How do you become a better person, and why should you?

[Zaehet Strife]

I may have an idea of what you mean, i have also had something happen to me (and my little brother) that was so profound, so intense, so all consuming... an unexplainable experience that hit every part of my, and his, being. (We were not intoxicated in the least bit)

I understand that everyone who experiences something like this, may experience it somewhat differently.

But i also understand, that while this experience is happening... if we start to think about it, it starts to go away. (at least for me) To be able to hold onto it... one must have "no-mind".

As soon as it was over, i automatically and innately gave it meaning. After a while, i understood what i had done when i did that...

When i chose to give this overwhelming experience meaning, i changed it from what it was... a profound, intense, all consuming unexplainable experience, into exactly what it was not (the meaning that i gave it).

I understood then, that because of my preconceptions contingent on the environment i was born in, the culture, how i was raised, and all the experiences i have ever been through... because of these ideas i had, when i gave this experience meaning... i knew i was changing it from what it was, into what it isn't.

I realized that if i was born somewhere else, in some other environment and culture, and raised a different way... i would have given this experience an entirely different meaning.

With this realization being true... how can i be certain that the meaning i have given this experience is true? I realized that i couldn't, than no matter how badly i want to be certain of what that experience was and meant, that i really didn't know. That if i am to be truthful to myself, id have to leave the experience as it was, instead of changing it into what it is not... which is exactly what i want it to be.

I know that once i put meaning behind this kind of experience, i change it from what it was... an overwhelmingly unexplainable experience, into what it is not...which is my personal interpretation of that experience.

 

[Padawanbater2]

First of all there is no such thing as good or bad, you define whats "good or bad" from your own personal experiences throughout life. Thats why people like Hitler and Mit Romney could sleep at night because they honestly believe there is nothing "wrong" with their ideas, simply because none of their previous experiences in life have related those intentions to "bad".

Its no different than a little kid in Afghanistan screaming "kill americans!". To that little kid it is the correct thing to do because its what he was taught from an infant, therefore it is not the little kids fault at all, if anything its his guardians fault, BUT the guardian may ALSO be subject to the exact same upbringing.

I think the goodness or badness of any person can be measured by the effects of it's consequences.

 

[cannabineer]

I think I get most of what you're saying, Zaehet. I have an almost-automatic part of me that seeks to invest experiences with as little meaning as possible "up front", which aids in directly experiencing them. Even as I think back, I find myself scrutinizing my thoughts and memories: am I taking the meaning given, or am I imposing my own?

But we are humans, and we are predisposed to traffic in meaning. It's a cornerstone of how we do and think about things. I don't claim to be clear of that trap. cn

 

[Zaehet Strife]

I think I get most of what you're saying, Zaehet. I have an almost-automatic part of me that seeks to invest experiences with as little meaning as possible "up front", which aids in directly experiencing them. Even as I think back, I find myself scrutinizing my thoughts and memories: am I taking the meaning given, or am I imposing my own?

But we are humans, and we are predisposed to traffic in meaning. It's a cornerstone of how we do and think about things. I don't claim to be clear of that trap. cn

Just got back from the store, was thinking about what you might reply the whole time... you never let me down CN, that was well thought out and fantastically put. Impressed. Thanks for the sweet convo. and inspiration for my replies.

 

[cannabineer]

Just got back from the store, was thinking about what you might reply the whole time... you never let me down CN, that was well thought out and fantastically put. Impressed. Thanks for the sweet convo. and inspiration for my replies.

And I just got back form a "forced march" in my favorite hills (I hike to try to delay the loss of my physical strength) to find your very gracious reply. i have truly enjoyed this exchange as well. You helped me remember, and invited me to think. cn

 

[eye exaggerate]

I had a christian background as well, just as many, many others did too. So i don't understand how you can't not keep it, although i do understand how difficult it is to rid yourself of it.

Cn, i don't understand why you think someone cannot choose what to have faith in? Or is it just you, or am i just reading it wrong?

...you say 'rid yourself of it' like it's a plague.

...so, will you be the first person in your family tree to effectively rid yourself of a 1/4 of your brain? That's like, 7 grams of sweet consciousness you're throwing away there dude

 

[Zaehet Strife]

...you say 'rid yourself of it' like it's a plague.

...so, will you be the first person in your family tree to effectively rid yourself of a 1/4 of your brain? That's like, 7 grams of sweet consciousness you're throwing away there dude

No, by ridding myself of the stories and ideas that i was indoctrinated with as a child by my parents and authority figures of the church, i was able to open my mind to new ideas, to new information...instead of blocking out the ideas that either made me feel uncomfortable, or did not coincide with the beliefs i was ingrained with.

Did you ever try going into church as a child and asking the minister about the big bang or evolution/natural selection? This is not a very good idea, i know from experience. To ask your minister as a child about everyone else in the world having a different religion, if they were going to go to hell when they die and hearing them with unyielding conviction that yes... they would go to hell, even if they have never heard of christianity.

When we rid ourselves of religion and preconditioned ideas and truths that we have been force fed, we open our minds up to infinite possibility and wonder, an unquenchable thirst for knowledge about how the universe REALLY works, rather than taking the words of another at face value... we must study, research and experiment for ourselves to try and figure out what is really going on.

The deeper you search, and the more you learn about the universe... from general relativity and how the universe operates on extremely massive scales, to quantum mechanics and how the universe works at subatomic scales... the more you learn and understand, the more you come to the realization that the more you learn, the more avenues of knowledge open up for discovery, it is a never ending cycle of learning, discovering and unlocking deeper and deeper secrets of the universe.

The more you learn, the more you realize just how much there is that you do not know.

 

[eye exaggerate]

No, by ridding myself of the stories and ideas that i was indoctrinated with as a child by my parents and authority figures of the church, i was able to open my mind to new ideas, to new information...instead of blocking out the ideas that either made me feel uncomfortable, or did not coincide with the beliefs i was ingrained with.

Did you ever try going into church as a child and asking the minister about the big bang or evolution/natural selection? This is not a very good idea, i know from experience. To ask your minister as a child about everyone else in the world having a different religion, if they were going to go to hell when they die and hearing them with unyielding conviction that yes... they would go to hell, even if they have never heard of christianity.

When we rid ourselves of religion and preconditioned ideas and truths that we have been force fed, we open our minds up to infinite possibility and wonder, an unquenchable thirst for knowledge about how the universe REALLY works, rather than taking the words of another at face value... we must study, research and experiment for ourselves to try and figure out what is really going on.

The deeper you search, and the more you learn about the universe... from general relativity and how the universe operates on extremely massive scales, to quantum mechanics and how the universe works at subatomic scales... the more you learn and understand, the more you come to the realization that the more you learn, the more avenues of knowledge open up for discovery, it is a never ending cycle of learning, discovering and unlocking deeper and deeper secrets of the universe.

The more you learn, the more you realize just how much there is that you do not know.

...all is connected, that is what I current hold as 'know'.

...I guess I was lucky being catholic because no hell was ever mentioned. Candles, in my day we burned candles

...can you believe that? No hell was mentioned in any church service I went to as a child. But, I can say that the stories they told hold true today. In fact, they always will. If they sound like fairy tales it's because they are. The story is always about love. Learn to love yourself, and you'll love others. Our perception of that simple teaching gets more and more tainted as we age. I guess it's up to us to 'become like children' and get back to living without the lenses of our preconceptions. Same-same, spec!



...you mentioned no-mind before. No-Mindedness is always open. That doesn't fit with excluding your heritage.

 

[Beefbisquit]

I think the goodness or badness of any person can be measured by the effects of it's consequences.

Spoken like a true Utilitarian!


On another note;

Someone had eluded to complete moral ambiguity, but that's clearly not the case. Virtually every society holds some form of 'do not murder (for no reason)' clause in their society. Almost all societies view incest as wrong. There are exceptions to the rules, but to elude to complete moral ambiguity is incorrect.

[video=youtube_share;Hj9oB4zpHww]http://youtu.be/Hj9oB4zpHww[/video]

I really enjoy this video by Sam Harris, I hope you guys do too!

 

[Padawanbater2]

That's the clip I was talking about, nice find

Harris is a smart dude..

 

[Chief Walkin Eagle]

...very simple (I think!). A person needs to keep those teachings because they were formative. I kept my 'christian' background because I can't not keep it. It's a 'background'. It's my 'home base'. Thing is, now that I'm a little older I need to examine the background and find where I fit in it. All the other teachings worldwide are (in their synthesis) saying the same thing. It's a matter of gaining better comprehension of 'who I am'. Denying other religions is not a great plan in my best estimation. 'Christ' is universal (Christ as in 'generative light'). Every religious avatar did a specific thing. I like to learn from each of them.

Hmm, I still have a bunch of questions to bombard you with lol. Im assuming you acknowledge that Jesus (or a person/people like Jesus) existed once upon a time, but you choose to make your own path with his advice instead of worshiping him? Or do you look at the word "Christ" as a form of consciousness (for lack of a better word) instead of a person?. I am not too familiar with the sub categories of Christianity, do all Catholics tend to put less importance on 'hell' and focus on a more positive, less aggressive message or did you grow up in a unique background where open mindedness to new ideas was encouraged?

I like to think that 'Jesus' was trying to make us like him, instead of worshiping him. Any man of god/love must feel silly if people are worshiping him, imo. We are children of god, what does that make us when we grow up? Dont need to answer that one. I think the second coming of Christ is the second coming of Christ consciousness. A consciousness that will be shared by many people, after an apocalyptic event of course lol. I also think a bearded white man/men of god will come around this time too. Many cultures around the world speak of a bearded white man saving them in some way or form, and those cultures were not supposed to of had contact with any white people at the time. I like the Hopi prophecy the best, those Native Americans predicted events with alarming accuracy. Im pretty sure only one of the nine prophecies is left to be fulfilled and thats the coming of Pahana (Great white brother), the end of this world and the beginning of the next.

 

[high|hgih]

Well, everyone has their own philosophy. I think that being genuinely nice and shrugging off the negativity that people shoot at you is a start. They are speaking out of anger or ignorance. And both are understandable. They can't help it. Nor can you if you are not ignorant, but just angry. And if your ignorant.. Well then, you probably don't know.

The reason to be a better person is that most people recognize your ability to put up with shit, people seeing you as a positive person will never hurt you(In some cases it may not help you, if others think your positiveness is a bunch of shit, they are jealous and angry. Forget them.). The ones that don't, forget them... Its just better not to think about. Don't think negatively, you don't know them. Perhaps they have no penis.

 

[HeartlandHank]

And, what does that even mean? Better person..

I feel like most people don't bother with that type of shit, they get theirs, that's all that matters.

Is striving to become a better person even worth it if everyone else doesn't give a shit?

What does it accomplish? Does it simply give us the knowledge of being able to live with ourselves? Why does that matter?


In a weird sense, sometimes I feel like since other people don't care for me or anyone else, why should I care for them? It seems so prevalent, the harsh reality of existence, where people are always in it for themselves, and being someone who cares for other people or the majority of peoples well being is useless. Why do it? Why bother? Why not just work to make your own life worth living, worth something that makes you wake up every day and not kill yourself?

Why do people even bother with creating things like vaccines or smart cars to eliminate pollution if half the people these things are meant for don't believe they work, and in fact believe they create some type of autism or brain damage or don't believe in global warming? Why care about these fucks? Why care about what they think? Why try to help them? Where's the motivation, the acknowledgement, the "thank you for progressing our world"?

Nowhere. So why fucking bother?

Being a living example probably has a larger influence on the population than you think.
I'm no model human, that's for sure. But I would say the "Golden Rule" is pretty much a streamline to being a "good person". I've thought about this before... they key to really practicing the golden rule is to overcome selfishness. I'm selfish as all hell at times, but I recognize that.
I'm convinced... anything we do that harms other people is out of selfishness. We feel that our needs (reasons for doing so) are more important than the well being of the person effected, or the victim of our actions. Even though we know that we would not want to be on the other end of the deal. So if we do it anyway, knowing that the person on the other end is getting something we don't want, we are being selfish and not living by the Golden Rule.

As far as people becoming more progressive... a progressive position doesn't make someone a good person. Imo.

Living in a capitalist society... it's hard to not be selfish and still experience success. I don't think there is anything wrong with being a billionaire, but there is something wrong with exploiting people.

 

[eye exaggerate]

Hmm, I still have a bunch of questions to bombard you with lol. Im assuming you acknowledge that Jesus (or a person/people like Jesus) existed once upon a time, but you choose to make your own path with his advice instead of worshiping him? Or do you look at the word "Christ" as a form of consciousness (for lack of a better word) instead of a person?. I am not too familiar with the sub categories of Christianity, do all Catholics tend to put less importance on 'hell' and focus on a more positive, less aggressive message or did you grow up in a unique background where open mindedness to new ideas was encouraged?

I like to think that 'Jesus' was trying to make us like him, instead of worshiping him. Any man of god/love must feel silly if people are worshiping him, imo. We are children of god, what does that make us when we grow up? Dont need to answer that one. I think the second coming of Christ is the second coming of Christ consciousness. A consciousness that will be shared by many people, after an apocalyptic event of course lol. I also think a bearded white man/men of god will come around this time too. Many cultures around the world speak of a bearded white man saving them in some way or form, and those cultures were not supposed to of had contact with any white people at the time. I like the Hopi prophecy the best, those Native Americans predicted events with alarming accuracy. Im pretty sure only one of the nine prophecies is left to be fulfilled and thats the coming of Pahana (Great white brother), the end of this world and the beginning of the next.

...lol - there were some real catholics where I'm from. Wow. They pushed hell. I think I was lucky.

...Jesus embodied the Christ. The 'light body'. That was the ascension, so far as I know. It's funny that people nowadays see the pattern of older religions and say that it's all bs. That was what I meant when I said 'all religious avatars', each one of the 'comparable' people did a different thing for the consciousness of the people (in their respective cultures). The Hopi were in tune with the mother (are in tune?). They were able to listen with a discernment that required no razor. They listened with their bodies, their hearts and their minds. In our current day, we'd call someone who is able to do that 'whole'. The thing with the natives is that they were whole, likely still are (thinking root culture here), and will still be after all the great upheavals.

^ imo, all of it

 

[NBPaintballer]

Agreed, but that's hardly universal. You implied that the immorality of lying was established at the level of basic social conduct. One 19th-century armchair philosopher does not make for a moral imperative (categorical or otherwise ) cn

Immanual Kant ?

 

[Mister Sister]

And, what does that even mean? Better person..

I feel like most people don't bother with that type of shit, they get theirs, that's all that matters.

Is striving to become a better person even worth it if everyone else doesn't give a shit?

What does it accomplish? Does it simply give us the knowledge of being able to live with ourselves? Why does that matter?


In a weird sense, sometimes I feel like since other people don't care for me or anyone else, why should I care for them? It seems so prevalent, the harsh reality of existence, where people are always in it for themselves, and being someone who cares for other people or the majority of peoples well being is useless. Why do it? Why bother? Why not just work to make your own life worth living, worth something that makes you wake up every day and not kill yourself?

Why do people even bother with creating things like vaccines or smart cars to eliminate pollution if half the people these things are meant for don't believe they work, and in fact believe they create some type of autism or brain damage or don't believe in global warming? Why care about these fucks? Why care about what they think? Why try to help them? Where's the motivation, the acknowledgement, the "thank you for progressing our world"?

Nowhere. So why fucking bother?

Congrats on your journey Pada, I enjoy reading about your thoughts - thank you for sharing.

Please consider yourself as connected to all other people, negative self-serving ones included. They are a part of yourself, and you of theirs. The reason to give a fuck is to lead by positive example of the power of unconditional love. If you learn to love your enemy, you learn to love your self and vice versa.

The power of a healed/healing human psyche has effects that reach far beyond the visible spectrum of light. You are connected to all others in countless ways. Giving a fuck breeds giving a fuck. Hang around in shit long enough you start to smell like it. So hang out in compassion for a bit, see how it fits ya.

Much respect,

MS

 

[Chief Walkin Eagle]

Congrats on your journey Pada, I enjoy reading about your thoughts - thank you for sharing.

Please consider yourself as connected to all other people, negative self-serving ones included. They are a part of yourself, and you of theirs. The reason to give a fuck is to lead by positive example of the power of unconditional love. If you learn to love your enemy, you learn to love your self and vice versa.

The power of a healed/healing human psyche has effects that reach far beyond the visible spectrum of light. You are connected to all others in countless ways. Giving a fuck breeds giving a fuck. Hang around in shit long enough you start to smell like it. So hang out in compassion for a bit, see how it fits ya.

Much respect,

MS

Great words Sir/Miss!

I was surprised that you swore. Since you are so god damn positive all the time lol.

 

[Zaehet Strife]

William James describes a man who got the experience from laughing-gas; whenever he was under its influence, he knew the secret of the universe, but when he came to, he had forgotten it. At last, with immense effort, he wrote down the secret before the vision had faded. When completely recovered, he rushed to see what he had written. It was: "A smell of petroleum prevails throughout."


The wise man will be as happy as circumstances permit, and if he finds the contemplation of the universe painful beyond a point, he will contemplate something else instead.

 

[thagooroo]

I care about you and we never met I choose to be a good person because love gives you options in life when people care about you trust you they help have you and choose you over others they don't care for have you ever went out of your way for someone you didn't care about and expect no thanks of any kind in return. Since I love myself I want love and $ in life the more nice people that are well off and have there needs met the more mine will since we won't be fighting over a slice of pie that is ever expanding try to open yourself up to people and act with love and compassion and I promise you will see and experience a different world

And, what does that even mean? Better person..

I feel like most people don't bother with that type of shit, they get theirs, that's all that matters.

Is striving to become a better person even worth it if everyone else doesn't give a shit?

What does it accomplish? Does it simply give us the knowledge of being able to live with ourselves? Why does that matter?


In a weird sense, sometimes I feel like since other people don't care for me or anyone else, why should I care for them? It seems so prevalent, the harsh reality of existence, where people are always in it for themselves, and being someone who cares for other people or the majority of peoples well being is useless. Why do it? Why bother? Why not just work to make your own life worth living, worth something that makes you wake up every day and not kill yourself?

Why do people even bother with creating things like vaccines or smart cars to eliminate pollution if half the people these things are meant for don't believe they work, and in fact believe they create some type of autism or brain damage or don't believe in global warming? Why care about these fucks? Why care about what they think? Why try to help them? Where's the motivation, the acknowledgement, the "thank you for progressing our world"?

Nowhere. So why fucking bother?

 

[Padawanbater2]

I care about you and we never met I choose to be a good person because love gives you options in life when people care about you trust you they help have you and choose you over others they don't care for have you ever went out of your way for someone you didn't care about and expect no thanks of any kind in return. Since I love myself I want love and $ in life the more nice people that are well off and have there needs met the more mine will since we won't be fighting over a slice of pie that is ever expanding try to open yourself up to people and act with love and compassion and I promise you will see and experience a different world

The more I live, the more I say 'fuck this'. It really is 'in it for yourself', if you don't, I believe, you're either naive, inexperienced, or simply ignorant. Life is all about #1, first and foremost.

Anytime I have ever took this advice and 'opened myself up to people', they have taken advantage of it and fucked me over. I used to think people were inherently good, but as I grow older, the society we've built has shown me they're not, they'll fuck you over at any given chance that they think will benefit them and trusting them not to is a huge mistake on your part. The only outcome to trusting someone today is disappointment.