ScoobyDoobyDoo Thank You!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- Thread starter GrowinTheDank
- Start date
ScoobyDoobyDoo
Well-Known Member
that hortilux daylight blue bulb is like triple the price first off ($240 for a 1000w). i talked to the guys at hortilux, lumatek, and greners and they all said that it has problems in digital ballasts. that bulb is the main reason that hortilux starting making their own digital ballasts. problem is the ballast alone is $600 and is not dimmable. the bulbs come in 1000w, 400w and 250w. so if you use a 400 or 250w bulb then you are just asking for problems by putting it in another digital ballast. you would need to use a magnetic ballast really. the bulb is basically the same technology and spectrum as the CMH bulbs.
my regular hortilux MH bulbs keep my plant stretch down just fine. since my hoods are so cool that i can lay my face on the glass of a 1000w hood after it's been running for days; i can keep them 8-12" from the plants. plus, i also run my plants on those same MH bulbs for the first 2 weeks of flower (12/12). this is what really helps control your plants stretch. leads to tighter node spacing and thicker stalks which means fatter buds.
some guys want more stretch...i like short bushy plants though.
Sencha
Active Member
She'd kill me if I went zip lining without her. But don't think I won't try.no matter what you say Sencha we're not building any basements out of wood! haha. you're gonna have a blast when you get down here. leave the girldfriend at home though. you don't bring sand to the beach.
i guess if your not having a problem with stretch with your moms it doesnt matter. all i know is my hortilux super mh stretches my plants way too much thats why im about to switch to a blue bulb.just a heads up scooby i used to use this bulb years ago its called SunMaster Cool Deluxe
http://www.hydroempire.com/store/1000-watt-sunmaster-cool-deluxe-bulb-p-107.html
i respect the people at this store alot and they've been giving me good advice for years. they say this is the best mh bulb on the market. i think thats why they dont even sell the horlilux blue mh. just wanted to tell you incase you wanted to know. i was about to try out a hortilux blue bulb but since you told me about those problems maybe il just go with the sunmaster again. all i know is when i was using it before my plants grew real fast and stayed extremely short. shoulda never switched
ScoobyDoobyDoo
Well-Known Member
i used sunmaster bulbs for YEARS. still love them. have a few in storage as backups. they are great; cheap too. the cool deluxe and the warm deluxe. just when hortilux switched the spectrum on their MH bulbs i tried them out and i liked them. no real difference as far as quality of plant growth and limited stretch. just the hortilux bulbs last about 25-30% longer based on reading from my light meter. plus their HPS bulb is the best on the market in my opinion.
damn i wish you used the hortilux super blue hps in flower before so you could tell me how it is. now that you said that im gonna go with the hortilux blue mh. hopefully it keeps my plants as short as the sunmaster did. im not that concerned about the price cause i buy 400 watt bulbs for my moms.
GrowinTheDank
Active Member
Official Scooby help thread anyone? haha 
ScoobyDoobyDoo
Well-Known Member
http://www.greners.com/i/grow-lights/hid-bulbs/brand/hortilux.html (All Hortilux Bulbs)
Super HPS (1000w, 600w, 400w, 250w) - more blue spectrum than any other HPS lamp out there. Still not anything close to an MH or some supplemental UV, CFL, T5's.
Blue Daylight Metal Hallide (1000e, 400w, 250w) - the one we talked about. really expensive. needs special ballast (magnetic or Hortilox Ballast). not worth the money. great spectrum though if you got cash to blow.
Metal Halide (1000w, 400w) - what i use. best metal halide on the market for the money. available in both vertical and horizontal designs.cdon't make a 600w though. go Digilux if you are 600w.
Dual Arc (1000w) - has to be magnetic ballast. will run in a digital but might blow in a day; a week; a month. $250 for 1 bulb. i don't see any point to this bulb unsless you were a huge commercial grower and used it as hanging supplemental lighting or on some kind of mover rigged below the canopy level with the bulbs running on tracks between rows of plants. good luck with that setup...
scooby helped me too figuring out if my electrical was okay to run the setup I had in mind. He's a helpful guy
"Super HPS (1000w, 600w, 400w, 250w) - more blue spectrum than any other HPS lamp out there"
is this a quote from you scooby? i didnt see it on the site. i dont even see how thats possible because thats the bulb i use and the stretch is insane in flower. it my opinion other than this dual ark shit im pretty much coming to the conclusion that hortilux doesnt make an hps blue bulb or at least one that has enough blue in it to cut the stretch down to where i need it. you know i had a strain before that with no veg time my plants ended up 4' tall lol. its pretty ridiculous now that i think about it. also these secret recipe's i got now i gave them very little veg time and there 5' tall now and grew like a vine the whole time. im so sick of the bottom third of the leaves falling off in flower cause the plants are too tall and not getting enough light. i think im about to switch up my strategy for flower and start using a different bulb i just bumped into this one while researching sunmaster
SUNMASTER H.P.S. HIGH OUTPUT BULB
http://www.discount-hydro.com/products/Sunmaster-H.P.S.-High-Output-Bulbs.html
"Sunmaster High Pressure Sodium Bulbs are a full spectrum bulb. They emit more blue light than regular H.P.S. bulbs. This will allow you to give your plants the light they need for flowering while still being able to grow plants in the vegetative stages without stretching. Ordinary high pressure sodium bulbs do not emit light in the blue and violet spectrum. If you are going to use only one bulb for both vegetative growth and flowering, you should use an enhanced spectrum bulb. They also help to keep the plants from stretching in all phases of plant growth. These bulbs are available for 1000 and 600 watt ballasts. These bulbs are environmentally friendly."
scooby have you ever used this sunmaster bulb or any other sm bulb in flower? from the description it sounds like the stretch will be less than with hortilux. since im gonna be working with mainly chemdog strains from now on i need to cut down the stretch cause there kind of viney. i still like the hortlilux bulb but for certain strains other bulbs could be better for me
if you have a bulb you can recommend for me scooby il appreciate it
is this a quote from you scooby? i didnt see it on the site. i dont even see how thats possible because thats the bulb i use and the stretch is insane in flower. it my opinion other than this dual ark shit im pretty much coming to the conclusion that hortilux doesnt make an hps blue bulb or at least one that has enough blue in it to cut the stretch down to where i need it. you know i had a strain before that with no veg time my plants ended up 4' tall lol. its pretty ridiculous now that i think about it. also these secret recipe's i got now i gave them very little veg time and there 5' tall now and grew like a vine the whole time. im so sick of the bottom third of the leaves falling off in flower cause the plants are too tall and not getting enough light. i think im about to switch up my strategy for flower and start using a different bulb i just bumped into this one while researching sunmaster
SUNMASTER H.P.S. HIGH OUTPUT BULB
http://www.discount-hydro.com/products/Sunmaster-H.P.S.-High-Output-Bulbs.html
"Sunmaster High Pressure Sodium Bulbs are a full spectrum bulb. They emit more blue light than regular H.P.S. bulbs. This will allow you to give your plants the light they need for flowering while still being able to grow plants in the vegetative stages without stretching. Ordinary high pressure sodium bulbs do not emit light in the blue and violet spectrum. If you are going to use only one bulb for both vegetative growth and flowering, you should use an enhanced spectrum bulb. They also help to keep the plants from stretching in all phases of plant growth. These bulbs are available for 1000 and 600 watt ballasts. These bulbs are environmentally friendly."
scooby have you ever used this sunmaster bulb or any other sm bulb in flower? from the description it sounds like the stretch will be less than with hortilux. since im gonna be working with mainly chemdog strains from now on i need to cut down the stretch cause there kind of viney. i still like the hortlilux bulb but for certain strains other bulbs could be better for me
if you have a bulb you can recommend for me scooby il appreciate it
ScoobyDoobyDoo
Well-Known Member
i think i already mentioned that i used sunmaster bulbs for YEARS before switching to hortilux and i still have several HPS and MH Cool Deluxe bulbs in storage.
here is a link to the available sunmaster bulbs. (http://www.greners.com/i/grow-lights/hid-bulbs/brand/sunmaster.html). all of the "blue" bulbs you are talking about are MH bulbs. they are available in 3 spectrums...Warm, Cool, and Neutral Deluxe. these are MH bulbs; make no mistake about it. none of them will ever outproduce a HPS bulb in flower.
this is the ONLY HPS bulb that sunmaster makes. they are great bulbs as i have said twice already.
this is the hortilux HPS bulb. slightly more "blue" output and also stronger yellows and oranges. in my opinion (and my light meters opinion) they last at least 1 entire grow longer than sunmaster bulbs; if not 2 full grows.
your common theme seems to be that you want to reduce your stretch in either flower or veg. i think in flower. we have talked about this a few times on our thread before. to reduce the stretch of your plants in flower stop feeding them HPS light suring the stretch period. the first 2-3 weeks of flower the plant is stretching. it is not concentrating on buds...it's concentrating on making itself big enough, tall enough, and wide enough to produce buds. running your plants on MH lights during this first 2-3 weeks (depending on if it's a 60-90 day flower period) will reduce the early flower stretch on your plants and help you control and even canopy. this is also why i have always recommended to you that you stick with your veg nute formula with your flower additives for the first 2-3 weeks as well. for rapid growth like this your plant still needs a lot of nitrogen to develop strong stems, stalks, and healthy leaves to absorb the light needed to produce big buds. thenn you switch to flower base nutes and your same additives as the stretch ends and the buds start to produce.
here is a link to the available sunmaster bulbs. (http://www.greners.com/i/grow-lights/hid-bulbs/brand/sunmaster.html). all of the "blue" bulbs you are talking about are MH bulbs. they are available in 3 spectrums...Warm, Cool, and Neutral Deluxe. these are MH bulbs; make no mistake about it. none of them will ever outproduce a HPS bulb in flower.
this is the ONLY HPS bulb that sunmaster makes. they are great bulbs as i have said twice already.
this is the hortilux HPS bulb. slightly more "blue" output and also stronger yellows and oranges. in my opinion (and my light meters opinion) they last at least 1 entire grow longer than sunmaster bulbs; if not 2 full grows.
your common theme seems to be that you want to reduce your stretch in either flower or veg. i think in flower. we have talked about this a few times on our thread before. to reduce the stretch of your plants in flower stop feeding them HPS light suring the stretch period. the first 2-3 weeks of flower the plant is stretching. it is not concentrating on buds...it's concentrating on making itself big enough, tall enough, and wide enough to produce buds. running your plants on MH lights during this first 2-3 weeks (depending on if it's a 60-90 day flower period) will reduce the early flower stretch on your plants and help you control and even canopy. this is also why i have always recommended to you that you stick with your veg nute formula with your flower additives for the first 2-3 weeks as well. for rapid growth like this your plant still needs a lot of nitrogen to develop strong stems, stalks, and healthy leaves to absorb the light needed to produce big buds. thenn you switch to flower base nutes and your same additives as the stretch ends and the buds start to produce.
ScoobyDoobyDoo
Well-Known Member
everyone has an opinion. i have tried all types of bulb setups. my "opinion" is as i stated above..."hortilux mh for veg and hortilux hps for flower." you are free to try anything out tree. experimentation is fun. when you ask for my opinion though i can only give you what i believe to be the best answer. the choice is yours. i would NEVER use an MH bulb for both veg and flower. i would veg with T5's and flower with HPS before i did that. and if i couldn't get the T5 then i would veg and flower with the hortilux Super HPS.
george xxx
Active Member
English please amigo, I can't read GreekScooby,
Nos otros todos te queremos !!!
i totally get everything your saying scooby and i appreciate the advice. i was never looking to use a mh bulb in flower a was looking for an hps bulb from another company that had a slightly different spectrum with a tiny bit more blue in it that would slow the stretch a little. i take it from your answer that the super high output hps didnt stretch the plants less than the hortilux. didnt know the warm deluxe was only a mh
ScoobyDoobyDoo
Well-Known Member
use your MH light for the first 2 weeks of flower. there is your answer. if you want a little more stretch than that then use it for a week.
no doubt. im gonna do that worst case scenario. still havent decided but i might get another type of hps bulb and do a side by side first
check out this thread
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=242734&page=2
this guy had one side of his plant mh and the other side hps and the mh side had much bigger buds. this is an interesting subject. theres a bunch of people on icmag that say they get better results with mh bulbs in flower
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=242734&page=2
this guy had one side of his plant mh and the other side hps and the mh side had much bigger buds. this is an interesting subject. theres a bunch of people on icmag that say they get better results with mh bulbs in flower
ScoobyDoobyDoo
Well-Known Member
this one is gonna be a doozy! thank god i type fast...
ok...here is the layout i would suggest. i still don't know where the door really is; where the "niche" is; where closets and windows are; etc...
ok, now the fun begins.
Cooling
with 4,000w of light you are going to need an a/c unless you live in the antarctic. doesn't matter how much you push air through thouse lights. your options are a portable a/c which is very inefficient and will have to be vented into the attic or out a window. a window a/c which is efficient but has to sit in a window. a minisplit which is expensive but the most efficient way to cool the room. the compressor can be put on the roof or hidden behind shrubs in the yard somewhere.
depending on the size of the a/c you get will also determine the options you have for venting your lights. if your a/c is big enough (24,000btu+) then you can run your lights in bat wing reflectors and you won't need any inline fans. if you can vent your hoods into the attic then you won't need that big of an a/c (12,000btu). should you decide to air cool your lights you will have 2 options. to pull air from outside of the room (the attic or a window) and then vent that air back outside of the room. this way you really have no odor issues. if you go the other route and pull air from the room through your lights then you will need to pass that air trough a carbon filter before exhausting it out of the room. you could put a small carbon filter on the opening of both rows of lights and then filter the air going through the hoods. this will keep your hoods and bulbs clean and will also take away the need for a seperate fan and carbon filter in the room. you could probably get away without doing this but then you would need a large carbon filter in the room on a 10-12" fan running nonstop during flowering; you'd want to turn the air over every minute or less.
System
based on how big you said you wanted to run your plants i would think 16 plants would be perfect for 4,000w. if you 18 or 24 then you just need to run smaller plants in a tighter area. probably no training like LST or Supercropping. maybe TOP once or twice. problem with most ebb and grow systems is that the reservoir, control bucket, grow sites, and tubing heat up when they are sitting under those hot lights. so between feeding the water heats up and then when the pump comes on it shocks the roots with hot water. you have a chiller so your reservoir will be cold but not the standing water in the buckets, tubing, and control bucket. this hot water leads to algae and slime issues which create problems in your reservoir. with the CAP system it is best to put some planks or something under the grow buckets to raise them 1-2" above the control bucket. this helps to drain the tubing and grow buckets better. it also helps to use a small wedge (1/2") to tilt the grow buckets to the drain side. this will get most of the water out of the buckets so that your roots aren't sitting in warm water when the plant gets bigger. the only way i know to keep the control bucket cool is to keep it outside of the room or in a dark closet. not sure if this is an option for you.
both the sentinel and titan system are more efficient and their buckets drain better but you will have the same issues in the control bucket ans tubing. one way i have found that helps keep your system clean is to run and enzyme product like aquashield, sensizyme, or hyfgrozyme. some guys even run small doses of hydrogen peroxide (h2o2). changing your reservoir weekly will also help. if you have the time then flush your system with water during this change. fill the reservoir with fresh water and fill/drain in a few times before dumping that water and adding fresh water and nutes. after every harvest tear your system down and clean everything. the bucket, tubing, reservoir, and control bucket. helps to let your tubing sit in a bucket of diluted bleach and then rinse them out.
you mention you have a 75 gallon reservoir. i think you meant a 50 gallons reservoir. the CAP system comes with a 50 gallon reservour and the only 70 gallon reservoirs i have ever seen are large rectangular ones for flood tables. you will not need to fill the res all the way; especially during veg and early flower. fill your buckets with hydroton and then add water to your system. run the pump to fill the buckets and then slowly keep adding just enough water till all the buckets are full and the float valve shuts off the flood pump. you want about 10 gallons in your reservoir with all of the buckets full. then drain the buckets back into the reservoir and you will see how much water you need. as you get into flower and the palnts get bigger you will notice you need more water in the reservoir as they are drinking more. it will take some tweaking but you will get it figured out over time. with 24 plants i can tell you that you will never need more than 40 gallons of water in your reservoir and you can do less if you want to tap off your well in the middle of the week. having 50 gallons in your res with a bunch of small plants is just a waste of nutes.
Chiller
a 2hp chiller is a sizeable unit. problem is you are using it wrong. a 1/2hp unit would be just fine to cool your reservoir. you said you keep your reservoir at 67 degrees. shoot for 64 if you can. you are not supposed to run nutrient water through your chiller. it will ruin the internal coils of the condenser and also cause issues with your pH and ppm of your nnutrient solution. chillers are meant to be run on their own reservoir. with a unit like that you would be best off getting a small 20-30 gallon reservoir and using that as your chiller reservoir. use a pump to run water to your chiller and then have it drain back into your reservoir. then use a submersible pump to pull water from that reservoir and pump it through a cool coil or wort coil that sits in your reservoir. i prefer the wort coils. this way you are not mizing nutrients with the water going through your chiller. you also don't want to keep your chiller in your grow room if you can avoid it. they emmit heat. if your ac can handle it then fine but it;s best to be kept outside of the room like the commercial units or the window units.
Electrical
what you described sounds good. run your lights off the controller. then bring in a 30 amp 120v line to run your outlets for fans and stuff. use #10 wire. then, depending on your a/c situation and dehumidifier you will probably have to bring in another line fo them. 30 amp 120v.
that's all i got so far. lol
ok...here is the layout i would suggest. i still don't know where the door really is; where the "niche" is; where closets and windows are; etc...
ok, now the fun begins.
Cooling
with 4,000w of light you are going to need an a/c unless you live in the antarctic. doesn't matter how much you push air through thouse lights. your options are a portable a/c which is very inefficient and will have to be vented into the attic or out a window. a window a/c which is efficient but has to sit in a window. a minisplit which is expensive but the most efficient way to cool the room. the compressor can be put on the roof or hidden behind shrubs in the yard somewhere.
depending on the size of the a/c you get will also determine the options you have for venting your lights. if your a/c is big enough (24,000btu+) then you can run your lights in bat wing reflectors and you won't need any inline fans. if you can vent your hoods into the attic then you won't need that big of an a/c (12,000btu). should you decide to air cool your lights you will have 2 options. to pull air from outside of the room (the attic or a window) and then vent that air back outside of the room. this way you really have no odor issues. if you go the other route and pull air from the room through your lights then you will need to pass that air trough a carbon filter before exhausting it out of the room. you could put a small carbon filter on the opening of both rows of lights and then filter the air going through the hoods. this will keep your hoods and bulbs clean and will also take away the need for a seperate fan and carbon filter in the room. you could probably get away without doing this but then you would need a large carbon filter in the room on a 10-12" fan running nonstop during flowering; you'd want to turn the air over every minute or less.
System
based on how big you said you wanted to run your plants i would think 16 plants would be perfect for 4,000w. if you 18 or 24 then you just need to run smaller plants in a tighter area. probably no training like LST or Supercropping. maybe TOP once or twice. problem with most ebb and grow systems is that the reservoir, control bucket, grow sites, and tubing heat up when they are sitting under those hot lights. so between feeding the water heats up and then when the pump comes on it shocks the roots with hot water. you have a chiller so your reservoir will be cold but not the standing water in the buckets, tubing, and control bucket. this hot water leads to algae and slime issues which create problems in your reservoir. with the CAP system it is best to put some planks or something under the grow buckets to raise them 1-2" above the control bucket. this helps to drain the tubing and grow buckets better. it also helps to use a small wedge (1/2") to tilt the grow buckets to the drain side. this will get most of the water out of the buckets so that your roots aren't sitting in warm water when the plant gets bigger. the only way i know to keep the control bucket cool is to keep it outside of the room or in a dark closet. not sure if this is an option for you.
both the sentinel and titan system are more efficient and their buckets drain better but you will have the same issues in the control bucket ans tubing. one way i have found that helps keep your system clean is to run and enzyme product like aquashield, sensizyme, or hyfgrozyme. some guys even run small doses of hydrogen peroxide (h2o2). changing your reservoir weekly will also help. if you have the time then flush your system with water during this change. fill the reservoir with fresh water and fill/drain in a few times before dumping that water and adding fresh water and nutes. after every harvest tear your system down and clean everything. the bucket, tubing, reservoir, and control bucket. helps to let your tubing sit in a bucket of diluted bleach and then rinse them out.
you mention you have a 75 gallon reservoir. i think you meant a 50 gallons reservoir. the CAP system comes with a 50 gallon reservour and the only 70 gallon reservoirs i have ever seen are large rectangular ones for flood tables. you will not need to fill the res all the way; especially during veg and early flower. fill your buckets with hydroton and then add water to your system. run the pump to fill the buckets and then slowly keep adding just enough water till all the buckets are full and the float valve shuts off the flood pump. you want about 10 gallons in your reservoir with all of the buckets full. then drain the buckets back into the reservoir and you will see how much water you need. as you get into flower and the palnts get bigger you will notice you need more water in the reservoir as they are drinking more. it will take some tweaking but you will get it figured out over time. with 24 plants i can tell you that you will never need more than 40 gallons of water in your reservoir and you can do less if you want to tap off your well in the middle of the week. having 50 gallons in your res with a bunch of small plants is just a waste of nutes.
Chiller
a 2hp chiller is a sizeable unit. problem is you are using it wrong. a 1/2hp unit would be just fine to cool your reservoir. you said you keep your reservoir at 67 degrees. shoot for 64 if you can. you are not supposed to run nutrient water through your chiller. it will ruin the internal coils of the condenser and also cause issues with your pH and ppm of your nnutrient solution. chillers are meant to be run on their own reservoir. with a unit like that you would be best off getting a small 20-30 gallon reservoir and using that as your chiller reservoir. use a pump to run water to your chiller and then have it drain back into your reservoir. then use a submersible pump to pull water from that reservoir and pump it through a cool coil or wort coil that sits in your reservoir. i prefer the wort coils. this way you are not mizing nutrients with the water going through your chiller. you also don't want to keep your chiller in your grow room if you can avoid it. they emmit heat. if your ac can handle it then fine but it;s best to be kept outside of the room like the commercial units or the window units.
Electrical
what you described sounds good. run your lights off the controller. then bring in a 30 amp 120v line to run your outlets for fans and stuff. use #10 wire. then, depending on your a/c situation and dehumidifier you will probably have to bring in another line fo them. 30 amp 120v.
that's all i got so far. lol