Astir Grow Led Panel Project...

[repuk]

I know, I was looking for sources to follow the "asian" route and make some numbers to compare vs buying "premium" from the same shop...

Truth is ordering everything but the heatsinks from the same shop would lower the price.

Right now this is what came out after some head scratching and tons of specsheet glancing:

My grow chamber (I'll veg with PLLs this time, then switch to LEDs for flower in the same one) is 60x70x120cm, I intend to do a modular SCROG of two ladies.

The plan is using two LED "bars" like the one in the sketch, parallel to the short chamber side. Each bar has 12 WW (Cree XP-G 5W) 4 Cree XM-L 10W NW, and 1 Cree XM-L 10W CW. Will use two Mean Well LPC-60-1050 (12 XP-G each) and one LPC-60-1750 for all the XM-L. Each bar effective power will be around 70W, so that's 30W per sq feet (have seen veeery successful grows with 40-49W per sq feet).

LED bar intended height for optimal coverage goes between 15cm to about 1' (30cm) above canopy.

Total cost sans heatsinks (I already have one, 50x6x3cm) will be around $300 including shipping, i.e. ~$2 a watt.

I think this mix provides a nice spectrum coverage, would have used XM-L WW but the shop doesn't have them, on the positive side the WW XP-G provides much more relative power in the red spectrum than the XM-L. Being 5W I expect this band (the more powerful radiation-wise) will be better spread with 12 5W LEDs than using 6 or 5 10W LEDs.

 

[stardustsailor]

I use a total different approach ..
Concerning number & power of leds...
Concerning number of panel units,also...

If I was to use your total power sum,I'd break it ,in more than two units...
As many ,as 1 Watt leds (for the same,total power) ,will allow me to build...

The spectra ,seems,a beauty,always hypothetical assuming...
Put it to a test...
...
Also ,I would prefer more round or square panels...
But this decision has to take into account ,the shape of available or intended_to_be_used, growth space...

....

 

[repuk]

I use a total different approach ..
Concerning number & power of leds...
Concerning number of panel units,also...

If I was to use your total power sum,I'd break it ,in more than two units...
As many ,as 1 Watt leds (for the same,total power) ,will allow me to build...

This way I think it will be cheaper/faster to build, though you're right regarding "power spread".

The spectra ,seems,a beauty,always hypothetical assuming...
Put it to a test...

That's what I wanted to know...

...
Also ,I would prefer more round or square panels...
But this decision has to take into account ,the shape of available or intended_to_be_used, growth space...
....

I'll check for available heatsinks, though narrower, longer ones use to be cheaper... I'm with you that the wider and more spaced the LEDs are, the better (both lightning and heat wise) but every optimization reaches the point of diminishing returns, first being cost.

I think this setup could be a intersting "testing" point.

I have even thought on making my own oil filled heatsinks, using commonly available aluminum profiles, welding a cap, filling them with motor oil then welding the other cap...

Welding would be done with durafix and a regular plumbers torch. Still have to get prices locally on heatsinks to see if its worth...

 

[stardustsailor]

LED bar intended height for optimal coverage goes between 15cm to about 1' (30cm) above canopy.

Since probably, you are not using any lenses,at 120° and with so much power packed in the unit,I'd stick to , round 0.3 m..

You want from each bar,to cover 0.5 m^2 ,right ?

At 30 cm & 120°,each panel covers approx(a bit more..) 1m^2..
So you will have ,also,combined the 'weak' flux ,from the half-angle of 50% R.P. and over..

That is good...Minimised " light losses"...
Plus,at 30 cm ,you 'll have better 'uniformity',regarding mixing of wavebands...

And pretty much power packed,to be at 0.3 m ,distance...

Seems a winner...

I'm expecting to see a jaw-dropping journal with 'em ,ok ?

 

[PetFlora]

You might be just right,about that...
Maybe they are too much..
Maybe no...

That's one of the many , small details,we haven't still,solved out completely..
-Stoners,you see...He-he-he...-
Many of them...
Way too many...(Maybe..)


But ,anyway,it does not seem to have any adverse effects ,regarding growing ( as observed and only...)..

But,yes..
Is this peak ,really needed ?
What if instead of 4 reds were 4 more warms....?

Which ultimately ,brings us to the bottom question...

Red 630's or Warm Whites ?

...
I give up...

I'm gonna think out loud here. We know Indicas like more red than blue; Sats the opposite, <(EDIT Indicas more Blue, Sats opposite) so maybe ~ 10% 630s on a separate switch just in case.

Case in point, I added 1/6 Coral Wave and my hybrids perked up, leafs reaching for the sky. Same thing happened in my Runt tent where after adding the 7.5w 'day light' led globe . Wait till you see those runts. lol They are now taller, fatter, fuller by ~40% than the lighting miscue in the main tent with 6 hardier seedlings.

So I think it is a good idea to account for Sat v Indica dom for consumer use. That said, one of the companies has a new led base where the led chip twists i/o. I am sure they are expensive, but you would only need ~ 10% this way

 

[PetFlora]

K.I.S.S
Maybe shotgun method???
http://www.cree.com/led-components-and-modules/products/xlamp/discrete-directional/~/media/Files/Cree/LED Components and Modules/XLamp/Data and Binning/XLampXPE2.pdf

There are 7 different flavors of white here.
Why not just sweep the band in a number of different ways?
How many runs would it take to explore the possibilities? (from educated guesses/dumb luck)
Tune the light like you would adjust the tone on the stereo.

I will be testing this with the low watt chinese led screw bulbs: I bought 2 @ 3 different K rated bulbs to add to the 2 I have in the Runt tent. Yesterday, I raided the bins at Lowes; sockets, Y splitters + lamp cord wire to build a ~ 3 ft fixture using 4" wide piece of wood. Alas, bulbs are on a slow boat from china- literally 2-4 weeks

 

[stardustsailor]

We know Indicas like more red than blue; Sats the opposite,



False.

A bit to the opposite side.

Further you move away from Equator the more blue..And less red...
Further you move close to Equator...More Reds..Blue stays the same....

Blue,Violet,Uvs increase(everywhere) with altitude and only...
(No..Wait a min...And with ozone layer holes,too....)

Useless Bit of info:
I,yes I and only me, have enough evidence to believe that the overall action spectrum of P,
for most C3 plants,has to be somewhere at the orange/red band of 590-620 max....
So,Personally I have reasons to seriously consider,that there ,takes place the biggest part of
energy production, by photon to electron ,quantum physics procedures....
Just BS,of mine,though..
Nothing to worry about...

 

[PetFlora]

We know Indicas like more red than blue; Sats the opposite,



False.

A bit to the opposite side.

Further you move away from Equator the more blue..And less red...
Further you move close to Equator...More Reds..Blue stays the same....

Blue,Violet,Uvs increase(everywhere) with altitude and only...
(No..Wait a min...And with ozone layer holes,too....)

Useless Bit of info:
I,yes I and only me, have enough evidence to believe that the overall action spectrum of P,
for most C3 plants,has to be somewhere at the orange/red band of 590-620 max....
So,Personally I have reasons to seriously consider,that there ,takes place the biggest part of
energy production, by photon to electron ,quantum physics procedures....
Just BS,of mine,though..
Nothing to worry about...

That's what I get for thinking before morning coffee clears the cob webs.

I must say, I am most grateful that you guys understand English (+ it's humorous nuances) and do an excellent job of conveying your knowledge, etc (et cetera/etcetera)



Useless Bit of info:
I,yes I and only me, have enough evidence to believe that the overall action spectrum of P,
for most C3 plants,has to be somewhere at the orange/red band of 590-620 max....
So,Personally I have reasons to seriously consider,that there ,takes place the biggest part of
energy production, by photon to electron ,quantum physics procedures....
Just BS,of mine,though..
Nothing to worry about...
FALSE

I was first alerted to this back in March by a fellow traveler on IC and later RIU, UN: SXS 646522. It was my light bulb moment . Since then, I have been alerting every led thread I find where people are building DIY panels

 

[stardustsailor]

I must say, I am most grateful that you guys understand English (+ it's humorous nuances) and do an excellent job of conveying your knowledge, etc (et cetera/etcetera)

Just the sh!tty ,that they taught us ,back at school-time..
....
From then and on,Hollywood,travelling and meeting people , have helped a bit ,I must say...
At least ,to most of " us "....

We thank you,back...

 

[repuk]

I found a source for the heatsinks. The same I already have a 500mm piece is 42&#8364; shipped for 1m, so I will have a spare 500mm heatsink. Another option would be a 100mm wide one, 1 meter is 65&#8364;. Those would allow for a nicer, more evenly spaced LED pattern:

This time everything is measured, scale for the sketch is 1:2. tenthirty, cannot find the XM-L PCB sizes from Rapid, coould you measure one? I assumed 20mm diameter...

I think it's a good rule of thumb to have about 2 sq cm per watt; with the cheaper heatsink option would be more than 4 sq cm per watt, while with the nicer, 100mm wide heatsink this would be more than 7sq cm per watt, maybe overkill. ah, decisions, decisions...

BTW I like sativa leaning hybrids, right now two fem. seedlings, 1 Somango, 1 Amnesia Haze. Of course I will be making a journal!

I expect to "finish" the chamber this Friday, will post pics. Walls already lined with reflective mylar sheet, axial extractor fan. Having trouble keeping proper veg RH levels, will tinker with a dimmer w/ the fan and mist maker placement today.

 

[PetFlora]

Right now this is what came out after some head scratching and tons of specsheet glancing:

In case you are open to suggestion... (without studying any 'data sheets') so TIFWIW

On the 2 outside rows the first 3 top and bottom I would put a NW in between= ww nw ww ww nw ww w. In the center row nw cw nw cw nw

 

[stardustsailor]

@PetFlora...
Sorry for asking ..
What the ...is that ?
SXS 646522.

 

[repuk]

Here's the sketch with a 60mm wide Heatsink.

Not so nice pattern, XP-G's would be about 2cm horizontally from each other, whereas with the 100mm one they would be 4cm apart.

 

[repuk]

In case you are open to suggestion... (without studying any 'data sheets') so TIFWIW

On the 2 outside rows the first 3 top and bottom I would put a NW in between= ww nw ww ww nw ww w. In the center row nw cw nw cw nw

So three NW and two CW... that would be an interesting pattern also!

Though I'm under the impression the XM-L CW adds little blue to the already present on the NW, it mostly widens the blue to 425nm from NW's 450nm. On the rest of the spectrum NWs put out much more relative power than the CWs...

Can't recall right now if that will make a difference, gonna check those ChA-ChB charts again!

 

[guod]

@PetFlora...
Sorry for asking ..
What the ...is that ?
SXS 646522.

UN = user nickname = SX646522 on ICMag

 

[stardustsailor]

And who might that be,please ?
( I don't go outside "home" ,very often you see....)

 

[Jahulath]

Oh,Jahulath,please specify, in a bit more details ,what do you mean by " pretty clear " ?
Well from pics in fact ,leds seem to grow more plant....

Well from this image the ones one the left look bigger. Not as healthy, not as neat, not as many leaves, just bigger.

Meaning ?
Ohh..Help me a bit...
Losing you here...

Well you have said yourself that you have "poisoned" and abused your plants a bit more than you would like. You are obviously studying and therefore you must use "scientific method" (I believe your country invented it!) for your testing. I was trying to say that there may not be as much benefit from worrying about the

small details,we haven't still,solved out completely..

- to put it another way, if you spend 95% of your time trying to perfect the last 5% of your project are you wasting your efforts?

Whow,brother...
Jahulath ,you're starting all wrong....
Forget Lumens...
Plants don't measure light by lumens ...

I actually laughed when I read this, and then felt a little hurt. You should know by now friend that I have read most of your posts and not only understood but agree with them ! I was putting forward a hypothetical scenario in which HID and LED are compared "like for like". What I was trying to convey is that even in such an arbitrary comparison the LED technology will usually win when you consider Heat+Light+Watts. Most HID lamps are still sold on their Lumen output, as are CFL bulbs so for my theoretical comparison it was correct.

You even went on to say why my comparison was correct!

HPS have a lot of green ..

More than that...My claim is that you need 9 to 12 panels for 1m^2 - like hps 400 Watt-..
So ,I really suppose that 10 of them make up for a 400 Watt Hps

Winner - I think you are right, in fact I never doubted it. All I really wanted to say was that you might tear your brain apart by combining too much theory with not enough physical testing. The gap between "scientific thinking" version of you and "stoned thinking" version of you shows in the variety of your posts

Just looking out for you bro!

 

[stardustsailor]

I actually laughed when I read this, and then felt a little hurt.

..
Never meant ,in any way or case , to make you feel like that !!!
..
Honestly !
.....
....

Most HID lamps are still sold on their Lumen output, as are CFL bulbs so for my theoretical comparison it was correct.

Yes,because they are made primarily for human use illumination.Not for plants canopies.
Yes,your comparison,regarding, those two & the leds ,is correct.Only for human vision terms,though....


tear your brain apart..

More ? It has more to be torn apart ?
Sh!t ....
(I've already said ,that it is too late ,concerning my case of madness...)



Thank you,brother anyway,for all the warm feelings....
Now to the point...
Fresh,today's news...
From the guys....
(I still , have to insist though,take the HPS ,out of the picture...Do not compare...Just for indication purposes only...)
...led 132 Watt

..hps 400Watt


Leds:more compact stature, stronger smell,more bigger+thinner leaves,more nodes,soft stems...
That's what they 've noticed so far....
(from what they've posted...)
.....


Thinking out loudly :
...soft stems....
-That's weird...Something to do with Ca++ absorbtion and / or utilisation on membrane cell (rigidity )and light ?

Or with cell's osmotic pressure (tension/stiffness by water ) ,meaning ultimately K+ uptake/use ? -
?....
Maybe,it's water uptake..
They seem healthy enough...

More blue ? (thiker stems....)
But Hps,either isn't a ' champ ' in blue ..
...
WTF ?

Oh....Si ( Silicone ) is missing from the diet...
But then why ,on hps's plants,stem is rigid ?

Tearing apart what is left of it ....
Love,doing it..
Live for the thrill of doing so...

 

[puffenuff]

Hey guys, I've been trying to follow along this thread but admittedly, a bunch of it is over my head. I've been thinking for a while now, and hoping you guys may be able to provide some insight.

First thing I ask myself is, what characteristic(s) of hps lights are the main reason they flower so well? Obviously, the greater focus of red spectrum...but could the large amounts of middle spectrum play a role? What about the great amount of far red??? I'll catch some flak for this next suggestion, but the high lumen output?

Ok, so now let's look at each characteristic...red spectrum...we have already focused on red leds for bloom and see success. Mid spectrum...selecting key mid nm has seen success as has using white leds to cover the broad range. These red + white and red + g/b/o/y/etc seem to do well. Similar to or slightly better than hps results.

Now what about larger amount of far red...i remember seeing a par output of a 600w hps and something like 30% of light was far red...could that be a big player in bloom? I think maybe...my tests with adding more far red seem to indicate faster development and denser buds. What do you think?

And lastly and more controversally, lumen output. Yes, I understand lumens are a measurement for human sight and in terms of plant biology, par is more relevant. I get that. But here is my hypothesis: I can see with my human eyes that lamps with more lumens are more intense. what if lumens (or intensity) actually matters to plants too? I understand that you can get a higher lumen output with white leds because mid wavelengths can inflate those measurements. But same is true with hps. What about plants grown outdoors where they recieve more intense amounts of sunlight...they tend to produce better. So what do you think about intensity as it relates to flowering? Can we improve on the intensity while also focusing on PAR?

Thanks and remember I'm just an average grower who buys pre-assembled panels that do a great job. My thoughts may seem uneducated compared to you guys, so please be gentle.

 

[stardustsailor]

Hey guys, I've been trying to follow along this thread but admittedly, a bunch of it is over my head. I've been thinking for a while now, and hoping you guys may be able to provide some insight.

Here is one ,totally sane ,at last....
Welcome...

First thing I ask myself is, what characteristic(s) of hps lights are the main reason they flower so well? Obviously, the greater focus of red spectrum...

Deeeeettt! Wrong...No reds in HPS..See for yourshelf....In a 400 Watt GP,120 Watt is turned into light flux(power)...from that ..
What do you say judging from graph ..25% ? Somewhere there...

And that's,supposedly, a specially designed HPS ,for plant illumination...
So only 30 Watts(best case assumption ) is actually red... ( about 80-150 x Warm Whites,@350mA leds ,maybe even less with top bins..
+ some watts ( 10-30 ) at blue,green,yellow ....)

but could the large amounts of middle spectrum play a role?

With certainty 99% ,I vote yes....

What about the great amount of far red???

Of course this ,also...

I'll catch some flak for this next suggestion, but the high lumen output?

Arrrrrghhhhhhhh......
......No!!!!!
...No comprede para Lumen...
Wattos per metros squeros ,por favor...
Habla , W/m^2 ?

Ok, so now let's look at each characteristic...red spectrum...we have already focused on red leds for bloom and see success. Mid spectrum...selecting key mid nm has seen success as has using white leds to cover the broad range. These red + white and red + g/b/o/y/etc seem to do well. Similar to or slightly better than hps results.

Now what about larger amount of far red...i remember seeing a par output of a 600w hps and something like 30% of light was far red...could that be a big player in bloom? I think maybe...my tests with adding more far red seem to indicate faster development and denser buds. What do you think?

=======>Please,enter...<===at own risk...======

And lastly and more controversally, lumen output. Yes, I understand lumens are a measurement for human sight and in terms of plant biology, par is more relevant. I get that.

I take everything back-about the spanish-,then...

But here is my hypothesis: I can see with my human eyes that lamps with more lumens are more intense. what if lumens (or intensity) actually matters to plants too?

It's sound's interesting...
How ,in what way could that be possible ?
Specially to green that they,mostly, reflect ?
The more green sensed ,the more the light power,out there .. ?
Well..I wish it was like that...
Nature says,differently...

I understand that you can get a higher lumen output with white leds because mid wavelengths can inflate those measurements. But same is true with hps. What about plants grown outdoors where they recieve more intense amounts of sunlight...they tend to produce better. So what do you think about intensity as it relates to flowering? Can we improve on the intensity while also focusing on PAR?

No...It doesn't stand so good as hypothesis...
During summer in i.e. Alaska ,the sun is never over your head...
It is rather in a steep angle..You see the sun still being ,at the horizon level,at 12: 00 noon...
Light penetrates(yes,here it does..)-refracts+diffuses through atmosphere's gases and water in vapor form...So light "loses" some wl bands...Get's filtered more ,if angle is steep...
More length of atm/re for the light to penetrate....
So Alaskan Sun is of less power,generally speaking from Equatorian sun,at summer..
(and at winter,in this particular case...)
And with way less orange/red/far red ,in it ......

With more diffused light....
Weird...
Everything there gets green ,quite rapidly,when the ice melts....
With what it seems ,no so much power...
How on earth ?
No matter if they have evolved to live there ...
Where they find the amount of power needed ,for that massive" green explosion ",that takes place when the ice is gone ?
That question stands against your hypothesis...
And many others..
( Sativas vs Indicas yields i.e. ......)
...
So,your hypothesis,arises doubts,about it's validity or even possible but unknown existance..
Everything is open ,for future verification,though....
....
He-he...
.....
Coverage,once more..
Who is more compact & bigger in diameter...(remeber/keep in mind : angle of light..diffused light )
-That concerning evolution,morphologically..aka structurally...-
And duration of illumination is the key secrets ,to this weird phenomenon....

Better,more efficient -through analogus mechanisms-use of light power...
Basic ability of all C3 higher plants....

So,no matter how "horsepower "(flux) is under the..."hood"...
If the gearbox/"brain"-cars have brains ?/whateva elsh.. =>(spectrum) is up to a limit,tuned ....
You have Torque.maybe ...
A lot maybe...
Maybe,way too much...
Power to spin...
Or at least ..
Will to spin..
But no 10.000 RPM.

And that's why , you see small european 1000cc tin buckets,reaching 200 mph...From red to red ....


( ...Sorry,no offence,meant. Or any hidden rascism or critisism..
Just spotting a different mentality ..
Radically different approaches...
..Different way of thinking..
(And why the h#ck,should we 've been the same ? )
But now ...
Nowdays...
The "big / large " becomes more & more scarce ..
Examine,also other options ,rather than mean power...
Or...
Use it more effectively...

Especially now in crisis time...
.....
In this strange land ,where I come from....
We say: " Hunger,first sharps the mind..." )

Thanks and remember I'm just an average grower who buys pre-assembled panels that do a great job. My thoughts may seem uneducated compared to you guys, so please be gentle.

You have done some excellent questions...
Gentle,we were ..Weren't we ?
...
How much a job is great ,is always based on the judging criteria ...
And results,yes.....Based on what criteria,exactly ?
g/w ?
g/kWh ? ..
lm/Watt ?
...
@Puffenuff...Please...Specify the basis criteria ...