new to organic, some questions

QuentinQuark

Well-Known Member
Hola all,

After wrestling with the idea for several years, I have decided to give organics a try. Coming from chemical/salt hydro and I just can't bear the thought of continuing to use that horrible stuff, knowing where it comes from and where it ends up. Plus from what I read organic buds can't be beat for quality (when done right) and I'm just growing for myself. My goal is primarily simplicity and low maintenance, I'm not overly concerned with quantity although the more the better of course :)

Since making this decision, I have been reading everything I can get my hands on about soil mixes. I understand that with organics, it's all about the microbial environment of the soil, i.e. tiny critters eat raw nutrients and minerals, and their waste and carcasses are then consumed by slightly larger critters, etc. Bacteria, fungi, sounds like a party.

I would like to prepare a mix that will require nothing but water for the duration of the grow. The only mix I can find that makes this claim is Subcool's Super Soil. This mix has instructions to water it and let it "cook" somewhere warmish for 30-60 days. I gather this would be the "tiny critters eat raw nutrients and minerals" phase I mentioned above. So my first question is, where do these first wave of critters come from? From the thread, the "cooking" is essentially aerobic composting, i.e. fermentation/decomposition by aerobic bacteria. So do I have to use a starter culture of some sort? When I make lacto-fermented veggies, I use whey as a starter, but that process is anaerobic and involved lactic-acid-producing bacteria, quite different I'm sure. Even making yogurt requires some existing yogurt for the starter culture.. So how do I get things started with a soil mix that needs cookin'?

Secondly, I can't find a decent organic soil mix nearby, I spent the weekend touring multiple hydro shops (well, two actually, there's not that many where I am) and nurseries (even worse selection), no luck with Roots or Biobizz or Fox Farm or Harvest Moon or ... well you get the point. So what I was thinking was this, since the good organic soil blends have basically the same stuff as the Super Soil, how about if I make a batch of SS using coco coir instead of soil, and just use a lighter mix for the top of the container? Say 25% concentrate in the top, 50% concentrate in the middle, 100% in the bottom like Sub says? Seems like it should work well, but I thought I would get some expert opinions first. The rest of the stuff I'm not having trouble sourcing (bone meal, blood meal, fish bone meal, guano, lime, etc).

And lastly, I would like to use sub-irrigation for the pots. For those of you unfamiliar, sub-irrigation is where the bottom of your container acts as a water reservoir and a small portion of your medium is submerged (kind of like a hempy bucket) and the moisture wicks up through the medium. The reservoir is filled from the top of the container by a tube or pipe or something that transports the water down past the medium into the reservoir (unlike a hempy bucket which is top watered). Very low maintenance, very water efficient, no soil compaction from top watering, and the capillary action always keep the perfect level of soil moisture. Would this work for cannabis, and would it work for a coco-based Super Soil, in layers as discussed above?

Thank you very much for reading, I welcome your thoughts.
 

hydrosoil78

Active Member
I use premium organic soil (greenall) mixed with perlite. you could mix coco with perlite I guess but I try to make it less than 50 percent perlite so far. maybe subcool uses 100 percent soil which is fine but a lot of people seem to get good results with perlite mixed in different ratios. The soil or coco makes up the organic matter but you could try with pre bagged compost too. I think the organic matter gives it the best taste, the dirt smells strong when you open the bag, so its been about 50/50 soil , perlite for me -the more porous medium with regular watering (fish emulsion and dyna gro) is giving me fat little plants after a month or 2 of veg.
 

NickNasty

Well-Known Member
Im not sure how the sub irrigation would work with the type of grow you were planning to do. Usually having your soil mix constantly wet will have bad results. I use soil that I amend and recycle and reuse it and I only water doing my grow.
Here is what I add to my soil after each grow then I let it sit for 3 weeks
Per 25-30 gallons of soil
1 cup each of
Soft Rock Phosphate
Green Sand
Diatomaceous Earth
Alfalfa Meal
Kelp Meal
Blood Meal
Bone Meal
Azomite
Dolomite Lime
Mexican Bat Guano for veg soil
Indonesian Bat Guano for flower soil
Couple handfuls of EWC
Couple handfuls of Humus
Half a bag of good compost
Mix Well

I up pot as needed and up pot a week before flower in my flower soil. I use a basic compost tea every time I transplant and use compost tea w/ferts if I see any deficiencies which is rarely. Other than that all I do is water.

You should be able to make or find a halfway decent soil from any hydro shop or home depot etc. It doesnt have to be Fox Farm etc. to work you will be adding most of what you need anyway. Also the good bacteria/fungus is already in the soil, compost, and EWC. All we are doing is adding food and environment to boost their population.
Here is a good thread you should read that just recently started we talk about our soil mixes, lacto and a lot of other stuff you are asking about.
https://www.rollitup.org/michigan-patients/583341-so-who-here-growing-true.html
 

QuentinQuark

Well-Known Member
I use premium organic soil (greenall) mixed with perlite. you could mix coco with perlite I guess but I try to make it less than 50 percent perlite so far. maybe subcool uses 100 percent soil which is fine but a lot of people seem to get good results with perlite mixed in different ratios. The soil or coco makes up the organic matter but you could try with pre bagged compost too. I think the organic matter gives it the best taste, the dirt smells strong when you open the bag, so its been about 50/50 soil , perlite for me -the more porous medium with regular watering (fish emulsion and dyna gro) is giving me fat little plants after a month or 2 of veg.
Yes I have also heard that around 1/3 perlite great for a container mix. Thank you.
 

QuentinQuark

Well-Known Member
Thanks for referring me to that thread NN, and thanks for the pointer to LC's soilless mix farmerjoe420, much appreciated!


The direction I'm heading is a soilless mix based on cocopeat (in Canada I would have to use Milleniumsoils Coir or BeatsPeat), so something like LC's #1, but with some influence from Subcool's super soil.

I have an email in to Plantsbest asking them whether BeatsPeat is washed and composted or not, the Milleniumsoils Coir is both washed and composted - nice.

Some questions:
1. Does a soilless mix need to "cook", like supersoil needs to?
2. Since coir has a more neutral ph, how do I know how much lime to add?
3. What is the right lime to use? I have seen agricultural lime, horticultural lime, dolomitic lime, and calcitic lime. The guy at the hydro store said the calcitic is the right one to use, but around here the guys at the hydro store don't know a bloody thing and will talk out of their ass rather than admit that they don't have a clue.
4. Does one layer their soilless mix, like supersoil is layered?
 

NickNasty

Well-Known Member
1. I would let it cook < what you are doing is letting the microbes break down some of those nutrients so when you put a plant in it has readily available nutrients.
2. It won't hurt to add the lime and will keep you soil/soilless in the proper ph range. I would use dolomitic or calcitic lime. The difference is that dolomite lime is magnesium/calcium at 50/50 and calcitic lime is just calcium.
4. I don't like to layer my soil I dont want hot spots.
5. From the other thread - The bacteria is in a lot of the stuff you are putting in your soil like compost or earthworm castings so that is what is inoculating your soil. You can also make a compost tea to inoculate with.
 

QuentinQuark

Well-Known Member
Regarding coco coir, from what I gather the highest quality stuff will be washed and aged/composted. The reason for the washing is to get rid of the salts. Even grown inland, coconut trees love their salt water, and of course that spells death for our plants. And the reason for the aging is that there is a substantial loss of volume as the product ages, so you want pre-aged, kinda like you want to buy pre-shrunk cotton shirts :)

So I emailed PlantBest, makers of "BeatsPeat", see the conversation below. Long story short, I won't be buying their coir.

============================================================

Hi xxx,

Our coconuts are grown and processed inland, away from any salt water.
We do, however, still have a rinsing stage to ensure little to no sodium content.
Composting is not part of our production process.
If you need further info, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Thanks,

xxx -- Sales Coordinator
PlantBest, Inc.
3762 Fourteenth Avenue, Suite 200
Markham, Ontario L3R 0G7
Tel &#8211; 905-470-0724, Ext. 000
Fax &#8211; 905-470-8027
[email protected]
www.plantbest.com

From: xxx
Sent: November 19, 2012 7:59 PM
To: xxx@plantbest.com
Subject: question about BeatsPeat





Hello, can you tell me if this coir is washed and composted. Thanks.
 

QuentinQuark

Well-Known Member
Another interesting tidbit I found out about coir. I talked to these guys, and they said that they have two kinds of washed coir. One is washed with plain water, to get rid of the ocean salt. But their premium stuff is also washed with Potassium Nitrate, to leach every last bit of salt out, apparently in coir washed with water will still have an EC of around 1000 MS/m, and the PN washed stuff has an EC of around 500MS/m. The dude said if you leave plain washed stuff sitting in water long enough the water will turn brown because it's just really hard to get every last bit out. But the PN wash is pricey that's why noone does it.

The question is - is this washing out sodium (bad stuff) or is it washing out something that we actually want in there?
 

QuentinQuark

Well-Known Member
Alright, so I'm thinking something like this for my organic soil-less mix:

2 parts coco coir
2 parts EWC
1 part perlite
1 part biochar

I've got some coir on the way, the Potassium Nitrate washed stuff I mentioned above.

EWC will be easy enough to find, but I've got calls/emails in to a few manufacturers to ask whether or not their stuff is sprayed or sterilized in any way.

Perlite, no problemo.

Bio, gotta hunt around. So far the only manufacturer I could find in Canada was these guys and they're not exactly retailers. I emailed them and asked for a sample. I definitely don't have the facilities to make my own, and I really don't feel like buying a bag of charcoal and smashing it with a hammer all day, so here's hopin'.

Now I gotta think about nutrients. I'm going for a "water only" mix.

2010 Super Soil:
8 large bags of high quality organic potting soil with coco and Mycorrhizae
25-50 lbs. of organic worm castings
5 lbs. of Blood meal 12-0-0
5 lbs. Bat guano 0-5-0
5 lbs. Fish Bone Meal 3-16-0
¾ cup Epsom salt
1 cup Sweet lime (Dolomite)
½ cup Azomite ( Trace element)
2 Tbs. powdered Humic acid
*** If using an RO system add in 1/2 cup powdered Cal/mag

LC's Recipe #1:
1 tablespoon Blood meal per gallon or 1/2 cup per cubic foot of soil mix
2 tablespoons Bone meal per gallon or 1 cup per cubic foot of soil mix
1-tablespoon kelp meal per gallon or 1/2 cup per cubic foot of soil mix
or Maxicrop 1-0-4 powdered kelp extract as directed
(OPTIONAL) 1 tablespoon per gallon or 1/2 cup per cubic foot of Jersey Greensand to supplement the K (potasium) in the Kelp Meal and seaweed extract.


So right off the bat: any idea why LC's recipe has a 2:1 ratio of bone meal to blood meal?
 

NickNasty

Well-Known Member
here are my thoughts 1 part biochar --- this is to much in my opinion if you watch the videos I put up they only say to use only 8-10% and you have to activate it otherwise it will leach your soil. So I would mix it 50/50 with compost or let it sit in compost tea while its brewing So right off the bat: any idea why LC's recipe has a 2:1 ratio of bone meal to blood meal? My guess would be that the bone meal has a lot of calcium so it is being used as a calcium supplement too.
 

QuentinQuark

Well-Known Member
Thanks NN. How would mixing the charcoal 50/50 with compost, or letting it sit in compost tea during brewing, activate the charcoal? Isn't charcoal activated by treating it with a strong acid?

Another diff between Sub's and LC's, LC's has kelp meal or kelp extract. This stuff is pricey - is it necessary? Sub's doesn't use it. And Sub's has guano, LC's doesn't. Is LC's just substituting kelp for guano? I can't see how, their nutrient profiles are very different. How is LC getting away without guano?
 

QuentinQuark

Well-Known Member
Thanks NN. How would mixing the charcoal 50/50 with compost, or letting it sit in compost tea during brewing, activate the charcoal? Isn't charcoal activated by treating it with a strong acid?

Another diff between Sub's and LC's, LC's has kelp meal or kelp extract. This stuff is pricey - is it necessary? Sub's doesn't use it. And Sub's has guano, LC's doesn't. Is LC's just substituting kelp for guano? I can't see how, their nutrient profiles are very different. How is LC getting away without guano?

I think I figured this out. The guano in Sub's mix adds P, the 2:1 ratio of bone to blood in LC's adds P. It all adds up.
 

QuentinQuark

Well-Known Member
Alright, first revision:

3 parts coco coir
3 parts EWC
2 parts perlite
1 part charcoal


For nutes:

1. I'm gonna go 1:1 blood:bone, and 1 guano (Sub's way) instead of 1:2 blood:bone.
2. Dolomite lime (cal+mag). I notice Sub adds epsom salts for extra Mg. Any thoughts on this?
3. Humic acids. Sub's uses humic acids, LC's gets Humic acids from Liquid Karma. However, from one of the LC threads, LK is optional...
3. Something for trace elements. Sub uses azomite, can't get it around here. Could probably find it online, but if anyone can suggest some alternatives let's hear 'em. What's the trace element source in LC's?
4. Greensand. No idea what this stuff is. LC's lists it as optional. Sub's has it in the base soil he uses (Roots). It's kinda pricey.
5. Mycorrhizae. I have Earth Juice Rooter's Mycorrhize.
6. Bacterial innoculant. Still not sure if I should brew my own or use a store-bought powder. Below is my conversation with Earth Juice, for those that are interested in a comparison of their two. The other option is Espoma, but that's bacteria and myco, and I already have the myco. Now if I were to brew my own, what would I brew and how?

Question: is the lime in there for pH, or as a calcium (or cal/mag) supplement?

Here's the email conversation with Earth Juice. Read from the bottom up.

=======================

Hydro-Organics Info Desk <[email protected]> Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 2:50 PM
To: xxx <[email protected]>
To save $'s
CocoCoir naturally contains strains of Trichoderma, although at this moment it escapes me
exactly what strains ? I apologize.
Trichoderma is one of the best ways to help protect roots which is generally useful when
gardening in containers especially in humid environments.
Now there is no real reason you can't cannot apply both Bio-Zeus & Bio-Righteous other than extra cost. For
your needs & to save you probably will be OK with using just the Bio-Righteous.
For hydroponics & hand feeding "EJ" Sugar Peak line of nutrients are not only compatible with: BZ.BR.RM but
also contain elements that will both encourage the development and maintain thriving beneficial bios colonies.

On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 11:26 AM, xxx <[email protected]> wrote:
The only Earth Juice product I have at the moment is Rooter's
Mycorrhizae, I was going to combine that with BioZeus or BioRighteous. Purchased from Bustan Hydroponics
in Toronto.
Now the dilemma. This will be a composted, soil-less mix based on cocopeat. It will be used for potting in
containers. So the problem is, you said "For container gardening, if we were to choose one, we would
apply Bio-Zeus" but you also said "If you will be composting CocoCoir and/or Peat and you want to use only a
single microbe (inoculate) the suggestion would be: Bio-Rigtheous". I'm doing both simultaneously, and
combining with your Rooter's Myco.
Suggestions?
xxx.

On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 2:19 PM, Hydro-Organics Info Desk <[email protected]> wrote:
Hello
Please forward the Business Name, City & State of where you purchase your "Earth Juice" products. The
information will be kept confidential & only for internal use.
The two separate blends were produced by demand:
Bio-Zeus is very popular with commercial nursery container plant stock producers
primary due to the fungi Trichoderma harzianum & Trichoderma viride it contains.
Some home gardeners prefer not to use the Trichoderma's, for the most part based on
misinformation concerning using Trichoderma & Mycorrhizae together.
The correct data points in the direction that they occur in nature together. are suited and will harmonize and
work fine together. For container gardening, if we were to choose one, we would apply Bio-Zeus
Bio-Righteous Contains two microbes that are becoming very popular with many home non-commercial
gardeners including those that prefer not to apply Trichoderma: Azospirillum brasilense, Lactobacillus
acidophilus
If you will be composting CocoCoir and/or Peat and you want to use only a single microbe
(inoculate) the suggestion would be: Bio-Rigtheous.
Bio-Zeus Contains the following Non-Plant Food Active Ingredients:
1.Azotobacter chroococcum
2. Azotobacter vinelandii
3. Azospirillum lipoferum
4. Bacillus coagulans
5. Bacillus megaterium
6. Bacillus subtilis
7. Pseudomonas fluorescens
8. Rhizobium japonicum
9. Trichoderma harzianum
10. Trichoderma v iride.
Bio-Righteous Contains the following Active Ingredients:
1. Azotobacter chroococcum
2. Azospirillum lipoferu
3. Azospirillum brasilense
4. Azotobacter vinelandii
5. Bacillus laterosprorus
6. Bacillus licheniforms
7. Bacillus coagulans
8. Bacillus megaterium
9. Bacillus pumilis
10. Bacillus subtilis
11. Lactobacillus acidophilus
12. Pseudomonas fluorescens
13. Rhizobium japonicum.
Thank you

On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 10:17 AM, xxx <[email protected]> wrote:
Hello,
Can you explain to me the difference between these two products? I see that each contains strains that
the other doesn't. When would one use BZ over BR and vice-versa?
I am going to be assembling an organic soil-less mix and letting it compost aerobically for a month or so.
Thanks,
xxx.
 

NickNasty

Well-Known Member
calcitic lime is calcium only ,dolomite is cal/mag. Green Sand is a trace elements source also look into Gaia Green Glacial Rock Dust As far as Bacterial innoculant that is up to you Google Compost Tea recipe Also Compost tea brewer < there are many different versions of compost tea but they basically come down to Molasses < food for bacteria, liquid Kelp or kelp meal < food for bacteria and fungi, Compost < Bacteria and fungi innoculant or you can add your store bought earth juice innoculant. You can add your innoculant straight to the soil and you will do fine the tea just boosts the populations a ton. I think you are over thinking things....
 

QuentinQuark

Well-Known Member
calcitic lime is calcium only ,dolomite is cal/mag. Green Sand is a trace elements source also look into Gaia Green Glacial Rock Dust As far as Bacterial innoculant that is up to you Google Compost Tea recipe Also Compost tea brewer < there are many different versions of compost tea but they basically come down to Molasses < food for bacteria, liquid Kelp or kelp meal < food for bacteria and fungi, Compost < Bacteria and fungi innoculant or you can add your store bought earth juice innoculant. You can add your innoculant straight to the soil and you will do fine the tea just boosts the populations a ton. I think you are over thinking things....
I always overthink - one of the reasons I medicate with weed. Smokes my brain down a notch.
 

QuentinQuark

Well-Known Member
So my innoculant will be home-brewed LactoB, ACT (I'm gonna make this with a magnetic stirrer, but I don't have any compost), and BTI dunks.
 

QuentinQuark

Well-Known Member
Alrighty I think I've found a Canadian source for Neptune's Harvest products, will try and get crab meal and kelp meal from them.

From local hydro shop, will be picking up perlite, greensand, glacial rock dust, and bat guano (10kg on clearance for $80).

From big box retailer, 7-7-0 bone+blood meal and BTI dunks.

From local plant nursery, dolomitic lime. And from a different local plant nursery, wiggle worm EWC.

And I'm gonna grab some dried comfrey/nettle/yarrow and whatever else goes into the QR Compost Activator, that stuff is easy to get around here and also online. A little pricey but you don't need much.

And the coir is coming from cocopeat.ca.

Fuck me I'm excited.

Gonna get started brewin' me some LactoB.
 

NickNasty

Well-Known Member
Sounds like you got a good set of amendments when you go to the nurseries ask them if they know a good place to get local compost. Around here a lot of them make/sell there own but they should know where to get some either way.
 
Top