the rest. Eventually you would end up with low tariffs for markets that don't have much political power and the highest tariffs on the industries with the most influence. I brought up Smoot-Hawley because it is a prime example of what happens when politics meets tariffs, this legislation did pass a year after the stock market crash, but certainly was a contributing factor to the depression. I am against tariffs for the simple reason that they would give government power over the markets. When you limit free trade, you have to remember that you are also limiting competition as well. If you believe in free market principles and small government, tariffs are not the answer. It gives politicians too much control which is never good when one of our biggest problems is corporatism and corruption.

 

[lifegoesonbrah]

No shit. You've given me the impression that you're ill equipped to debate this issue since you have an obsession with stating the obvious.
So what's the end game here? move every industry overseas until we have a population so desperate for employment that we're willing to work in the same deplorable conditions that exist overseas? We used to manufacture things in this country and those years were considered the golden era of American Capitalism. The public wasn't crushed by the high price of American made goods.
The argument you're attempting to make is the one that's been used to defend Walmart's push into globalism. The argument is that low prices make up for the lower wages and loss of jobs we've experienced. You don't have to be an economist to judge for yourself. Do you think things are better today than they were before free trade?

The factory that makes Ipods has been in the news a lot for the last few years. It's essentially a factory town where the workers live on campus. They also move their workers to different dorms constantly so that no one can form a bond with any coworkers. It's also marked by an incredibly high suicide rate. Is this the successful business model you're touting? That's what we're competing with, and I suspect it's what our future will look like if we continue to play by their rules.

You like Rick Santorum brah? This is his argument as well. Don't you think other sectors of the economy hold more relevance in todays world than manufacturing? Why should we prioritize manufacturing over other industries? Regardless of that, the U.S. manufacturing sector is almost as large as China's entire economy. I think you are after the wrong boogy man. The boogy man isn't some poor person in a sweat shop making American flags for 10 cents an hour, the boogy man is this constant intervention in the market, whether it be from lobbyist pushing regulations to limit competition, or the Fed controlling interest rates. We are fucking ourselves, its time to stop blaming other countries for our own ineptness.

 

[lifegoesonbrah]

The factory that makes Ipods has been in the news a lot for the last few years.

They just assemble the ipods.

 

[UncleBuck]

tariffs are a mitt romney idea, which automatically makes it a horrible idea.

it would basically be a tax on the american people, and it would hit people like us who spend a greater percentage of our incomes on stuff more than it would hit people like romney who only spend a small percentage of their incomes on stuff.

so tariffs are basically a regressive tax on the american people which is great for the rich and an injustice against the most vulnerable among us.

 

[bedspirit]

tariffs are a mitt romney idea, which automatically makes it a horrible idea.

it would basically be a tax on the american people, and it would hit people like us who spend a greater percentage of our incomes on stuff more than it would hit people like romney who only spend a small percentage of their incomes on stuff.

so tariffs are basically a regressive tax on the american people which is great for the rich and an injustice against the most vulnerable among us.

Holy Crap. I expected debate from the Paulbots, since Paul is an economic neoliberal in the tradition of Pinochet and Fernando de la Rúa, but from the ultra progressive Uncle Buck? Maybe you're not as partisan as I thought. I see you're equating tariffs with a fair tax. That wouldn't necessarily be the case, but I see what you're getting at.

I didn't realize that Romney was supporting tariffs. That certainly is a shift in economic policy for the Republicans. Bush used to lecture us on the dangers of protectionism. These days, I'm more likely to support a democrat than a republican (though I'd have to hold my nose to vote for either), but if the democrats become the party of free trade, I may have to reconsider that.

 

[bedspirit]

You like Rick Santorum brah? This is his argument as well. Don't you think other sectors of the economy hold more relevance in todays world than manufacturing? Why should we prioritize manufacturing over other industries? Regardless of that, the U.S. manufacturing sector is almost as large as China's entire economy. I think you are after the wrong boogy man. The boogy man isn't some poor person in a sweat shop making American flags for 10 cents an hour, the boogy man is this constant intervention in the market, whether it be from lobbyist pushing regulations to limit competition, or the Fed controlling interest rates. We are fucking ourselves, its time to stop blaming other countries for our own ineptness.

I have to think about that, but my first thought is that as manufacturing declined, we saw the rise of the financial sector. I think last time I checked, that industry represented 30% of our GDP. If I had to choose then I would prefer manufacturing over that sector

 

[ChesusRice]

I don't know why we would be afraid to engage in a trade war. Do you know what our major exports are? Food and Raw materials. The only major manufactured export we have is aircraft, an industry with some pretty steep barriers to entry. China, on the hand has a lot more to fear in a trade war. The products they produce can be made anywhere. Raw materials, on the other hand, are where they are.

So far, the argument against lower income taxes and high tariffs is the fear of retaliation. Even people who love free trade admit that it causes U.S. job loss and lower wages. Is no one afraid of that? Is that somehow preferable to china not buying our soybeans? Also, I think the demand for the natural resources we export can survive a little retaliation. Where else are they going to go?

I think you're looking at a much different US than the one that existed in 1930. Also, Smoot-hawley was one of the largest tariff increases in history, so that's a pretty extreme example. Also, I would consider it to be very strange for it to be a cause of the Great Depression since it passed after the Great Depression had already started. I too have read that it was a cause, the explanation was that the mere talk of a tariff increase was enough to put us into a depression and there were discussions of a tariff coming, hence depression. That's the most fucking retarded thing I've ever read. It's sounds like propaganda to me. I suspect that the enormous increase in public debt during the 20's had more to with the depression than gossip of a tariff.

China is the source of Rare earth metals found in electronics and industry
they own almost all the tungsten which is used in machining as well

 

[ChesusRice]

I have to think about that, but my first thought is that as manufacturing declined, we saw the rise of the financial sector. I think last time I checked, that industry represented 30% of our GDP. If I had to choose then I would prefer manufacturing over that sector

Thank ROnnie Raygun and the Cervix economy for that

 

[bedspirit]

I don't think tariffs are the answer in our society. If you look at smaller countries, tariffs do work because a lot of smaller countries have a primary export. In America, we have a wide array of industries and it would just cause a politapocolypse. Each industry would need to invest more into lobbyist to fight for their market to have a *higher tariff than the rest. Eventually you would end up with low tariffs for markets that don't have much political power and the highest tariffs on the industries with the most influence. I brought up Smoot-Hawley because it is a prime example of what happens when politics meets tariffs, this legislation did pass a year after the stock market crash, but certainly was a contributing factor to the depression. I am against tariffs for the simple reason that they would give government power over the markets. When you limit free trade, you have to remember that you are also limiting competition as well. If you believe in free market principles and small government, tariffs are not the answer. It gives politicians too much control which is never good when one of our biggest problems is corporatism and corruption.

I can appreciate that. But how do you propose we compete with countries that employ slave laborers? Forty years ago, the area I grew up in had hundreds of factories that all paid a decent wage. Now, only a few remain. They all moved to either Mexico or China. Free Trade has decimated that area. I'll bet any one of those poor mother fuckers would be willing to pay a little extra for their goods if it meant that those factory jobs would return.

The irony of your support for free trade is that as a Paul supporter, I imagine that our sovereignty is of utmost importance to you. Free Trade undermines that sovereignty. Most free trade agreements give rights to international business interests that supersede any state or local laws that may exist. I think Public Citizen sums it up better than I:

Starting with NAFTA and the WTO in the mid-90s, international "trade" agreement provisions began invading traditional state policy space - delving deeply into matters of state law from bans on state-level Buy-Local procurement policy to rules limiting land use policy to constraints on energy, health and other service sector regulation.

 

[ChesusRice]

I can appreciate that. But how do you propose we compete with countries that employ slave laborers?

You can't
We had a manufacturer here. The guy owned the company that made nesco slow cookers. He went to a trade show in Korea and saw a knock off of his nesco cooker, they copied it right down to the defective mold mark. He couldnt beat them so he partnered up with the South Koreans to build the nesco cooker there and still retain a plant here. A year later a new Nesco knock off was coming out of China. Guess what? They copied it right down to the defective mold mark.

China is an example of what we can achieve as long as we dont care about people, the enviroment or wealth disparity.

 

[bedspirit]

You can't
We had a manufacturer here. The guy owned the company that made nesco slow cookers. He went to a trade show in Korea and saw a knock off of his nesco cooker, they copied it right down to the defective mold mark. He couldnt beat them so he partnered up with the South Koreans to build the nesco cooker there and still retain a plant here. A year later a new Nesco knock off was coming out of China. Guess what? They copied it right down to the defective mold mark.

China is an example of what we can achieve as long as we dont care about people, the enviroment or wealth disparity.

I'm glad you posted that. I thought I was losing my fucking mind. To be honest, I haven't read much on trade since the mid 2000's, when I was a little more engaged with the left. At the time, the republicans were pushing hard for free trade. Most on the left opposed it and instead favored more protectionist policies. The libertarians wanted free trade, but they argued that most of our free trade agreements had too many protections in them.

Claims on this thread about the republicans supporting protectionism and Uncle Buck, of all guys, being against it, made me think that some kind of major reversal had taken place without me knowing it.

 

[londonfog]

I'm glad you posted that. I thought I was losing my fucking mind. To be honest, I haven't read much on trade since the mid 2000's, when I was a little more engaged with the left. At the time, the republicans were pushing hard for free trade. Most on the left opposed it and instead favored more protectionist policies. The libertarians wanted free trade, but they argued that most of our free trade agreements had too many protections in them.

Claims on this thread about the republicans supporting protectionism and Uncle Buck, of all guys, being against it, made me think that some kind of major reversal had taken place without me knowing it.

Happens when you deal with the right-wing world. Have to be careful dwelling in such places of confusion

 

[ChesusRice]

I'm glad you posted that. I thought I was losing my fucking mind. To be honest, I haven't read much on trade since the mid 2000's, when I was a little more engaged with the left. At the time, the republicans were pushing hard for free trade. Most on the left opposed it and instead favored more protectionist policies. The libertarians wanted free trade, but they argued that most of our free trade agreements had too many protections in them.

Claims on this thread about the republicans supporting protectionism and Uncle Buck, of all guys, being against it, made me think that some kind of major reversal had taken place without me knowing it.

The company I just left
Buys it's castings from China
The agreement is
They buy 2 years worth of steel castings
The Chinese bought a warehouse in Indiana to store the castings until they are needed at the machines

Now think about this.
We are talking steel. How much cheaper can the chinese make castings than right here in the USA? They cannot. But they have no problem subsidizing the production of said castings with the sole purpose of driving out the competition.
Same thing happened with Solyndra. Solyndra engineered a panel that doesnt use as much rare earth metals as their Chinese competitors. As soon as Sloyndra became a threat. They started dumping Solar panels at below manuacturing cost on the US market. And we with the Wal Mart mentality bought them all up

 

[budlover13]

Happens when you deal with the right-wing world. Have to be careful dwelling in such places of confusion

Same applies to left-wing propaganda too.

 

[ChesusRice]

Same applies to left-wing propaganda too.

Want a headache?
Go over to the democratic underground
a lot of those people are Nutz
same with the Free republic

 

[budlover13]

Want a headache?
Go over to the democratic underground
a lot of those people are Nutz
same with the Free republic

Not really. i only frequent such sites with a STRONG dose of medication and for the sole purpose of gleaning some talking points based on their "beliefs".