How exactly does space/time fabric work?

[Dr Kynes]

They have to because their theories cannot stand on their own merit. Other credible theories, like evolution, can.



That is absolutely untrue. Disregard germ theory and modern medicine and watch how quickly you die. Disregard relativity and watch your gps system no longer work. These theories are accepted for good reason. Not because anyone demands or forces it.



How does not knowing the function of the appendix change the facts and evidence of any of the accepted theories brought up this far?

Biblical research. Stop being disingenuous you festering anal wart. If you don't understand the fundamental difference between real evidence and the garbage you are spewing then you are too stupid to converse with.

GPS uses triangulatiuon, and radio waves to establish and communicate your position, not relativity. both concepts (if not that particular implementation) predate einstein and his relativity theories by a VERY long time.

but to your first point, so if i close my eyes and wish real hard that newton and marconi were totally wrong then satellites will stop orbiting and radio waves will no longer transmit to receivers? wow.

if i disbelieve in germs, and instead place my faith in the theory that evil vapours cause disease i will just keel over and die? amazing.

the appendix, if you had read instead of blindly gnashing your teeth, is to my mind PROOF that intelligent design is bullshit, and evolution (with it's random mutations which may help, may hurt or may do nothing) caused species to evolve. im starting to think you only understand the ad hominem.

if i make the claim that shit stinks, i suspect you might smear some under your nose just to prove me wrong.

science is advanced by the best methods availabnle at the time, and rigorous study, argument, and testing not bold proclamations by ad hominem attack. Galileo was 'proved" wrong by the "scientific" and ecclesiastical courts which were the "peer review" and "scientific journals" of the time. THATS my fucking point. if you place blind faith in this poindexter, or that theory you may find yourself supporting a lie, and insulting, defaming and slandering somebody who is RIGHT just because the authorities disagree with his heresy!

if you want to believe that the earth is hollow, anfd munchkins and gnomes live on the inner convex surface around a tiny inner sun then you can believe the fuck out of that, it doesnt hurt me and you belief will NOT make it true.

right now your just a few steps remioved from declaring me a witch and demanding i be burnt at the stake for my traffick with the devil for daring to believe in the universe described by my god, my grandfather, newton and my past mentors.

wow. maybe im just an unrepentant apostate. get the torches.

 

[mindphuk]

GPS uses triangulatiuon, and radio waves to establish and communicate your position, not relativity. both concepts (if not that particular implementation) predate einstein and his relativity theories by a VERY long time.

Do some more research, you'll figure it out...
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=gps+and+general+relativity

 

[guy incognito]

GPS uses triangulatiuon, and radio waves to establish and communicate your position, not relativity. both concepts (if not that particular implementation) predate einstein and his relativity theories by a VERY long time.

It uses relativity to synchronize times and positions. It will not work correctly if you do not account for the effects of relativity. You are definitely showing your ignorance here.

but to your first point, so if i close my eyes and wish real hard that newton and marconi were totally wrong then satellites will stop orbiting and radio waves will no longer transmit to receivers? wow.

That wasn't my first point. My point was that facts are facts. Believe whatever you want, but the evidence is out there plain as day for anyone to investigate.

Note that this is NOT true for creationism or any religious belief. There is not any data or evidence to back them up, which is why they are bullshit. There is a mountain of data to back up evolution and newton. There is a fundamental difference between a real theory and what you seem to consider a "theory".

if i disbelieve in germs, and instead place my faith in the theory that evil vapours cause disease i will just keel over and die? amazing.

Not instantly like you imply, but yes. It is the reason you sanitize your food area, wash your hands, avoid people that are sick, avoid eating spoiled food, take antibiotics etc. If you truly did not believe in germ theory you would not perform those activities. And yes those germs would get to you because germ theory is the reality.

 

[guy incognito]

science is advanced by the best methods availabnle at the time, and rigorous study, argument, and testing not bold proclamations by ad hominem attack. Galileo was 'proved" wrong by the "scientific" and ecclesiastical courts which were the "peer review" and "scientific journals" of the time. THATS my fucking point. if you place blind faith in this poindexter, or that theory you may find yourself supporting a lie, and insulting, defaming and slandering somebody who is RIGHT just because the authorities disagree with his heresy!

I notice that you incorrectly used every single word in quotes. Arbitrarily changing the meaning of words does very little to prove your point.

No one "proved" the theories in question by strong arming anyone. They were proved with evidence and facts. Real evidence, not just because one dude or group says so, but because it is real and you can go check it yourself.

 

[Dr Kynes]

I notice that you incorrectly used every single word in quotes. Arbitrarily changing the meaning of words does very little to prove your point.

No one "proved" the theories in question by strong arming anyone. They were proved with evidence and facts. Real evidence, not just because one dude or group says so, but because it is real and you can go check it yourself.

they are in quotes because they were the terms used incorrectly, thus the claim by the "scientific" courts of rome were not scientific, even if thet was what they purported to be.

the catholic "scientific" authorities and their ecclesiastical courts "proved" gallileo wrong despite the rightness of his theory. just as the false claims of a round earth being columbus's idea, native americans being given blankets deliberately infested with smallpox, and ancient celts being illiterate are all untruths accepted by many of the official sources today. many still believe these stories and many textbooks still publish it as true, but it aint.

likewise your insistence that theres no "strong arming" why does it offend you if i allow myself to presume that photons have a mass. and you cant even say i am wrong if i accept that that mass is UDER the upper limit placed on that mass by every scientific authority available.

"so close to zero that we cant say for sure it's not some infinitesimally small number, but we can say for sure it is less than 1 times negative 10 the the 18th electron volts divided by c squared." is still not zero. and if it's not zero then it could be somewhere between zero and the limit. or it could be zero, with photons having some property that acts like mass so convincingly that at times it can seem like mass, even if it is some as yet undiscovered force.

your insistence that it is simply ZERO is arbitrary, and according to all data available unproven.

can you hear me up there on your high horse? IF photons do have mass then it is almost certainly under the limit currently established, but if they have any mass at all then many current theories are wrong. that is why one simple farmhand asking questions makes you so infuriated. you fear your house may be made of straw and ill huff and puff and blow it down? or my disbelief of your communications will destabilize the universe causing the big bang to reverse? i had no idea i had such power.

when i was in school electrons had zero mass too. all my textbooks said it. all mass resided in the nucleus. in 30 years who can saay what the mass of a photon might be, but for now it acts like it has mass to me and thats good enough for my universe's operations.

 

[Dr Kynes]

Do some more research, you'll figure it out...
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=gps+and+general+relativity

einsteins theories being an attempt to explain EVERYTHING being used in SOMETHING which comes under the heading of EVERYTHING.

"A GPS receiver in an airplane determines its current position and heading by comparing the time signals it receives from a number of the GPS satellites (usually 6 to 12) and triangulating on the known positions of each satellite"

that relativity is involved is not in doubt but the basic principles are radio waves and triangulation.

i could claim that the venturi principle explains why ships with triangular sails can tack against the wind, even though they existed before venturi ever drew breath or anton leeuwenhoek's research into microorganisms allowed people to see critters which were previously only theorized. this does not mean leeuwenhoek created the first microorganism, or that he gets a check every time somebody's yoghurt sets.

fundamental principles are fundamental. we use them even if we dont acknowledge them understand them or believe in them. cars do not work because einstien's theories are pretty darn good. they work because the fundamental prinicples work on the scale that the car operates on in a predictable manner. if einstein's theories are overturned cars will not stop working until a new physical model is in place. cars wont even noticce that the scientific world is all abuzz with the coming coronation of a new physical model. cars will simply operate as expected within their design parameters even if the designers are shitting themselves over some new theories.

 

[mindphuk]

that relativity is involved is not in doubt but the basic principles are radio waves and triangulation.

So does this mean you are backing off from your previous statement?

GPS uses triangulatiuon, and radio waves to establish and communicate your position, not relativity.

You seem to love to misdirect and attempt to distract from the point rather than just admit you fucked up or didn't even know.

I shouldn't have to even address your stupid analogies but because they are such a ridiculous, transparent attempt to confound and hide the fact of your ignorance, I will.

The fact that something exists before it's discovery was NOT the point. Yes, the affects of General Relativity existed before Einstein describes them, but the fact is, general relativity actually MUST BE TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT in order for GPS to work. Unlike your point about cars, GPS will FAIL without the US Navy actively adjusting for the drift that occurs because of GR!!! It must be applied just as much as the geometry of triangulation and science of radio transmission.

You clearly said GPS doesn't use relativity. You did not imply it, you actually made that statement... and when proven wrong you obfuscate and attempt to turn the fact that you fucked up back on me when all I did was point out your error of omission. This clearly shows you as petty and acrimonious. Your attempt to paint me as a fool by trying to shift the argument and pretend I said something different than what I said is inexcusable and the intelligent posters here can see what you tried to do. I have little patience for this kind of dishonesty, not because of your attempt to skate away from and cover up your fuck up, but because you used to try to paint me as the villain. Grow the fuck up and get some fucking humility.

 

[guy incognito]

they are in quotes because they were the terms used incorrectly, thus the claim by the "scientific" courts of rome were not scientific, even if thet was what they purported to be.

the catholic "scientific" authorities and their ecclesiastical courts "proved" gallileo wrong despite the rightness of his theory. just as the false claims of a round earth being columbus's idea, native americans being given blankets deliberately infested with smallpox, and ancient celts being illiterate are all untruths accepted by many of the official sources today. many still believe these stories and many textbooks still publish it as true, but it aint.

likewise your insistence that theres no "strong arming" why does it offend you if i allow myself to presume that photons have a mass. and you cant even say i am wrong if i accept that that mass is UDER the upper limit placed on that mass by every scientific authority available.

"so close to zero that we cant say for sure it's not some infinitesimally small number, but we can say for sure it is less than 1 times negative 10 the the 18th electron volts divided by c squared." is still not zero. and if it's not zero then it could be somewhere between zero and the limit. or it could be zero, with photons having some property that acts like mass so convincingly that at times it can seem like mass, even if it is some as yet undiscovered force.

your insistence that it is simply ZERO is arbitrary, and according to all data available unproven.

can you hear me up there on your high horse? IF photons do have mass then it is almost certainly under the limit currently established, but if they have any mass at all then many current theories are wrong. that is why one simple farmhand asking questions makes you so infuriated. you fear your house may be made of straw and ill huff and puff and blow it down? or my disbelief of your communications will destabilize the universe causing the big bang to reverse? i had no idea i had such power.

when i was in school electrons had zero mass too. all my textbooks said it. all mass resided in the nucleus. in 30 years who can saay what the mass of a photon might be, but for now it acts like it has mass to me and thats good enough for my universe's operations.

Because my belief in a massless photon is not dogmatic, it's backed by evidence, just like evolution and relativity. Do you honestly not see that major fundamental difference between them?

It's not arbitrary at all. It is predicted by theory. The same theories have have tons of data backing them up.

If you want to prove any of the tried and true theories that have been mentioned in this thread you are going to need some real evidence. Claiming an entire theory that is over 100 years old and has mountains of data, every single piece of which confirms the theory, is wrong because your intuition tells you that a photon must weigh something is fucking insane. You have absolutely no data. You are unsatisfied with their level of precision, which is pretty fucking high btw.

 

[Doer]

Kynes, I know Doctors and you are no Doctor.

Everything is subject to relativity. Certainly the GPS cloud has to take all those effects into account to get the vast accuracy required. You seem be carrying big grudges. But, have a sandy foundation in Science.
You seem against Research, Europe, Conclusions, the Understanding and sadly you must be against Fiction itself, since you butcher even that.

You are muttering your own mixed Fantasy world. There is no science you can discuss and so you are in the wrong section with you inability to communicate in a honest fashion.

We are not talking about beliefs. Hie thee home, Hobbit.

Science is the discovery, not the creation. It is math, not the definition. You are not telling the difference.

 

[Dr Kynes]

So does this mean you are backing off from your previous statement?

You seem to love to misdirect and attempt to distract from the point rather than just admit you fucked up or didn't even know.

I shouldn't have to even address your stupid analogies but because they are such a ridiculous, transparent attempt to confound and hide the fact of your ignorance, I will.

The fact that something exists before it's discovery was NOT the point. Yes, the affects of General Relativity existed before Einstein describes them, but the fact is, general relativity actually MUST BE TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT in order for GPS to work. Unlike your point about cars, GPS will FAIL without the US Navy actively adjusting for the drift that occurs because of GR!!! It must be applied just as much as the geometry of triangulation and science of radio transmission.

You clearly said GPS doesn't use relativity. You did not imply it, you actually made that statement... and when proven wrong you obfuscate and attempt to turn the fact that you fucked up back on me when all I did was point out your error of omission. This clearly shows you as petty and acrimonious. Your attempt to paint me as a fool by trying to shift the argument and pretend I said something different than what I said is inexcusable and the intelligent posters here can see what you tried to do. I have little patience for this kind of dishonesty, not because of your attempt to skate away from and cover up your fuck up, but because you used to try to paint me as the villain. Grow the fuck up and get some fucking humility.

you are thickheaded like i cant believe.

gps uses triangulation and radio waves as stated in the posted citation. using relativistic calculations to calibrate the satellites does not mean they use einsteinian magical crystal balls to determine your position.


the only one being dishonest is yourself. claiming that newton's laws are abrogated because einstein says the universe is made of shit that cant be measured, onyl theorized and mathematically shoehorned does not prove shit, it doesnt even sound convincing.

you insist that photons have a mass of zero. i find that unlikely. every source i read says photns have zero mass, but then states that "zero" means less than X, but not quite provably zero. you dont mention the less than X part you siimply bray about zeros and say that the proof is that if it's not zero then other theories wouldnt work right. well maybe those other theories are fucking wrong!


theres a fucking shitload of theories that wer once though quite good that now are considered dead ass wrong!

the Aether theories, but now some scientists are looking at the aether theories with a new eye. ZOMG heretics! BURN THEM!!
"nothing goes faster than light" or does it? no it doesnt, oh wait... we will see soon enough.
man cannot survive passing through the van allen belt! ohh wait...
canals on mars...
no water on the moon
pluto is a planet
even some of einsteins theories were rejected, then un-rejected (dont ask me to name them youre the one who claims the expertise, i just remember something i read)
and many more.

your dead certainty that photon mass = zero is at odds with every source i could find, so who the fuck is in need of humility? (also humility is not a virtue in my religion)

 

[guy incognito]

you are thickheaded like i cant believe.

gps uses triangulation and radio waves as stated in the posted citation. using relativistic calculations to calibrate the satellites does not mean they use einsteinian magical crystal balls to determine your position.

Dude, how do you still not get it? There is no einsteinian crystal ball, they use the equations of relativity. If you neglect those equations and assume there is no time dilation and everything is perfectly Euclidean then your gps will not work. The satellites all have to be synchronized correctly and if they aren't then you get fucked up time stamps when you receive your gps signal, then your gps incorrectly calculates your position based on the incorrect times. You have to account for the effects of relativity or gps absolutely will not work. This point is no longer up for discussion.

 

[guy incognito]

the only one being dishonest is yourself. claiming that newton's laws are abrogated because einstein says the universe is made of shit that cant be measured, onyl theorized and mathematically shoehorned does not prove shit, it doesnt even sound convincing.

you insist that photons have a mass of zero. i find that unlikely. every source i read says photns have zero mass, but then states that "zero" means less than X, but not quite provably zero. you dont mention the less than X part you siimply bray about zeros and say that the proof is that if it's not zero then other theories wouldnt work right. well maybe those other theories are fucking wrong!


theres a fucking shitload of theories that wer once though quite good that now are considered dead ass wrong!

the Aether theories, but now some scientists are looking at the aether theories with a new eye. ZOMG heretics! BURN THEM!!
"nothing goes faster than light" or does it? no it doesnt, oh wait... we will see soon enough.
man cannot survive passing through the van allen belt! ohh wait...
canals on mars...
no water on the moon
pluto is a planet
even some of einsteins theories were rejected, then un-rejected (dont ask me to name them youre the one who claims the expertise, i just remember something i read)
and many more.

your dead certainty that photon mass = zero is at odds with every source i could find, so who the fuck is in need of humility? (also humility is not a virtue in my religion)

 

[Dr Kynes]

Dude, how do you still not get it? There is no einsteinian crystal ball, they use the equations of relativity. If you neglect those equations and assume there is no time dilation and everything is perfectly Euclidean then your gps will not work. The satellites all have to be synchronized correctly and if they aren't then you get fucked up time stamps when you receive your gps signal, then your gps incorrectly calculates your position based on the incorrect times. You have to account for the effects of relativity or gps absolutely will not work. This point is no longer up for discussion.

finer calibrations are needed for better precision measurements, am i disputing that? NO, you wish to colour me as disputing this fact so your ad hominems will be punchier and you can post more pictures with words on them.

the fact remains i use better instruments and finer calculations to make my rifle cartridges than i do when loading a black powder musket. this does not mean that the existence of modern self contained cartridges makes black powder flintlocks fail to work. they use the SAME principles in a new application, but the measurements must be finer due to tighter tolerances. likewise most of einstein's theories are holding up just fine without your broad shoulder supporting the whole model like a scientific atlas ensuring that the universe moves in time to the music of the spheres.

MOST of einsteins theories work quite well, but some of it is looking a little wobbly. thats what really pisses you off i guess, that the theories which give your life meaning might be overturned for something different. so it's time to go all orthodox, and demand that the mass be spake only in latin, and the sacred texts be kept from the hands of the great unwashed masses.

or you could just start setting car bombs. thats another popular choice to vent the rage of dimwits who insist on their doctrine's supremacy.

 

[Dr Kynes]

in response,

 

[guy incognito]

finer calibrations are needed for better precision measurements, am i disputing that? NO, you wish to colour me as disputing this fact so your ad hominems will be punchier and you can post more pictures with words on them.

the fact remains i use better instruments and finer calculations to make my rifle cartridges than i do when loading a black powder musket. this does not mean that the existence of modern self contained cartridges makes black powder flintlocks fail to work. they use the SAME principles in a new application, but the measurements must be finer due to tighter tolerances. likewise most of einstein's theories are holding up just fine without your broad shoulder supporting the whole model like a scientific atlas ensuring that the universe moves in time to the music of the spheres.

MOST of einsteins theories work quite well, but some of it is looking a little wobbly. thats what really pisses you off i guess, that the theories which give your life meaning might be overturned for something different. so it's time to go all orthodox, and demand that the mass be spake only in latin, and the sacred texts be kept from the hands of the great unwashed masses.

or you could just start setting car bombs. thats another popular choice to vent the rage of dimwits who insist on their doctrine's supremacy.

You clearly don't know shit. It's not a matter of better precision measurements with gps. It's a matter of the real world consequences of relativity. When speeds are very low and differences in gravity are ignored the relativistic equations simplify to newtons equations. No matter how precise the clocks are, time itself is actually different and must be accounted for. I don't know what you aren't understanding about this.

You are using the same principals and fundamentals when you are filling cartridges. It may have higher precision than other instruments, but fundamentally it is exactly the same. Relativity is fundamentally different than Newtonian mechanics. It's the same general idea, but the equations are different. So far 100% of the evidence points to relativity fitting reality.

Which theories of einsteins do not work, or have been disproven? I also want to point out that I never said einstein was 100% correct or infallible. I said relativity is the best working model and has 100% success rate to date. If you think different bring some evidence to the table.

 

[guy incognito]

or you could just start setting car bombs. thats another popular choice to vent the rage of dimwits who insist on their doctrine's supremacy.

Do you honestly not see the fundamental difference between insisting a certain theory has enough credible evidence to be considered correct, and blind faith? Are you a troll or just really stupid?

 

[mindphuk]

finer calibrations are needed for better precision measurements, am i disputing that? NO, you wish to colour me as disputing this fact so your ad hominems will be punchier and you can post more pictures with words on them.

the fact remains i use better instruments and finer calculations to make my rifle cartridges than i do when loading a black powder musket. this does not mean that the existence of modern self contained cartridges makes black powder flintlocks fail to work. they use the SAME principles in a new application, but the measurements must be finer due to tighter tolerances. likewise most of einstein's theories are holding up just fine without your broad shoulder supporting the whole model like a scientific atlas ensuring that the universe moves in time to the music of the spheres.

MOST of einsteins theories work quite well, but some of it is looking a little wobbly. thats what really pisses you off i guess, that the theories which give your life meaning might be overturned for something different. so it's time to go all orthodox, and demand that the mass be spake only in latin, and the sacred texts be kept from the hands of the great unwashed masses.

or you could just start setting car bombs. thats another popular choice to vent the rage of dimwits who insist on their doctrine's supremacy.

My guess is that you were too fucking pigheaded to actually read any of the links. When I saw this shit explained the first time, it blew my mind and here you are acting like it's part of everyday experiences for you. Oh, just more precise calculations. I regret to inform you you need to discontinue to post without actually doing the research that I first suggested way back when you started your ridiculous attempts to cover the fact that you have no idea what you are talking about. First you claim relativity isn't involved, then you wave it off as merely precision in calculating orbits or some such shit, you know like most rocket scientists do daily. When in fact, the USN has a whole unit working around the clock to keep the GPS ATOMIC CLOCKS in sync with the ones on earth, otherwise our relativistic effects of time dilation occur both because of gravity and GR but also orbital speed SR effects which can be predetermined allow them to purposely make the onboard clocks slower to compensate. Without such corrections the distances error rate would become progressively worse over time making them useless. I mean you can't ask for better real world engineering application of Einstein's theory. Burying your head in the sand by trying to downplay the requirement to apply Einstein to specifically the GPS satellites, and hoping no one notices how stupid you are continuing to sound because you failed to do the proper research has failed. EVERYONE has noticed. Everyone has stopped taking anything you say about science serious anymore. Originally, you appeared to have some chops, at least I recall some knowledge about the scientific method and what it can, as well as cannot do, but now, your babbling regression to pseudoscientific jargon and attempts at similar argument construction merely tells me my radar was off -- trying to paint rationalists as people who's lives would crash down if Einstein's theories were falsified in some regard. This one's always defeatable by pointing to the actual reaction of scientists when it appeared neutrinos violated light speed. They were calm, welcoming a chance to find a new problem to work on. Your idiotic portrayal of the true value of modern scientific consensus makes it obvious you don't have a real true understanding of the process and how that's what's revered, not the work of imperfect humans, genius although they may be.

I usually can peg a woo artist within one or two posts. The problem is when you guys act as if they shouldn't care whether they're talking to laymen or actual working scientists, you know, one that makes his or her living avoiding the sloppy thinking that many people, including some scientists, delude themselves into thinking they are being logical. A good, critical thinker shouldn't be afraid of criticism of your underlying thought processes, probably more so than when the product of that thought is argued. The only way to know if one is actually not thinking critically, is if you stop and think and go through the process, evaluate each step from the beginning. This is another conflict of being human and being a critical thinker. A human doesn't ever really want to be wrong. I hate being wrong. It makes you feel stupid sometimes. A duh, moment. We all have them and hate to admit when it happens. However, I like learning about being wrong. Some of the best stories in all of history both fact and fiction, has to do with important people being wrong.

Wow, I'm rambling, I had some edibles earlier and I am only now just noticing the effects.

 

[cannabineer]

Do you honestly not see the fundamental difference between insisting a certain theory has enough credible evidence to be considered correct, and blind faith? Are you a troll or just really stupid?

I am personally amazed and impressed that there are now clocks so sensitive and precise (and portable) that they can be used as altimeters ... sensors for the gravitational relativity effect. cn

 

[Seedling]

I am personally amazed and impressed that there are now clocks so sensitive and precise (and portable) that they can be used as altimeters ... sensors for the gravitational relativity effect. cn

One better than that, there exists an expanding light sphere that has a radius of ct. Kinda makes your theory obsolete, eh?

 

[Samwell Seed Well]

I am personally amazed and impressed that there are now clocks so sensitive and precise (and portable) that they can be used as altimeters ... sensors for the gravitational relativity effect. cn

nice theory . . . .. .lol