4 Firemen shot 2 killed

[SirGreenThumb]

I'm sure hollow tips can also go right through someone if it does not hit bone or anything else to slow it down and could potentially hit and kill another person as well. But I mean the police and military should have access to these rounds nothing wrong with that just not general population.

Assault weapon in my mind is a weapon that has a large clip and high powered rounds with the ability to be fully automatic something designed to kill a lot of people easily.

I mean what good honest reason does the general population need with these items easily at there fingertips tell me that.

a hollow point expands on impact. It doesn't need to hit bone. It works the exact same way as my soft points for my .223 while hunting. And a hollow point is a defensive round and that is why it is made, while a fmj is used as a target round and doesn't expand until it hits a hard enough target to stop it.

I could go on a killing rampage with my sr9. It's a semi auto with a 17 round clip. Not to mention I have been shooting for years and I hit everything I aim at. I purposely scored a 98% on my shooting exam while obtaining my carry permit and anything within 60 yards I can take down with a handgun. Give me a rifle and nothin is safe up to 500 yards.

No one with any proper firearm knowledge is going to use a standard fmj as a defense round, since most of us law abiding carry people only kill what we set out to kill and were not going to use a bullet that is going to go right through a person to hit an innocent bystander. Hell, most cops are fucking retarded when it comes to shooting at someone. It takes a dozen to take out 1 person and they all keep shooting till their clips are empty. My opinion is cops shouldn't be allowed to have more than 3 bullets in their guns. They injure more in innocent bystanders than anyone. Trigger happy idiots is what they are.

 

[Mindmelted]

a hollow point expands on impact. It doesn't need to hit bone. It works the exact same way as my soft points for my .223 while hunting. And a hollow point is a defensive round and that is why it is made, while a fmj is used as a target round and doesn't expand until it hits a hard enough target to stop it.

I could go on a killing rampage with my sr9. It's a semi auto with a 17 round clip. Not to mention I have been shooting for years and I hit everything I aim at. I purposely scored a 98% on my shooting exam while obtaining my carry permit and anything within 60 yards I can take down with a handgun. Give me a rifle and nothin is safe up to 500 yards.

No one with any proper firearm knowledge is going to use a standard fmj as a defense round, since most of us law abiding carry people only kill what we set out to kill and were not going to use a bullet that is going to go right through a person to hit an innocent bystander. Hell, most cops are fucking retarded when it comes to shooting at someone. It takes a dozen to take out 1 person and they all keep shooting till their clips are empty. My opinion is cops shouldn't be allowed to have more than 3 bullets in their guns. They injure more in innocent bystanders than anyone. Trigger happy idiots is what they are.

RIGHT ON THE FUCKING MONEY.....


THATS WHAT HAPPENED IN NY,Over penetration....

 

[cannabineer]

All summed up all that I am trying to say is this country is full of mentally unstable people and I don't want assault rifles or anything else like armor piercing and hollow tip rounds to be available to these people.. But on the same page I support the right to own guns for protection etc. I'm not against guns I'm against citizens being able to obtain these high powered fire arms and special ammunition and body armor etc.

I mean handguns and sport rifles are deadly enough as it is in the wrong hands.. but we all know you can inflict a lot more damage a lot easier with fully automatic weapons and special ammunition.

And if you suggest that we need to out arm the police because some kind of revolution is going to happen and the government and police are going to be against the general population I think that you might be a little bit paranoid and I mean the police and military are the citizens they are our family, loved ones etc.

So if you think we need to keep a stock pile of guns and ammo etc around for the day the police/government turns on us I guess that will be the day we turn on ourselves.

Armor piercing/hollowpoint rounds are not special ammo unless in calibers beyond .50. You are perpetuating the language of gun-hater propagandists. This makes me wonder if you are interested in true debate, or simply want to opinion-bomb this forum.

I am not suggesting we need to out-arm the police because yadaa yadaa. That is a very uncharitable and pejorative rewrite, and it missed my basic point.

Never give police powers beyond those afforded the citizen. You somehow chose this to mean "arm the bejayzus out of civilians!" I am suggesting the opposite. If you don't want citizens owning AR-4 carbines, .50-caliber rifles and a variety of other weapons generally but not exclusively under the SWAT rubric ... police have no special title to them either.
I prefer not arming the police to getting into an arms race with them. The single most salutary thing we can do is pass laws limiting police access to special hardware.
Police and military are families, loved ones etc. of civilians everywhere. this does not stay their hand from awfulness. Consider Africa, Kosovo and Serbia, venues throughout Asia. The only thing keeping us from being them is luck.
Should the luck fail, Nobody who has considered the matter will be wise to trust someone in uniform. Their oath isn't to the people but to their superiors. My opinion. cn

 

[Mindmelted]

Armor piercing/hollowpoint rounds are not special ammo unless in calibers beyond .50. You are perpetuating the language of gun-hater propagandists. This makes me wonder if you are interested in true debate, or simply want to opinion-bomb this forum.

I am not suggesting we need to out-arm the police because yadaa yadaa. That is a very uncharitable and pejorative rewrite, and it missed my basic point.

Never give police powers beyond those afforded the citizen. You somehow chose this to mean "arm the bejayzus out of civilians!" I am suggesting the opposite. If you don't want citizens owning AR-4 carbines, .50-caliber rifles and a variety of other weapons generally but not exclusively under the SWAT rubric ... police have no special title to them either.
I prefer not arming the police to getting into an arms race with them. The single most salutary thing we can do is pass laws limiting police access to special hardware.
Police and military are families, loved ones etc. of civilians everywhere. this does not stay their hand from awfulness. Consider Africa, Kosovo and Serbia, venues throughout Asia. The only thing keeping us from being them is luck.
Should the luck fail, Nobody who has considered the matter will be wise to trust someone in uniform. Their oath isn't to the people but to their superiors. My opinion. cn

Right on the fucking money.....

 

[BRabiej]

a hollow point expands on impact. It doesn't need to hit bone. It works the exact same way as my soft points for my .223 while hunting. And a hollow point is a defensive round and that is why it is made, while a fmj is used as a target round and doesn't expand until it hits a hard enough target to stop it.

I could go on a killing rampage with my sr9. It's a semi auto with a 17 round clip. Not to mention I have been shooting for years and I hit everything I aim at. I purposely scored a 98% on my shooting exam while obtaining my carry permit and anything within 60 yards I can take down with a handgun. Give me a rifle and nothin is safe up to 500 yards.

No one with any proper firearm knowledge is going to use a standard fmj as a defense round, since most of us law abiding carry people only kill what we set out to kill and were not going to use a bullet that is going to go right through a person to hit an innocent bystander. Hell, most cops are fucking retarded when it comes to shooting at someone. It takes a dozen to take out 1 person and they all keep shooting till their clips are empty. My opinion is cops shouldn't be allowed to have more than 3 bullets in their guns. They injure more in innocent bystanders than anyone. Trigger happy idiots is what they are.

But I ask you this it is completely out of the question to say if someone was shot with a hollow point round and it did NOT contact any bone or any type of bulletproof vest that it could not hit another person behind the initial person?

And so the round might not be for penetrating but that was never my argument in the first place and if anything the thing expands and causes sometimes more damage then a regular round. does not sound like something the general crazy population should have.

 

[Mindmelted]

But I ask you this it is completely out of the question to say if someone was shot with a hollow point round and it did NOT contact any bone or any type of bulletproof vest that it could not hit another person behind the initial person?

And so the round might not be for penetrating but that was never my argument in the first place and if anything the thing expands and causes sometimes more damage then a regular round. does not sound like something the general crazy population should have.

Why not!!!

Do you think police are the only ones who need to shoot back at criminals?

 

[cannabineer]

But I ask you this it is completely out of the question to say if someone was shot with a hollow point round and it did NOT contact any bone or any type of bulletproof vest that it could not hit another person behind the initial person?

And so the round might not be for penetrating but that was never my argument in the first place and if anything the thing expands and causes sometimes more damage then a regular round. does not sound like something the general crazy population should have.

It's very unlikely. Hollow points (in a handgun round) and soft points (in a rifle round) are specifically designed to control expansion v. penetration. Hollow points are the safest round to the person behind the target or victim.

The other thing that hollowpoints do is improve the stopping power of a gun/cartridge combo. The main job of a fired round is: stop the opponent, quickly and positively. This is distinct from "kill" or "injure", and while any bullet will do the second two, hollowpoints are best at job 1. In a civilian weapon they enhance safety.

I read an intriguing opinion piece on the cartridge choices armies made in the wake of the Geneva Convention banning expanding/fragmented rounds. Did you know that the 9mm Parabellum cartridge was designed specifically to wound rather than kill (with its mandated FMJ bullet)? A wounded soldier uses more resources than a dead one. So if you think of the Geneva Convention as humanitarian, you now have reason to suspect the reverse. cn

 

[SirGreenThumb]

But I ask you this it is completely out of the question to say if someone was shot with a hollow point round and it did NOT contact any bone or any type of bulletproof vest that it could not hit another person behind the initial person?

And so the round might not be for penetrating but that was never my argument in the first place and if anything the thing expands and causes sometimes more damage then a regular round. does not sound like something the general crazy population should have.

You are obviously not understanding what myself and CN are trying to tell you. A hollow point round and other rounds like a soft point are designed to enter said target and stop without exiting the intended target. But to answer your question, no it's not completely out of the question. But I only find it possible if shooting through a hand or if you completely miss.

Take this for example: The other day while making sure my rifle was sighted in, I placed a sticky target on an old wooden door that is only about 1.5" thick. I had used one of my soft points during the sighting process and it didn't go all the way through the door while the fmj did.

 

[Total Head]

blah blah nra blah blah hollow point blah blah

when is someone going to mention the fact that the fireman shooter was a CONVICTED FELON who did time for killing his own grandmother, and as such was LEGALLY PROHIBITED from having guns?

another mentally ill lunatic being used to prop up irrelevant arguments. another guy with red flags pouring out his ass, convicted killer, banned from owning guns, shoots people. but yeah. let's introduce MORE gun legislation, because this is clearly a gun thing.

 

[Grandpapy]

..........snip....

I read an intriguing opinion piece on the cartridge choices armies made in the wake of the Geneva Convention banning expanding/fragmented rounds. Did you know that the 9mm Parabellum cartridge was designed specifically to wound rather than kill (with its mandated FMJ bullet)? A wounded soldier uses more resources than a dead one. So if you think of the Geneva Convention as humanitarian, you now have reason to suspect the reverse. cn

Hmm, peace on earth, goodwill towards man.

I did think of it as humanitarian, you cause me pause.

 

[Mindmelted]

blah blah nra blah blah hollow point blah blah

when is someone going to mention the fact that the fireman shooter was a CONVICTED FELON who did time for killing his own grandmother, and as such was LEGALLY PROHIBITED from having guns?

another mentally ill lunatic being used to prop up irrelevant arguments. another guy with red flags pouring out his ass, convicted killer, banned from owning guns, shoots people. but yeah. let's introduce MORE gun legislation, because this is clearly a gun thing.

SSSH!
They dont want to know the truth.

 

[BRabiej]

And that means fucking what?

Ban all things used to kill people with!

You cannot be that naive!

I'm far from naive my smart-ass friend. That's not what I said.. and there is a big difference between scissors and an assault rifle although I could kill you with scissors. lets not be stupid here.

 

[Mindmelted]

I'm far from naive my smart-ass friend. That's not what I said.. and there is a big difference between scissors and an assault rifle although I could kill you with scissors. lets not be stupid here.

You are being very stupid then!!!!!!

 

[BRabiej]

Why not!!!

Do you think police are the only ones who need to shoot back at criminals?

I'm all for defending myself vs "criminals" but it does not take an assault rifle to shoot someone breaking into your house. Assault rifles have no purpose in the hands of the general population it just makes it easier for lunatics to obtain them.

 

[Mindmelted]

I'm all for defending myself vs "criminals" but it does not take an assault rifle to shoot someone breaking into your house. Assault rifles have no purpose in the hands of the general population it just makes it easier for lunatics to obtain them.

Oh really!!!!

 

[BRabiej]

Armor piercing/hollowpoint rounds are not special ammo unless in calibers beyond .50. You are perpetuating the language of gun-hater propagandists. This makes me wonder if you are interested in true debate, or simply want to opinion-bomb this forum.

I am not suggesting we need to out-arm the police because yadaa yadaa. That is a very uncharitable and pejorative rewrite, and it missed my basic point.

Never give police powers beyond those afforded the citizen. You somehow chose this to mean "arm the bejayzus out of civilians!" I am suggesting the opposite. If you don't want citizens owning AR-4 carbines, .50-caliber rifles and a variety of other weapons generally but not exclusively under the SWAT rubric ... police have no special title to them either.
I prefer not arming the police to getting into an arms race with them. The single most salutary thing we can do is pass laws limiting police access to special hardware.
Police and military are families, loved ones etc. of civilians everywhere. this does not stay their hand from awfulness. Consider Africa, Kosovo and Serbia, venues throughout Asia. The only thing keeping us from being them is luck.
Should the luck fail, Nobody who has considered the matter will be wise to trust someone in uniform. Their oath isn't to the people but to their superiors. My opinion. cn

Police already have powers beyond the normal citizen and you know It does not bother me any..

• Consider Africa, Kosovo and Serbia, venues throughout Asia. The only thing keeping us from being them is luck.​
  
  
  
  

I don't agree this country has its issues but were far from those places.. I really don't have much to complain about in America.. US Life in all honesty is great compared to those places.. I cant believe you could even compare them.

It's not like I'm suggesting we disarm america and have bar codes tattooed on our necks.

Is it that bad of a thing to not allow assault rifles to general public? Would that make you feel like you have been stripped of your freedom or something?

 

[Mindmelted]

Police already have powers beyond the normal citizen and you know It does not bother me any..

• Consider Africa, Kosovo and Serbia, venues throughout Asia. The only thing keeping us from being them is luck.​
  
  

I don't agree this country has its issues but were far from those places.. I really don't have much to complain about in America.. US Life in all honesty is great compared to those places.. I cant believe you could even compare them.

It's not like I'm suggesting we disarm america and have bar codes tattooed on our necks.

Is it that bad of a thing to not allow assault rifles to general public? Would that make you feel like you have been stripped of your freedom or something?

Huh! Yes it would.

 

[BRabiej]

You are obviously not understanding what myself and CN are trying to tell you. A hollow point round and other rounds like a soft point are designed to enter said target and stop without exiting the intended target. But to answer your question, no it's not completely out of the question. But I only find it possible if shooting through a hand or if you completely miss.

Take this for example: The other day while making sure my rifle was sighted in, I placed a sticky target on an old wooden door that is only about 1.5" thick. I had used one of my soft points during the sighting process and it didn't go all the way through the door while the fmj did.

I fully understand what you guys are saying about hollow points this we established. Its also very off subject.

The general population does not need assault rifles this is what I was really going at all along but people keep avoiding the real question and picking apart my posts. so tell me this people list some real reasons we need to keep Assault rifles accessible to general population?

 

[BRabiej]

Huh! Yes it would.

Oh I see.

So what do you do with your assault rifle? if you even have one.. I mean what daily or monthly/yearly use does it have at your place of residence?? I mean besides maybe taking it out into the boonies and shooting up some old TV's.. and how would not legally being able to posses that specific item make you free stripped of your freedom and how will that affect your life??

 

[BRabiej]

Oh really!!!!

Yeah really!!!

You must be stoned and forgot the rest of your post. its OK I'm right there with you.