Fan Leafs. Blockers of Light Or Energy Producers???

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PJ Diaz

PJ Diaz

Well-Known Member
More wrong assumptions.

Uncle Ben said:
I doubt if any one owns a light meter and even if you say you do, it probably only registers to 5K f.c., which is useless, as HID's register more f.c. than the sun.

UB
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colonuggs said:
Bible... Dont need one.... I go off personal experience and results :)

We tried the 600 watt MH and didnt like um... we would have to stage um 1 every 3x3 to get to desired results ...

A 15 x15 room hooked up with 600s... takes 25 @ 3x3 15,000 watts or 9 -1000s @ 5x5 9000 watts.... hmmm

My meter tells me we got around 75- 7600 FC about 6 inches under the 1000 watt bulb



and 16-1700 FC off the floor directly under the bulb... 42 inches away

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I have the same meter myself. Those readings look great to me!
 
N

NaturalBornCarny

Member
WOW is there a lot of bitching being done here. I like threads that are worded just to start arguments lol. Fan leaves both block light and produce sugars.
 
stumpjumper

stumpjumper

Well-Known Member
I'm sure Uncle B was knowledgeable in his time... Unfortunately time has gotten away from him and new techniques seem like a foreign language to him. You can't teach an old dog new tricks... When they are too fucking stubborn to even consider it anyways.

What does it really matter, in the end it comes down to the grower being happy with his results. In my case I have a few things to be held accountable for; yield, potency and quality. These standards have to be met not for my needs, but my patients needs.

I don't get any complaints and nobody goes without. On top of that they gladly give me $250 an oz to compensate me for my efforts.
 
Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
I know hood design and light dynamics, studied it to death which included consorting with lighting techs and I'm here to reiterate that anyone thinking you're getting good efficiency with the pole end of a HID pointing down into the canopy is ignorant when it comes to the law of physics and lamp dynamics. Add to that the lossiness that occurs from the light having to travel a distance, indirectly from the tube to a reflecting surface (which also introduces light lossiness) and you have the perfect recipe for pissin' off your money and staying stupid. You might get good light distribution, but so will an incandescent bulb. Try the incan guys, you'll like that one too. ;)

UB
 
Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
stumpjumper said:
In my case I have a few things to be held accountable for; yield, potency and quality. These standards have to be met not for my needs, but my patients needs.
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I've seen some of the "patients" you speak of, and they look like they haven't taken a bath or held down a job in months. The medical marijuana ditty is a joke, nothing more than a disengenious racket to get high. The industry breeds hype, excessive profits (greed), and falsehoods.

You say you sell your pot for $250 which I think is very excessive. I sell mine to one friend only for $50/oz., just enough to pay for my time and risk. I also give it away to a few chosen friends/relatives.

UB
 
cannawizard

cannawizard

Well-Known Member
everyone just relax, this thread is not about flaming each other (but it looks like its heading in that direction), everyone is entitled to their own opinions but remember the RIU rules (i.e. NO threats-harassment-etc)..
 
Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
cannawizard said:
everyone just relax, this thread is not about flaming each other (but it looks like its heading in that direction), everyone is entitled to their own opinions but remember the RIU rules (i.e. NO threats-harassment-etc)..
Click to expand...
One thing I've learned about cannabis growing forums over the years:

1. The fate of the Western World depends on medical marijuana to "save" lives,

2. You must pH your water,

3. Advanced Shysters, hydro vendors, and seedbanks are honest people who really care,

4. Epsom salts not only cures ailing feet....but ailing plants,

5. Fan leaves are evil and just get in the way,

6. There are more physics and engineering graduates frequenting cannabis growing forums than can be found on the campus at MIT,

7. Bloom foods will increase production,

8. More trichomes and resin means more potency,

9. HPS lights have no blue spectrum and should only be used for flowering,

10. And last but not least, you can reinvent the wheel. All you need is a wrench to re-arrange the spokes.
 
stumpjumper

stumpjumper

Well-Known Member
Uncle Ben said:
I've seen some of the "patients" you speak of, and they look like they haven't taken a bath or held down a job in months. The medical marijuana ditty is a joke, nothing more than a disengenious racket to get high. The industry breeds hype, excessive profits (greed), and falsehoods.

You say you sell your pot for $250 which I think is very excessive. I sell mine to one friend only for $50/oz., just enough to pay for my time and risk. I also give it away to a few chosen friends/relatives.

UB
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I give it away too, a free oz a month. Calling cancer patients getting relief is a racket ey? Chronic pain must be though? Nausea from Chrons, is that a racket too?

I don't have much else to say to that... If I wanted to racket I'd be pulling $80-$100 a quarter all day long EASY. I don't.
 
dizzlekush

dizzlekush

Well-Known Member
Uncle Ben said:
I know hood design and light dynamics, studied it to death which included consorting with lighting techs and I'm here to reiterate that anyone thinking you're getting good efficiency with the pole end of a HID pointing down into the canopy is ignorant when it comes to the law of physics and lamp dynamics. Add to that the lossiness that occurs from the light having to travel a distance, indirectly from the tube to a reflecting surface (which also introduces light lossiness) and you have the perfect recipe for pissin' off your money and staying stupid. You might get good light distribution, but so will an incandescent bulb. Try the incan guys, you'll like that one too. ;)

UB
Click to expand...
Sorry UB, but this is incorrect, although its a pervasive & persistent belief. New advances in reflector designs adhering to the "one bounce and out" vertically oriented bulb concept have beaten every conventional horizontally oriented bulb/reflector combo tested. Real life tests using legitimate quantum meters measuring PPFD have proven that vertically oriented bulb/reflector combos have the highest efficacy in delivery of µmol/m2/s per input watt of power to date. Here's a little info on the matter:

http://www.reeis.usda.gov/web/crisprojectpages/0217900-highly-efficient-luminaires-for-supplemental-greenhouse-lighting.html
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:15oNDfa60XYJ:cycloptics.com/sites/default/files/initial_testing_results.pdf+&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiwtdOCvOMdzl9nRGQnigMToC5Kgwpp86_HUUFKDbhCMibR3tlaSgqfr8d72gNe9tK3haomjjEcE5vdgvU5YzhNfaUWc8FfzJ7RY_ssqtZIeXSV0kdwKyvilEM37t5PMttgHIvb&sig=AHIEtbRO0tXf7q-YaBSf80-dLYYcqwkt8A
cycloptics.com/sites/default/files/USU_E15_study.pdf
http://cycloptics.com/all_bright_reflector
http://www.greners.com/reflector-test.html

For example the All-Bright luminaire has an efficiency of ~1.95PPF/watt, there's not a single horizontally oriented luminaire that can match that in the world.

The logic behind it is very simple. Horizontally oriented bulbs have been considered superior since the radiation from the bulbs arc tube is emitted from the sides of the arc tube (& bulb) as opposed to radiating from the tip of the arc tube. Orienting the bulb horizontally in a reflector allows for the greatest amount of light to be emitted directly (not reflected) from the reflector. This has been the argument for horizontally orienting the bulb. The problem with horizontally oriented bulbs is only 35-45% of the bulbs light gets emitted directly, the rest has to be reflected.

With the designt of modern horizontally oriented reflectors ~50% of the light emitted from the bulb MUST BE REFLECTED MORE THAN ONCE to actually leave the reflector. Each reflective bounce decreases the energy that the photon carries, decreasing irriadiance intensity (PPF). This is where vertically oriented reflectors have their advantage. With a vertically oriented reflector NONE of the light has to be reflected more than once to be emitted form the reflector, its all 'one bounce and out' (hence the name). Although there is much less direct light being emitted from vertically oriented bulbs, overall the lighting intensity & uniformity is greater since less Photosynthetic Photon Flux is lost due to multiple reflections.

This is why a flashlights design mirrors that of a vertically oriented reflector, its more efficient. If it was more efficient to orient the bulb horizontally so more of the arc tube could have direct irradiance, then all flashlights would have their bulb facing that direction instead of the design they currently have, which mirrors that of the Luxor, All-Bright etc.

FYI i currently use horizontally oriented reflectors (Blockbusters) since there isn't a single vertically oriented reflector on the market at the moment that is worth its price. Since the advances in reflector designs are fairly novel, they're still a little overpriced for their actual value.

Nothing personal UB, you're just considered one of the trusted 'voices of reason' in the community, and id like to try to correct this false belief in the community.
 
yesum

yesum

Well-Known Member
^^ UB you been whooped by da facts! just kidding

On the matter of the leaves maybe you should be a little more open to folks that are actually getting good results from plucking, even if there is no 'hard science' to prove it.
 
Kite High

Kite High

Well-Known Member
PJ Diaz said:
Read the actual test results I posted on reflector efficiency. Can't argue with numbers.
Click to expand...
PJ Diaz said:
Read the actual test results I posted on reflector efficiency. Can't argue with numbers.
Click to expand...
where are the results located PJ? Also was the PL Lighting Deep reflectors tested? I am running 2 on movers and by far the results are quite astonishing compared to the sun 6
 
Kite High

Kite High

Well-Known Member
dizzlekush said:
Sorry UB, but this is incorrect, although its a pervasive & persistent belief. New advances in reflector designs adhering to the "one bounce and out" vertically oriented bulb concept have beaten every conventional horizontally oriented bulb/reflector combo tested. Real life tests using legitimate quantum meters measuring PPFD have proven that vertically oriented bulb/reflector combos have the highest efficacy in delivery of µmol/m2/s per input watt of power to date. Here's a little info on the matter:

http://www.reeis.usda.gov/web/crisprojectpages/0217900-highly-efficient-luminaires-for-supplemental-greenhouse-lighting.html
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:15oNDfa60XYJ:cycloptics.com/sites/default/files/initial_testing_results.pdf+&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiwtdOCvOMdzl9nRGQnigMToC5Kgwpp86_HUUFKDbhCMibR3tlaSgqfr8d72gNe9tK3haomjjEcE5vdgvU5YzhNfaUWc8FfzJ7RY_ssqtZIeXSV0kdwKyvilEM37t5PMttgHIvb&sig=AHIEtbRO0tXf7q-YaBSf80-dLYYcqwkt8A
cycloptics.com/sites/default/files/USU_E15_study.pdf
http://cycloptics.com/all_bright_reflector
http://www.greners.com/reflector-test.html

For example the All-Bright luminaire has an efficiency of ~1.95PPF/watt, there's not a single horizontally oriented luminaire that can match that in the world.

The logic behind it is very simple. Horizontally oriented bulbs have been considered superior since the radiation from the bulbs arc tube is emitted from the sides of the arc tube (& bulb) as opposed to radiating from the tip of the arc tube. Orienting the bulb horizontally in a reflector allows for the greatest amount of light to be emitted directly (not reflected) from the reflector. This has been the argument for horizontally orienting the bulb. The problem with horizontally oriented bulbs is only 35-45% of the bulbs light gets emitted directly, the rest has to be reflected.

With the designt of modern horizontally oriented reflectors ~50% of the light emitted from the bulb MUST BE REFLECTED MORE THAN ONCE to actually leave the reflector. Each reflective bounce decreases the energy that the photon carries, decreasing irriadiance intensity (PPF). This is where vertically oriented reflectors have their advantage. With a vertically oriented reflector NONE of the light has to be reflected more than once to be emitted form the reflector, its all 'one bounce and out' (hence the name). Although there is much less direct light being emitted from vertically oriented bulbs, overall the lighting intensity & uniformity is greater since less Photosynthetic Photon Flux is lost due to multiple reflections.

This is why a flashlights design mirrors that of a vertically oriented reflector, its more efficient. If it was more efficient to orient the bulb horizontally so more of the arc tube could have direct irradiance, then all flashlights would have their bulb facing that direction instead of the design they currently have, which mirrors that of the Luxor, All-Bright etc.

FYI i currently use horizontally oriented reflectors (Blockbusters) since there isn't a single vertically oriented reflector on the market at the moment that is worth its price. Since the advances in reflector designs are fairly novel, they're still a little overpriced for their actual value.

Nothing personal UB, you're just considered one of the trusted 'voices of reason' in the community, and id like to try to correct this false belief in the community.
Click to expand...
impossible for all reflected light to outperform in efficiency 40-60% direct light...the math kills their words dude...yep...one bounce and out when algebraic/geometrical math is applied...good crafty marketing though
 
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