I think flushing is a myth heres why

[giggles26]

Wow this thread is still going and people are still debating on it? When are people going to learn that whatever you wanna believe is what you are going to believe.

If you think flushing is the ultimate key to dankness then by all means flush to your hearts content. But I do know that I have done many grows and when I'm in soil I can't tell a difference between which one I flushed or didn't flush and also I have better results feeding until the last watering but hey to each their own.

 

[Ninjabowler]

This thread is still rockin because nobody has killed the bull in this bull fight. Everyones just adding thier two cents and B.S. and theres been just about zero actual science added, about weed, not tomatos, tobbacco, bananas, or oranges. So far my recap has it with no flush posting a long ass list of links to things not related to ganja at all and im pissed that i wasted all that time reading about curing when the debate is about flushing, not apple fucking trees, stupid cigars, chocolate, or egg incubators. Furthermore the poster of this data makes just as many points for flushing as not flushing...

"Pre harvest flushing is a controversial topic. Flushing is supposed to improve taste of the final bud by either giving only pure water, clearing solutions or extensive flushing for the last 7-14 days of flowering. While many growers claim a positive effect, others deny any positive influence or even suggest reduced yield and quality. ".....wow this is conclusive...nope

"Not all nutrient compounds are moveable within the plant.

1) N, P, K, Mg and S are considered mobile: they can move up and down the plant in both xylem and phloem.
Deficiency appears on old leaves first.


2) Ca, Fe, Zn, Mo, B, Cu, Mn are considered immobile: they only move up the plant in the xylem.
Deficiency appears on new leaves first.


http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu


Storage organelles:


Salts and organic metabolites can be stored in storage organelles. The most important storage organelle is the vacuole, which can contribute up to 90% of the cell volume. The majority of compounds found in the vacuole are sugars, polysaccharides, organic acids and proteins though.


http://jeb.biologists.org.pdf


Translocation:


Now that the basics are explained, we can take a look at the translocation process. It should be already clear that only mobile elements can be translocated through the phloem. Immobile elements cant be translocated and are not more available to the plant for further metabolic processes and new plant growth.


Since flushing (in theory) induces a nutrient deficiency in the rootzone, the translocation process aids in the plants survival. Translocation is transportation of assimilates through the phloem from source (a net exporter of assimilate) to sink (a net importer of assimilate). Sources are mostly mature fan leaves and sinks are mostly apical meristems, lateral meristem, fruit, seed and developing leaves etc. "....so what i take off this is that NPK are all mobile and can move all over the plant, up down,side to side, in out, round and round. These are the MAIN ingredients in our fertilizer and the ones wed like to remove right? Right? Also, flushing (in theory) induces blabla five lines above....this isnt a theory. No nutes means deficiency, fact, thats an easy one, then the plant starts shuffleing its stored nutes around, up down, in OUT, round and round.
Then it adds that vacuoles store salts, translocation is possible, bla bla, some trace elements are immoble, but again the main elements are. This is the only real evidence in this whole pile of crap and it doesnt even make a difinitive point, the rest is about, drowning plants, drying, curing, chocolate and fermenting apples.....who cares..post this data in the farm report.

Then flush arguement kinda sounds like its writen by somone selling flushing solution but has some good points and mentions a key selling word..SAFETY. This word sells anything. Mention that to a pregnant woman and shell buy whatevers infront of her regardless of cost. This thread is about flushing or not flushing plants, started by someone who did a short flush instead of a longer flush. Everyone thats checking this thread wants to learn about flushing but theres no one posting RELEVENT facts. Just a bunch of reeeeeetards posting"I always flush the toilet.....absolute genius!! So what you mean is you have nothing important to add, no facts to mention, and you think if the same joke gets told a million times i keeps getting funnier. I hope that this pisses some people off on this thread so maybe we can get some real info up. Im a noob and i can see right through this smoke show. Post some real data and stop telling me about one time in band camp(american pie)when you took a dump and flushed or didnt. Turds. Lol

 

[aknight3]

there is plenty of science in this thread if people would take the time to read it thoroughly, me and greatwhitenorth both posted a very very good scientific article on this very thread, best of luck to the OP

 

[giggles26]

there is plenty of science in this thread if people would take the time to read it thoroughly, me and greatwhitenorth both posted a very very good scientific article on this very thread, best of luck to the OP

A lot of people read between the lines and see what they want to see, they don't want to hear anything that they don't agree with but the thing is I am the complete opposite of that. If you show me some real proof behind your reasoning's and it's better then the way I do it by all means I will change my ways but people just spewing bullshit out of there mouths trying to pretend that they know it all just doesn't prove to me enough that I need to change my ways that have worked for many years.

 

[Ninjabowler]

there is plenty of science in this thread if people would take the time to read it thoroughly, me and greatwhitenorth both posted a very very good scientific article on this very thread, best of luck to the OP

Ok im going to read it..again...you may be right, maybe i missed the part where it says "flushing makes no difference in the final product, it pulls out no harmfull chemicals used by inorganic growers, and does more harm than good" But like i said, ive got some great info about apple trees, chocolate, drying, curing, drying, curing, and egg incubators. Going to re read and post again later, maybe ill change my mind, maybe ill waste my time, i guess only time will tell.

 

[Ninjabowler]

Ya ok read over it again. Thanks for wasting my time by leaving this garbage up. Its all about drying and curing. The only flushing information covered, to me anyway, supports flushing. None of the posters are going to change their ways because their the coolest guy at Shananagans, thats like being the smartest guy with down syndrome..(waiting)..Id just like to see them show some real evidence why they do what they do.Heres another quote from it for ya....

"The grower should react in an educated way to the plant needs. Excessive, deficient or unbalanced levels should be avoided regardless the nutrient source. Nutrient levels should be gradually adjusted to the lesser needs in later flowering. Stress factors should be limited as far as possible. If that is accomplished throughout the entire life cycle, there shouldn’t be any excessive nutrient compounds in the plants tissue. It doesn’t sound likely to the author that you can correct growing errors (significant lower mobile nutrient compound levels) with preharvest flushing."

..so nutrient levels should be gradually adjusted to the lesser needs later in flowering. This is kinda, pretty much, EXACTLY what a flush solution does right. Contain a small amount of food to keep the plant healthy untill the end. Thats what it does. Fact.
..it doesn't sound likely to the author that you can correct growing errors (significant lower mobile nutrient compound levels)...thats not even what flushings used for, you dont want to correct lower mobile nutrient compound levels, you want to correct high nutrient compound levels because you over fertilized didnt you? Ya you did. If your going to base your opinion on facts for curing then go post on a curing thread or put some flushing data on the table. You gonna let some stupid noob make you look bad? Maybe this will get a response.

p.s. im the stupid noob..i just want a straight answer, sorry for the jab.

 

[1blazeking]

chuck i gave up on this last night, if people think thats how plant botany and biology works then i dont really feel the need or want to even converse with these people on a civilized level, if you think 'heavy metals' can get into your weed, go fucking read a BOTANY BOOK, peace

"Plants can take up heavy metals by their roots, or even via their stems and leaves, and accumulate them in their organs. Plants take up elements selectively. Accumulation and distribution of heavy metals in the plant depends on the plant species, element species, chemical and bioavailiability, redox, pH, cation exchange capacity, dissolved oxygen, temperature and secretion of roots. Plants are employed in the decontamination of heavy metals from polluted water and have demonstrated high performances in treating mineral tailing water and industrial effluents. The purification capacity of heavy metals by plants are affected by several factors, such as the concentration of the heavy metals, species of elements, plant species, exposure duration, temperature and pH."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14535650

 

[Ninjabowler]

"Plants can take up heavy metals by their roots, or even via their stems and leaves, and accumulate them in their organs. Plants take up elements selectively. Accumulation and distribution of heavy metals in the plant depends on the plant species, element species, chemical and bioavailiability, redox, pH, cation exchange capacity, dissolved oxygen, temperature and secretion of roots. Plants are employed in the decontamination of heavy metals from polluted water and have demonstrated high performances in treating mineral tailing water and industrial effluents. The purification capacity of heavy metals by plants are affected by several factors, such as the concentration of the heavy metals, species of elements, plant species, exposure duration, temperature and pH."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14535650

Ahh yes,
science 1. Blablabla 0
if you have somthing provable to add, please enlighten us. Well put by the way blaze king.

 

[SwagstaffBud]

Well I just waded through all the bullshit fighting to try and learn something from this thread, you guys would probably teach/learn more without fighting all the damn time. That being said, I probably won't be flushing anymore plants.

 

[Shaggn]

Sorry, Didn't really want to get involved in this rant but seen something funny earlier in the thread. Chemical nutes need to be flushed because they are chemicals and organics doesn't because it is organic. Hmmm... Ok well lets start off with this. Where do chemicals come from?? Hope those that understand got the message lol.

Anyways, for those that didn't. Everything comes from an organic source, one way or another. Peace!!

 

[Ninjabowler]

Sorry, Didn't really want to get involved in this rant but seen something funny earlier in the thread. Chemical nutes need to be flushed because they are chemicals and organics doesn't because it is organic. Hmmm... Ok well lets start off with this. Where do chemicals come from?? Hope those that understand got the message lol.

Anyways, for those that didn't. Everything comes from an organic source, one way or another. Peace!!

Is mercury organic?

 

[Shaggn]

Actually it is a metal and yes it does come from an organic source, just like iron, calcium, boron, magnesium......... Thanks for coming out!!

 

[Ninjabowler]

Actually it is a metal and yes it does come from an organic source, just like iron, calcium, boron, magnesium......... Thanks for coming out!!

Slow down toyota, i was just asking. This is a flushing/not flushing thread. Do you flush? Science says that heavy metals can be absorbed into plants. I want safe smoke and good health, thats why im here. I was agreeing with you, just hoped that you had some more to add to this discussion besides stating that everything on earth came from an organic element at one time or another, even synthetic compounds made from chemical reactions. The reason i asked if it was was to point out that heavy metals are in plants, i still havent found somebody with evidence to show that they actually come out when you flush, or dont. Do you have some?

 

[Shaggn]

Sorry, Didn't mean for it to sound like an attack. Just that the argument is neverending. Trying to get people thinking outside the box and back to basic science. I was just like most and flushed for yrs, then decided one time to try a few w/o to test the outcome. I was surprised as I noticed no difference. I believe that the drying and curing process is the basis to most of the outcome. I'm sure a few other factors are there as well, just w/o any scientific backing. Your comment on heavy metals being absorbed, well something is there about that foresure. Reason I say this is I remember when there was a rise in the fresh water around me of Mercury and everyone was told to only eat so much fish per month/year. Because we accumulate some of it and it is a harder substance for our bodies to remove and can be quite damaging in higher amounts to our liver n such. You have made a good point and would have to look into it further on a scientific point of view. You now have me wondering that if a plant had mercury in it and you ingested that plant, whether it be edible, smoking etc etc. Do trace elements of that get passed on or is it locked into the plant. That being said, there is a lot of animals that eat plants. Are any succumbing to extinction based on toxicity. Damn, now i've just creeped myself out lol. Again sorry, just annoyed at repetitive arguments. Peace!!

 

[Ninjabowler]

Sorry, Didn't mean for it to sound like an attack. Just that the argument is neverending. Trying to get people thinking outside the box and back to basic science. I was just like most and flushed for yrs, then decided one time to try a few w/o to test the outcome. I was surprised as I noticed no difference. I believe that the drying and curing process is the basis to most of the outcome. I'm sure a few other factors are there as well, just w/o any scientific backing. Your comment on heavy metals being absorbed, well something is there about that foresure. Reason I say this is I remember when there was a rise in the fresh water around me of Mercury and everyone was told to only eat so much fish per month/year. Because we accumulate some of it and it is a harder substance for our bodies to remove and can be quite damaging in higher amounts to our liver n such. You have made a good point and would have to look into it further on a scientific point of view. You now have me wondering that if a plant had mercury in it and you ingested that plant, whether it be edible, smoking etc etc. Do trace elements of that get passed on or is it locked into the plant. That being said, there is a lot of animals that eat plants. Are any succumbing to extinction based on toxicity. Damn, now i've just creeped myself out lol. Again sorry, just annoyed at repetitive arguments. Peace!!

Predetory animals, birds, and fish are the most at risk for developing heavy metal buildup. Oh and humans. Top of the food chain and all...I think that there may be some truth to people saying there is no taste difference bettween their product when dirt is the grow medium. I also belive that there is some truth to people saying that a flushed product burning cleaner and producing a grey ash instead of a black one. I havent been able to get any solid leads to the truth outta this thread so i am inclined to just find my own evidence elsewhere and return to post my findings. I am leaning tward the flush side of the argument since the post about removal of harmfull chemicals, heavy metals, radioactive somthin, and other things that could make my product potentially safer for everyone smoking it. I was leaning tward the non flush side at first but i grow in water not dirt so organic is not an option for me. These guys make very convincing arguements. But just because that the way youve done it for years doesnt mean its the right way. Thats been proven thousands of times, not just with horticulture. For a long time the world was actually flat man....ya flat...riiiight.

 

[giggles26]

Holy shit is this like going to be the never ending RIU thread. Started talking about flushing or not flushing and now we are talking about predatory birds and shit.

 

[GreatwhiteNorth]

Hmmmm, you might be on to something there.

 

[Kite High]

From an administrator at Sensi Seeds

"Advanced - Flushing

A critical look at preharvest flushing

Pre harvest flushing is a controversial topic. Flushing is supposed to improve taste of the final bud by either giving only pure water, clearing solutions or extensive flushing for the last 7-14 days of flowering. While many growers claim a positive effect, others deny any positive influence or even suggest reduced yield and quality.

The theory of pre harvest flushing is to remove nutrients from the grow medium/root zone. A lack of nutrients creates a deficiency, forcing the plant to translocate and use up its internal nutrient compounds.

Nutrient fundamentals and uptake:

A good read about plant nutrition can be found here.

Until recently it was common thought that all nutrients are absorbed by plant roots as ions of mineral elements. However in newer studies more and more evidence emerged that additionally plant roots are capable of taking up complex organic molecules like amino acids directly thus bypassing the mineralization process.

The major nutrient uptake processes are:

1) Active transport mechanism into root hairs (the plant has to put energy in it, ATP driven) which is selective to some degree. This is one way the plant (being immobile) can adjust to the environment.

2) Passive transport (diffusion) through symplast to endodermis.

http://www.biol.sc.edu/courses/bio102/f99-3637.html

http://www.hort.wisc.edu/cran/Publications/2001 Proceedings/min_nutr.pdf

The claim only ‘chemical’ ferted plants need to be flushed should be taken with a grain of salt. Organic and synthetic ferted plants take up mineral ions alike, probably to a different degree though. Many influences play key roles in the taste and flavor of the final bud, like the nutrition balance and strength throughout the entire life cycle of the plant, the drying and curing process and other environmental conditions.

3) Active transport mechanism of organic molecules into root hairs via endocytosis.

http://acd.ucar.edu/~eholland/encyc6.html

Here is a simplified overview of nutrient functions:

Nitrogen is needed to build chlorophyll, amino acids, and proteins. Phosphorus is necessary for photosynthesis and other growth processes. Potassium is utilized to form sugar and starch and to activate enzymes. Magnesium also plays a role in activating enzymes and is part of chlorophyll. Calcium is used during cell growth and division and is part of the cell wall. Sulfur is part of amino acids and proteins.

Plants also require trace elements, which include boron, chlorine, copper, iron, manganese, sodium, zinc, molybdenum, nickel, cobalt, and silicon.

Copper, iron, and manganese are used in photosynthesis. Molybdenum, nickel, and cobalt are necessary for the movement of nitrogen in the plant. Boron is important for reproduction, while chlorine stimulates root growth and development. Sodium benefits the movement of water within the plant and zinc is neeeded for enzymes and used in auxins (organic plant hormones). Finally, silicon helps to build tough cell walls for better heat and drought tolerance.

http://www.sidwell.edu

You can get an idea from this how closely all the essential elements are involved in the many metabolic processes within the plant, often relying on each other.

Nutrient movement and mobility inside the plant:

Besides endocytosis, there are two major pathways inside the plant, the xylem and the phloem. When water and minerals are absorbed by plant roots, these substances must be transported up to the plant's stems and leaves for photosynthesis and further metabolic processes. This upward transport happens in the xylem. While the xylem is able to transport organic compounds, the phloem is much more adapted to do so.

The organic compounds thus originating in the leaves have to be moved throughout the plant, upwards and downwards, to where they are needed. This transport happens in the phloem. Compounds that are moving through the phloem are mostly:
Sugars as sugary saps, organic nitrogen compounds (amino acids and amides, ureides and legumes), hormones and proteins.

http://www.sirinet.net

Not all nutrient compounds are moveable within the plant.

1) N, P, K, Mg and S are considered mobile: they can move up and down the plant in both xylem and phloem.
Deficiency appears on old leaves first.

2) Ca, Fe, Zn, Mo, B, Cu, Mn are considered immobile: they only move up the plant in the xylem.
Deficiency appears on new leaves first.

http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu

Storage organelles:

Salts and organic metabolites can be stored in storage organelles. The most important storage organelle is the vacuole, which can contribute up to 90% of the cell volume. The majority of compounds found in the vacuole are sugars, polysaccharides, organic acids and proteins though.

http://jeb.biologists.org.pdf

Translocation:

Now that the basics are explained, we can take a look at the translocation process. It should be already clear that only mobile elements can be translocated through the phloem. Immobile elements cant be translocated and are not more available to the plant for further metabolic processes and new plant growth.

Since flushing (in theory) induces a nutrient deficiency in the rootzone, the translocation process aids in the plants survival. Translocation is transportation of assimilates through the phloem from source (a net exporter of assimilate) to sink (a net importer of assimilate). Sources are mostly mature fan leaves and sinks are mostly apical meristems, lateral meristem, fruit, seed and developing leaves etc.

You can see this by the yellowing and later dying of the mature fan leaves from the second day on after flushing started. Developing leaves, bud leaves and calyxes don’t serve as sources, they are sinks. Changes in those plant parts are due to the deficient immobile elements which start to indicate on new growth first.

Unfortunately, several metabolic processes are unable to take place anymore since other elements needed are no longer available (the immobile ones). This includes processes where nitrogen and phosphorus, which have likely the most impact on taste, are involved.

For example nitrogen: usually plants use nitrogen to form plant proteins. Enzyme systems rapidly reduce nitrate-N (NO3-) to compounds that are used to build amino-nitrogen which is the basis for amino acids. Amino acids are building blocks for proteins, most of them are plant enzymes responsible for all the chemical changes important for plant growth.

Sulfur and calcium among others have major roles in production and activating of proteins, thereby decreasing nitrate within the plant. Excess nitrate within the plant may result from unbalanced nutrition rather than an excess of nitrogen.


Summary:

Preharvest flushing puts the plant(s) under serious stress. The plant has to deal with nutrient deficiencies in a very important part of its cycle. Strong changes in the amount of dissolved substances in the root-zone stress the roots, possibly to the point of direct physical damage to them. Many immobile elements are no more available for further metabolic processes. We are loosing the fan leaves and damage will show likely on new growth as well.

The grower should react in an educated way to the plant needs. Excessive, deficient or unbalanced levels should be avoided regardless the nutrient source. Nutrient levels should be gradually adjusted to the lesser needs in later flowering. Stress factors should be limited as far as possible. If that is accomplished throughout the entire life cycle, there shouldn’t be any excessive nutrient compounds in the plants tissue. It doesn’t sound likely to the author that you can correct growing errors (significant lower mobile nutrient compound levels) with preharvest flushing.

Drying and curing (when done right) on the other hand have proved (In many studies) to have a major impact on taste and flavour, by breaking down chlorophylls and converting starches into sugars. Most attributes blamed on unflushed buds may be the result of unbalanced nutrition and/or overfert and unproper drying/curing."

PRE HARVEST FLUSHING IS A CANNA COMMUNITY MYTH PERIOD

 

[Shaggn]

I find it best to read up from Universities, Colleges and other establishments that do actual unbiased scientific study. As for toxicity due to harsh chemicals (in pretty much everything now) That requires a 50-100 year study minimum. So on that note for all the hippies that didn't flush, they should start dropping like flies now or very soon in the near future. One thing I will note also is, I personally like to take my ladies down just before the light turns on, or sun comes up. As they have used most, if not all of the reserves from the previous day. This is all in theory, I guess I will find out if I should have been flushing in about 40 more yrs. In the end, it comes down to each their own, Peace n enjoy

 

[Kite High]

I find it best to read up from Universities, Colleges and other establishments that do actual unbiased scientific study. As for toxicity due to harsh chemicals (in pretty much everything now) That requires a 50-100 year study minimum. So on that note for all the hippies that didn't flush, they should start dropping like flies now or very soon in the near future. One thing I will note also is, I personally like to take my ladies down just before the light turns on, or sun comes up. As they have used most, if not all of the reserves from the previous day. This is all in theory, I guess I will find out if I should have been flushing in about 40 more yrs. In the end, it comes down to each their own, Peace n enjoy

see above