LED options and your thoughts

[dvdr]

Hey all,

New to site and newer to growing (havent started yet), but i love the idea of using LEDs. The science behind it is impressive, though i dare say, incomplete. I have done lots of reading on the subject, but i if i had to cite one site where i learned the most it would be here. Pretty large knowledge base presented in an easy to understand format - plus i like his writing style.

Anyway, the point of this thread is for me to list about 5 different LED light options and to hear back from you. what i dont want is to debate whether LEDs are better than HPS or MH lights, I hope we can limit our comments to discussing the lights posted in this thread (feel free to post your own lights).

The lights i have been looking at are:

100w 1 panel 64x3wLED 5120lm
200w 2 panel 96x3wLED 9600lm
400w 4 panel 192x3wLED 20000lm
Calafornia Lightworks's 800w SolarStorm
SunShine System's 600w GrowPanel Pro
StealthGrower's 1000w SG 1250 HOGeneric Light 1
Generic Light 2

My thoughts:
The first three lights are almost the same, just with different panel counts - so more or less LEDs per unit. I like them, they look good imo. I am unsure how many plants could grow under these types of lights tho. Could the 100w 1 panel unit handle more than one plant, or would you need two panels per plant? i have no clue...
The next three are offered by "western" companies and as such look much more reputable. Are they any better than the first three, made in China, options? perhaps... Their LED panels look different, but i think it is because they put a glass screen over their LEDs so you cannot clearly see the individual diodes. This seems like a bad idea to me as any barrier between my light and plant is a bad thing. Also given the low penetration value of LEDs (remember each diode is only 1w, 2w, 3w and (rarely) 5w), any barrier is a really bad thing.
The last two units are what scare me about LED lights in general - it is easy for anyone to sell a unit that they SAY is awesome (look at the specs on the last two and they SEEM awesome), but after you buy it and use it you realize it is complete shit. I'm not some sort of light specialist who has the tools necessary to test the equipment i buy. If i buy something that says it has the 420nm light spectrum as well as the 580nm spectrum at a 7:2 ratio (or whatever) i assume it's good enough. However, just the cheap appearance and cheap price tag makes me wonder. However to it's credit it says it is using an EPISTAR LED light, which is the same mentioned in the first three. So.. given it's using a 5w light with more actual diodes it is superior to the first three?

Clearly, i am confused. Would someone, much smarter than I, take a quick look over the links and let me know:
1). which light do you think is best, why?
2). How many plants could (whichever light you chose) adequately support?

Cheers!

 

[Taviddude]

Stay away from China. I know, most the LED's come from China anyways and are assembled here, but their lights generally suck and don't put out shit.

I've seen the SolarStorm in action, and it definitely puts out. I personally think a 600 watt HPS would keep up, or bury it though.

The Chrome FSF lights are putting out some MAJOR PAR, but the spread isn't good enough. They'll bleach the fuck out of a plant with EASE, but they need to find a way to spread out that power a little bit better. Not to mention they are ridiculously priced.

Believe me, I'm all about LED, but it's still got a long way to come, and the price needs to come WAY DOWN. The things aren't made of gold.
It's like waiting for PS3 to come out before buying PS2. I'll wait until they are trying to get rid of last years models next year and if they're as good as they say they are I won't have missed a thing. They should work just as good 2 years from now as they do today, and cost me a shitload less.

 

[dvdr]

thanks for the reply, i appreciate it. Your comments kinda confirm my hunch about LEDs. I WANT to use them, but may have to wait a little.

 

[THE KONASSURE]

I`ve found there really good as long as your have some full spec light to back them up

but even the new white leds are pretty good

People on here seam to get good results with Apollo and Han`s

On a budget blackstar do ok

Personally I got Van Q led in china to make me up something to spec there kind of the same as the 400w lights being sold as "budzilla" lights for $1200 but mine were a lot less then that

There vegging fine but have to see what happens in flower

One of my lights with 100w of full spectrum should be able to keep up with a 600w hps now were talking 300 to 400w of led and induction to match a 600w hps so not a huge power saving but the lights will last way longer then any hps bulb and give off way less heat.

 

[jcmjrt]

What's best for me isn't necessarily best for you. The shape of the grow space and your style of growing (big, tall or short scrog or..).

General rule of thumb for LED lighting is that it will only put out much light a few inches around the fixture. So it's typically better to use multiple small LED fixtures so that plants get well covered as opposed to the HID way of thinking with one large point source of light. Take any square footage claims with a LARGE grain of salt...remember rule of thumb..

The best LEDs (and quality varies HUGELY so brand and bin are important) tend to be Cree and Philipps. If you want top quality at a somewhat reasonable price, then you should consider diy. You can make the shape, wattage, spectrum,etc that you desire.

 

[Beefbisquit]

100w actual draw, will do about 2-3sq/ft in flower.

You haven't said how big your grow area is, that will be the main factor in determining panel size/power.

 

[THE KONASSURE]

Plus 100w chips will give you well over 2000par at 2M from the light so you could grow a 3m plant under them if you really had to

I hate people`s love of smaller led chips and SOG I mean it`s very efficent but 6 x 100w led chips being run at around 75w each will kick the crap out of any 600w hps I don`t care even 6 white 100w leds being driven at 75w with 90" lens will kick the crap out of any 600w hps and you can treat them just like a hps in fact they will have more penetration.



Small chips for sog and keeping the lights right on top of the plants with 50w+ chips you can start a seedling 1M away from the light hell I`d say 2 to 3m if you set everything up right.

but yes 1W leds are only good for 6 to 12 inches and 3w leds around 20 inches max from the light hence loads of short plants do best

but when you go over 20w chips size the game changes efficiency is not as high but penetration is way way better and still cooler and more efficient then a hps I got sick of having loads of small plants it was more work for no more benefit so I stuck my 2w 300w led panels in a mates grow and got myself some lights with big chips I get well over 2000par at 1 meter from the light and still get over 1000par at 2m and mine arent even 300w draw

Also my flowering area is around 1.2 to 1.3m high so my clones go in there around 1m from the lights and I can let them get up to 80cm high if I took out my veg/clone area below I could grow some 1.5m plants give or take depending on the size of the root zone.

Small chips are way more efficient and large chips penetrate way better and are still more efficient then a hps, do some of your own reaserch instead of telling people what someone else has told you.

Shout out the guy above me he knows a thing or 2 about leds but god he`ll never shut up about them Jack Sparrow films.............

also the says SG 1250 HO provides better coverage area, better canopy penetration, and significantly higher light output than any other light on the market.

Anyone else notice the 6 red 40`ish mm leds and the 2 blue ones ? what do they look like 40 to 50w chips ? must be what`s doing all that penetration they claim to be getting ?

 

[Beefbisquit]

[video=youtube_share;GI6CfKcMhjY]http://youtu.be/GI6CfKcMhjY[/video]

>.>

 

[Campo Cultivator]

when you talk about large chips are u talking integrated chips like vanq ?
any one else tried them ?
How do you get the large chips called to less than a 100?
tx


?

Plus 100w chips will give you well over 2000par at 2M from the light so you could grow a 3m plant under them if you really had to

I hate people`s love of smaller led chips and SOG I mean it`s very efficent but 6 x 100w led chips being run at around 75w each will kick the crap out of any 600w hps I don`t care even 6 white 100w leds being driven at 75w with 90" lens will kick the crap out of any 600w hps and you can treat them just like a hps in fact they will have more penetration.



Small chips for sog and keeping the lights right on top of the plants with 50w+ chips you can start a seedling 1M away from the light hell I`d say 2 to 3m if you set everything up right.

but yes 1W leds are only good for 6 to 12 inches and 3w leds around 20 inches max from the light hence loads of short plants do best

but when you go over 20w chips size the game changes efficiency is not as high but penetration is way way better and still cooler and more efficient then a hps I got sick of having loads of small plants it was more work for no more benefit so I stuck my 2w 300w led panels in a mates grow and got myself some lights with big chips I get well over 2000par at 1 meter from the light and still get over 1000par at 2m and mine arent even 300w draw

Also my flowering area is around 1.2 to 1.3m high so my clones go in there around 1m from the lights and I can let them get up to 80cm high if I took out my veg/clone area below I could grow some 1.5m plants give or take depending on the size of the root zone.

Small chips are way more efficient and large chips penetrate way better and are still more efficient then a hps, do some of your own reaserch instead of telling people what someone else has told you.

Shout out the guy above me he knows a thing or 2 about leds but god he`ll never shut up about them Jack Sparrow films.............

also the says SG 1250 HO provides better coverage area, better canopy penetration, and significantly higher light output than any other light on the market.

Anyone else notice the 6 red 40`ish mm leds and the 2 blue ones ? what do they look like 40 to 50w chips ? must be what`s going all that penetration they claim to be getting ?

 

[THE KONASSURE]

Yeah the chips like in the Vanq`s

You can buy them and drivers and lens`s and make your own

I think someone did a grow on here with just 1 40w white led chip they grew one pretty nice plant from what I saw

Please explain by what you mean when you ask how you get the chips called to less then 100 ?

Do you mean cooled ? they have a heat sink and fan they don`t get that hot cooler then my 200w induction I can touch the lens but there is a lot of light I would try to keep any plants a min of 10cm from the lens`s probably a bit more space would be cool if my plants get too high during flowering I might get some bleaching, I need to work something out because I have a 3.5m maybe a 4m ceiling so I`m wasting a lot of height as my tent is only 1.7 or 1.8m high.

 

[Swiftowl11]

To op, I personally would go with china lights, there are many good suppliers out there in china. I wouldn't write them off completely. Just have to find the right one. The led lights that are here in the states, makes my wallet to lite for me. When their price comes down then I will switch my rooms over maybe. But china's led lights are progressing every year, they are getting better. Seems like they do put money into their R & D. The china companys I used so far were great, some lights superior to others. But, my current supplier can build me 8 custom led with my own selection of lens and spectrum. Which I use 1:3:1:1::4:8:, (Orange : 6000k : Blue : Purple : Red630 : Red660), if anyone cares. Have them built in 2 days and on chinas air delivery plane that same day. Its at my door step in California, in 5 days. They do not stop working out there on sundays, you see your tracking moving right along in china. It slows down when it gets to LAX airport though. Thats a 150w true power draw light for 131 shipped, my price.

So just try a china light, if all else its the best veg light you'll use.

All the info the Konassure said is golden. I had china lights I could run at 4 inches off the tops, and other lights that had to be more then 10 inches or burning started. So each light is different. The 4 inch was the no extra lenses led, 9 inches has primary and secondary lenses. I grow hydro sog so perfect for me, closer I can get the better.

 

[dvdr]

The Konnasure

Personally I got Van Q led in china to make me up something to spec there kind of the same as the 400w lights being sold as "budzilla" lights for $1200 but mine were a lot less then that

There vegging fine but have to see what happens in flower

Thanks. I agree that the LEDs, given the proper spectrum SHOULD (out)perform an HPS bulb, but there seems to be a lot of disagreement about what exactly the right spectrum is. I would prefer more coverage than less. i have read how new research suggests that the UV and IR spectrum, while not used for photosynthesis are actually crucial for healthy plant development. On wikipedia, under 'cannabis cultivation' (?) it says pot plants need 420-470 and 580-630 (i think i remembered that correctly... the 420 part was amusingly appropriate i thought). Anyway, i have see many lights that just have 1 blue spectrum, 1 red spectrum and 1 orange along with a white. Not bad, but i would want to double up a few of those and increase the spectrum ranges offered by the lights. Still, it's good to know that you are using them successfully - i actually think there is a grow journal going on right now where someone is using PURE LED to grow his plant. I am very very curious to see how it turns out.

JCMJRT

General rule of thumb for LED lighting is that it will only put out much light a few inches around the fixture. So it's typically better to use multiple small LED fixtures so that plants get well covered as opposed to the HID way of thinking with one large point source of light. Take any square footage claims with a LARGE grain of salt...remember rule of thumb..

i hear what you are saying - LED's lack the penetration value of the HID style lights. BUT, i have a question regarding this as I hvae heard conflicting information. consumers, like us, generally want to put the LED RIGHT UP on the plant as we doubt the intensity of the light being made... but i have seen manufacturers state the LED lights need to be placed 20-30cm (cant exactly recall what was said) away from the plants to... well, for whatever reason, but the gist of what they said was keep distance between the plant and the light. This seems very counter intuitive to me, for as you said LEDs lack the penetration of HID lights so you want to put them as close as possible... any thoughts?

The best LEDs (and quality varies HUGELY so brand and bin are important) tend to be Cree and Philipps.

I have heard good things about Cree and also Bridgelux as they are both well designed LEDs utilizing good heatsinking (heat removal is key for LEDs or they burn out quickly. I am considering using EPISTAR LEDs, from China. I know people are often skeptical of China, but i have been there enough times to (somewhat) differentiate between the cheap knock offs and credible companies. EPISTAR looks okay, though there is really no guarantee that the LEDs i want are actually EPISTAR.. without being too pejorative, Chinese people are awesome at SAYING something is made from a certain brand, when in fact it isnt.

Beefbisquit

You haven't said how big your grow area is, that will be the main factor in determining panel size/power.

too true, and it is because i actually dont know at the moment. I am contemplating renting an apartment in which case i would use a small room, maybe 3x3m or use a closet in my existing apartment, which would then be 1x.4m (an estimate as i am actually not at home this month). Given the closet setup i really really wanna use LEDs to avoid the obvious heat issues, whereas with the 3x3m room i would have no issues using a HPS / MH setup.

The Konnasure

do some of your own reaserch instead of telling people what someone else has told you.

Man.. c'mon, this IS part of my research asking questions and reviewing answers. AND, no one has told me anything, besides u gents, everything i said in the original post was based on what i have read from other websites. I dont know why you are getting upset, i just want to have a simple discussion about LEDs and their apparent advantages and disadvantages. sorry it irked you so...

I hate people`s love of smaller led chips and SOG I mean it`s very efficent but 6 x 100w led chips being run at around 75w each will kick the crap out of any 600w hps I don`t care even 6 white 100w leds being driven at 75w with 90" lens will kick the crap out of any 600w hps and you can treat them just like a hps in fact they will have more penetration.


Small chips for sog and keeping the lights right on top of the plants with 50w+ chips you can start a seedling 1M away from the light hell I`d say 2 to 3m if you set everything up right.

but yes 1W leds are only good for 6 to 12 inches and 3w leds around 20 inches max from the light hence loads of short plants do best

but when you go over 20w chips size the game changes efficiency is not as high but penetration is way way better and still cooler and more efficient then a hps I got sick of having loads of small plants it was more work for no more benefit so I stuck my 2w 300w led panels in a mates grow and got myself some lights with big chips I get well over 2000par at 1 meter from the light and still get over 1000par at 2m and mine arent even 300w draw

I'm sorry, but slightly confused. i havent seen any LEDs that use 20w chips for their LEDs. I am only familiar with LEDs using a 1w, 3w and 3w3chip and one setup using a 5w chip. Can you link any lights that use a 10w or 20w chip for their LEDs, i would really like to check it out. Again, much of my knowledge has come from here. I thought he gave a fairly good overview of the various LED chips, but if you can provide a different source i would appreciate reading up on higher than 5w chip sets. Again, same website, but from this interview with the owner of California LightWorks on their new SolarStorm LED i thought it was implied that very few companies use a 5w or stronger light, the industry favorite being a 3w 1 chip.


Beefbisquit - i wasnt so into the song until bolton started ripping it up on the beach. that was a turning point for me. scarface bit was enjoyable too.

Lastly, The Konnasure, you may hvae already answered my question about 10+ LED chips. im trying to search for the Vanq u meantioned, but my internet is not working. not even sure if this post will upload

 

[dvdr]

Swiftowl11
thanks man, i agree about the Chinese LEDs. its smart to approach chinese products with a little skepticism, but there is a lot of quality to be found... just takes time to sift through the knockoffs from the legit companies.

 

[Chronikool]

I have a grow with 50w SMD's if you are interested? Check my signature

 

[Chronikool]

Thanks. I agree that the LEDs, given the proper spectrum SHOULD (out)perform an HPS bulb, but there seems to be a lot of disagreement about what exactly the right spectrum is. I would prefer more coverage than less. i have read how new research suggests that the UV and IR spectrum, while not used for photosynthesis are actually crucial for healthy plant development. On wikipedia, under 'cannabis cultivation' (?) it says pot plants need 420-470 and 580-630 (i think i remembered that correctly... the 420 part was amusingly appropriate i thought). Anyway, i have see many lights that just have 1 blue spectrum, 1 red spectrum and 1 orange along with a white. Not bad, but i would want to double up a few of those and increase the spectrum ranges offered by the lights. Still, it's good to know that you are using them successfully - i actually think there is a grow journal going on right now where someone is using PURE LED to grow his plant. I am very very curious to see how it turns out.

What do you mean by PURE LED?

 

[THE KONASSURE]

There you go buddy vanq`s website rite here http://www.vanqled.com/ledgrowlight/index_xx.asp?id=640

There`s many lights out there using bigger chips but most of them use smaller 1w or 3w chips too then have a few 5`s or 10`s or 20`s in the middle I saw one that used 6 50w leds that looked pretty nice but it was more then the vanq`s

That SG1250 looks to be using either 3 or 5w chips with 8 bigger chips can`t you see the 6 big red squares and the 2 big blue ones ? They look like 50w leds to me.

Also yes a bit of IR is good for during flowering but too much IR will stretch your plants, UV is good for getting nice crystal development but too much of that can harm your plants too plus you want uvb as uva does way more harm then good.

The best way to fill these gaps are A spend extra on a fancy led chip that had uv and ir or B use a full spectrum light to veg under then add your leds for flowering or C use some white leds in the grow light and some uvb leds or uvb bulbs.

There`s many many bands of light you could start adding but either use full spectrum or keep it simple, like I said I`ve seen a grow done using all red leds no deep red either just around 50w of cheap 1w red leds all 630nm remember bands are not dead exact a 630nm will put out some 620 and 640nm they are not super narrow band.

Anyway the plant ran under just red looked a little thin but it grew weed and looked better then some grows I`ve seen

Then the most simple set up I see people building is just red and blue at a ratio of 5:1 and it works in fact for all the effort anything else takes that set up is the most effective and efficient. I saw a chap that was broke all the time and used to make his own lights he`d build the drivers from scratch and build the lights with no fan in a metal baking dish.

His simple 40 to 60w led lights grew some of the best looking led weed I`d seen at the time as he never had much money when he wanted to improve it he simply added an 11w cfl to his grow to fill in any light spectrum the plant`s may have been craving.

but don`t be fooled simple red and blue at the right ratio will grow very very nice weed, but hey I`m never one to say don`t try to do better Vanq can do a light with a chips that are made for growing "super weed" but I wanted to avoid them because I knew I would be running an induction lamp in my grow too so all I wanted from my leds was red and blue

See now I can also use mine as booster lights I can take one out of my grow and go to a friends hps grow set up my 300w led next a 600w hps during flowering and give the plants a super kick up the ass.

Adding a boost of 630nm for a few days can really make plants flower hard like them extra sunny days you get right in the middle of summer can.

When I said do your own research it was just advice man I see so many people on here just believing anything an led light manufacture says or on the other had just plain hating on anything that is not a hps

Plants will try to use what ever light you give them but as long as there`s enough 630nm most strains will do very well it`s just best to try to not have too much 630nm when your vegging as you`ll want more of that when you flower to get a boost also too much red during veg and you`ll get cal/mag issues.

 

[jcmjrt]

JCMJRT


i hear what you are saying - LED's lack the penetration value of the HID style lights. BUT, i have a question regarding this as I hvae heard conflicting information. consumers, like us, generally want to put the LED RIGHT UP on the plant as we doubt the intensity of the light being made... but i have seen manufacturers state the LED lights need to be placed 20-30cm (cant exactly recall what was said) away from the plants to... well, for whatever reason, but the gist of what they said was keep distance between the plant and the light. This seems very counter intuitive to me, for as you said LEDs lack the penetration of HID lights so you want to put them as close as possible... any thoughts?



I have heard good things about Cree and also Bridgelux as they are both well designed LEDs utilizing good heatsinking (heat removal is key for LEDs or they burn out quickly. I am considering using EPISTAR LEDs, from China. I know people are often skeptical of China, but i have been there enough times to (somewhat) differentiate between the cheap knock offs and credible companies. EPISTAR looks okay, though there is really no guarantee that the LEDs i want are actually EPISTAR.. without being too pejorative, Chinese people are awesome at SAYING something is made from a certain brand, when in fact it isnt.

Actually, I'm not talking penetration but coverage. The light may be fine for feet underneath the fixture for several feet (depending on wattage, optics, etc) but is almost never good very far off the edges of the fixture....around the sides. LED is more like T5 if you have experience with that. The plants only grow right under the fixture and very little grows off to the side/larfy bud development to the sides.

Penetration is an issue which you need to decide up fronttoo - are you growing large plants or SOG or? Large plants need more penetration (or side lighting) and small level canopy could do great with low wattage and close.

As far as LEDs go, I can't tell you that I have experience with Epistar. I don't. What I have seen written by a couple of folks who are trying to make a good commercial product is that they wouldn't use Epistar. I do seem to remember a name being mentioned for cheap chinese LEDs which were OK (not Cree or Luxeon) but OK...but I can't remember it at the moment...seems like it started with an H. I'm sure there are several but I'd also guess that you'd need to do some real checking first. A few extra dollars can get you a known brand and bin so you really know what you are working with. If they wouldn't supply good tech info with the LEDs, I wouldn't buy them.

Also, you are quite correct about heat but not only for longevity. Heat also affects the spectrum and amount of light output. High temps will rob you of their efficacy.

 

[THE KONASSURE]

You know the best light makers can`t guarantee what brand chips your light will have.

As there`s many factors and on their top lights they simply fit whatever chips are giving them the best output

Now if they had a budget range and was using epistar for that range but a batch of say red epistar led chips where giving more output then anything else they had got in then they would use them.

It`s unlikely that they would be better but the only true way to claim you make "the best" is to constantly evolve your product and use the best materials sadly no ones led chips are 100% consistent epistar make good chips for what they cost but you do get quite a few lemons and people in china seam happy to fit some of the poorer batch`s if they get them.

Why would you need super bright light right up to the edge of your grow space ? you do want a gap between the wall and your plants you know it stops mould and what have you.

Leds are far more directional so if you want bright light right near the edges you will have to either angel your panel towards the edge meaning you`ll need at least 2 panels to do this or get a huge panel that covers the whole of the top of your tent or you could just use 100w leds and 120" lens`s instead of 90" then you`ll get more spread.

 

[Beefbisquit]

3x3 is a large area, you'd need like 9 large panels to cover the whole area in flower.

http://shop.area51lighting.com/index.php?id_product=11&controller=product

A lot of people on this site (myself included) have had great luck with Area 51, I highly recommend them.

 

[THE KONASSURE]

9 panels ? Hmm

Starting to think if OP needs that much light I mean were talking 6 to 7k worth of $`s right ?

Maybe he could find someone to come and do a custom system ?

Maybe go with some 1w or 3w colour leds across the whole top of the grow and add some 40w or 50 or even 100w white chips also add a few red chips that you can turn on during flowering and maybe some uv ?

There`s gotta be someone that would do a custom rig for that kinda cash ?

Hmm some of the area 51`s with some larger led chips for later in flowering could be really cool, I think if you have that kind of budget you`ll want see if you can find someone who`ll do a custom system for you ?