Union Teachers Say The Hell With Students

Rob Roy

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
canndo said:
Educate me then Beenthere - what is the fundamental difference between results based pay in one case and... results based pay in another?
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Ooooh ooooh I know ! I know! One involves coercion and theft the other involves consent. Payment in a consensual arrangement is set by market feedback, payment in "public" schools not so much.
 
UncleBuck

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
Rob Roy said:
Ooooh ooooh I know ! I know! One involves coercion and theft the other involves consent. Payment in a consensual arrangement is set by market feedback, payment in "public" schools not so much.
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public schools rely heavily on funding from property taxes of people who, by consensual agreement, voluntarily choose to live in a certain area. if people are not satisfied, they can choose to move to a different school district: market feedback.

you fail again.
 
canndo

canndo

Well-Known Member
Rob Roy said:
Ooooh ooooh I know ! I know! One involves coercion and theft the other involves consent. Payment in a consensual arrangement is set by market feedback, payment in "public" schools not so much.
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What? Oncology is not readily a market feedback sort of event. Try again, Beenthere contends that teachers should be compensated based upon results, results over which a teacher has limited control. I asked how that was any different than the situation an oncololgist finds himself, and yet no one believes oncologists should be paid on the basis of his patients 5 year prognosis.
 
Rob Roy

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
UncleBuck said:
public schools rely heavily on funding from property taxes of people who, by consensual agreement, voluntarily choose to live in a certain area. if people are not satisfied, they can choose to move to a different school district: market feedback.

you fail again.
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Being in a given geographic area does not always imply or automatically grant consent does it?
 
canndo

canndo

Well-Known Member
Rob Roy said:
Being in a given geographic area does not always imply or automatically grant consent does it?
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It may in school districts. You have a choice, the school you are assigned to, private school or some sort of special dispensation in order to attend anther school outside of your district.
 
Corso312

Corso312

Well-Known Member
Wrong...read back..I never said it was the issue..I said all along it was not the issue..the teacher evaluations are the main issue and the job security ...it is VERY hard to fire some of these awful teachers..that should change and I agree with the teachers that one single test is a bad way to evaluate anything...But the pay is fair and the offer is fair..if you don't feel like working under these conditions then get someone who does.
 
desert dude

desert dude

Well-Known Member
Krayven Sumhead said:
A friend of mine's two daughters are public school teachers.

One teaches somewhere in Wisconsin, has been there 3 years and has a salary of $36,000 per year.

His other daughter is getting her Masters and re-thinking her career choice.

He invested 100,000$ in their education for this kind of pay out??

I made 36,000$ per year, plus, being a Union Carpenter Apprentice back in 1978.

Everyone wants their children to have a good education, but few are willing to pay a little extra for that privilege.

Not too many well educated administrators are gonna be attracted to a 36,000$ per year career.
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That fact is interesting to me. I was paid $27,000 per year in my first job after graduating college in 1983 with an engineering degree, so, as an apprentice carpenter you made about 1/3 more than I did as a graduate engineer, and you earned it five years before me.
 
cannabineer

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Corso312 said:
The strike by Chicago public school teachers is an illustration of the teachers’ union wanting its members to be paid without any evaluation of their performance.
In a city where unemployment has hit 11 percent, teachers are striking not over money, but over how they are evaluated and whether principals should have a say over which teachers work in their buildings.
Although the union disputes it, those are the two issues. And the teachers are wrong on both counts.
The city of Chicago has offered teachers a 16 percent raise over the four years, and has agreed to hire back tenured teachers who were laid off so Chicago schoolchildren can attend school more hours per day. The longer school day — implemented in some schools this year — requires at least seven hours of instruction each day. Previously, some schools were only in session for five hours and 45 minutes a day.
The average Chicago teacher’s salary is $71,000 per year. But that’s not the issue. In fact, good teachers are underpaid. Excellent teachers are grossly underpaid.
The key is to quit paying every teacher merely on their longevity and advanced degrees. Teachers should be evaluated on how well they teach.
One of the key issues is a state law that requires a new teacher evaluation system and that student performance on standardized tests make up at least 25 percent of that evaluation. Chicago teachers are balking at that idea.
There are issues with standardized tests and no system should rely solely on tests for a teacher evaluation. At the same time, these tests are one measure of how well a teacher performs. In some classrooms, student achievement on the tests improves year after year. In other classrooms, students tread water or their performance recedes. The difference, over the years, is the teacher. Those who move their students forward need to be rewarded. Those who don’t need to adopt new methods or, if performance issues persist, be encouraged to find another profession.
The other sticking point is allowing principals to select the teachers who work in their schools. Principals, who are measured on their school’s performance, need to have the right to hire the teachers that will help them succeed. Currently, the Chicago teachers’ union has a large say in where teachers are assigned. Some principals are understandably upset when they are assigned sub-par teachers, yet expected to improve a school’s results.
The union, in other words, doesn’t want teachers to compete for jobs. If principals are allowed to hire their own teachers, it will undoubtedly lead to the sub-par teachers being identified and “left behind.”
Evaluations based on objective performance data and competition for positions is standard in the business world. Most private sector employees are evaluated at least annually and are expected to meet certain standards. To varying degrees, pay is based on performance.
That’s the issue at the heart of this dispute. Chicago teachers want to be paid, but they are objecting to measures of their performance.
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They are objecting to facile, simplistic schemes to measure a stand-in for performance.
Look at what NCLB did to schools! It pegged their funding to the aggregate performance of the students on a standardized test. In order to survive, schools have had to focus on competitively prepping their kids to ace that standardized test. This gutted the schools' basic charter: to teach kids about all sorts of stuff. cn
 
Grandpapy

Grandpapy

Well-Known Member
Give me 34 different varieties of clones from 34 different sources, but most of the same age but then tell me I have 8 weeks to get 2 oz of dried product from each.
 
Corso312

Corso312

Well-Known Member
Lol what?.....^^^


And canna..I agree that one single test is poor way of evaluating anything..but hell..try the scabs...try privatized ..it can not get worse.
 
C

ChesusRice

Well-Known Member
Corso312 said:
Lol what?.....^^^


And canna..I agree that one single test is poor way of evaluating anything..but hell..try the scabs...try privatized ..it can not get worse.
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It's called homeschooling
and the homeschooling movement always ignores it's failures
 
cannabineer

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Corso312 said:
Lol what?.....^^^


And canna..I agree that one single test is poor way of evaluating anything..but hell..try the scabs...try privatized ..it can not get worse.
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Scabs? Nonunion public teachers? I'm pretty sure I don't understand.
My complaint/suggestion is to do away with NCLB and any other specious, spurious schemes to index teachers' work to an administrable measure of their students' performance. Any measure simple enough to appeal to administrators will be too simple to be lifelike, and the result is the current system in which teaching has had to abandon its core principle in order to fight for survival. Because NCLB turned teachers into competitors. It's a real-life lesson in the unintended consequences of an idea prized by conservatives: that competition breeds excellence. But the competition is rigged: it's an entirely artificial box into which the teachers have been forced. cn
Charles Murray wrote of the law: "The United States Congress, acting with large bipartisan majorities, at the urging of the President, enacted as the law of the land that all children are to be above average."
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Corso312

Corso312

Well-Known Member
Still confused...if I gave you 34 diff strains of clones and gave you 2 months and you could not get me 2 zips dry..i would have to yank your growing card brother.
 
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