Important Psilocybin Cubensis Nutrients.

[SnakeByte]

I wanted to begin a discussion on the specific nutrients utilized by growing fruit bodies. Not procedures, special mixtures, or new substrates.
Though, using well known and already established substrates as a basis for discussion may be a good place to start.

So let's begin by discussing the nutrients found in Brown Rice Flour.
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/cereal-grains-and-pasta/5753/2

The data on this nutritional site shows incomplete proteins (though only missing one type: Hydroxyproline "Trace elements")

Low Amounts (anything under 2 milligrams)

Vitamins and Minerals:
-Vitamin C (Trace elements)-Vitamin E
-Vitamin B6
-Vitamin B12 (Trace elements)
-Alcohol (Trace elements)
-Cholesterol (Trace elements)
-Copper
-Folate (Trace elements)
-Folic Acid
-Retinol (trace elements)
-Riboflavin
-Thiamin

Low in Sugars: (Trace elements)
-Sucrose
-Glucose
-Fructose
-Lactose
-Maltose
-Galactose

--------------------------------------------------
High amount of carbohydrates and proteins.

High Amounts (anything above 2 milligrams)

Vitamins and Minerals:
-Calcium
-Dietary Fiber
-Iron
-Magnesium
-Manganese
-Niacin
-Phosphorus
-Potassium
-Sodium
-Zinc

Fats:
-Monounsaturated Fat
-Polyunsaturated Fat
-Saturated Fat
-Omega-3 fatty acids
-Omega-6 fatty acids

Proteins:
-Tryptophan
-Threonine
-Isoleucine
-Leucine
-Lysine
-Methionine
-Cystine
-Phenylalanine
-Tyrosine
-Valine
-Arginine
-Histidine
-Alanine
-Aspartic acid
-Glutamic acid
-Glycine
-Proline
-Serine
---------------------------------------

It would SEEM that: proteins, fats, and carbohydrates are the most important.
But just how important are each of these as well as the other high, low, trace element, and other nutrients perhaps not even mentioned above?

 

[SnakeByte]

Aside from important Nutrients, there are also important gases to consider such as: Oxygen, Carbon Dioxide, and Nitrogen.
But also let's not forget the importance of pH in psilocybin production in Ps.C.

I found THIS THREAD titled "A Mycelium Study?" in another forum named "The Shroomery", which was actually quite useful in pointing out some of the MORE important nutrients. However still no specifics on how each affects what.

There was also a report which I found useful for the correlation of pH to psilocybin production - Titled: The Production of Psilocybin in Submerged Culture by Psilocybin Cubensis (Drug Plant Laboratory, College of Pharmacy, University of Washington)

 

[canndo]

What are you attempting to discover here? Recall that the organism is not a plant and it is a decomposer by nature.

 

[SnakeByte]

Trying to discover the role of each of the nutrients in the growth cycle of Ps.C.
I'm trying to find out the important nutrients that mushrooms need to be healthy.
In other words, what does Ps.C absolutely need to survive and why - Not only that but, what affect do the rest of these nutrients have on the overall growth in the same respect.

What are you trying to say about it not being a plant? That it doesn't use nutrients from the substrate in which it's cultivated? If the substrate is carb-less for instance, then will growth slow down?
If so, then carbs must be important. But what exactly are they doing? What do they consume and excrete on a chemical level?

The nutrients in the substrate and form of substrate will play a vital role in the growth of mycelium and fruit bodies.

Basically trying to figure out what mycology is all about as it's interests me and thought it would also interest others who want to know more.

 

[SnakeByte]

I'm trying to find out by doing research of my own by not having very much luck.

I did find out that the organism uses an enzyme to extract phosphorous in order to turn psilocybin into psilocin as a start...
In fact it would seem the way a mushroom "digests" is through different kinds of enzymes.

If anyone has any relevant information, don't be shy to chime in as well as provide any useful links you may have found. Thanks!

 

[canndo]

Plants take simple elements from the soil (I use the word elements advisidly) and create carbs or sugars through photosynthesis Mushrooms do not do this. They take relatively complex organic matter and break it down into less complex states - this is where they derive their energy, in effect, they ride the entropy train down from the mountain that plants created. You want to know optimum nutrient for the mycelium, when you know this you will know what you need to know for the fruit as they are simply a highly organized form of mycelium. If you want to do this sort of thing, go to the root and study compost. (and good luck - it is a very complex environment)

 

[SnakeByte]

That's absolutely great stuff for beginners as most may not make that separation between plants and fungus. Keep it coming.

As Canndo stated: Mushrooms (unlike plants) can themselves break down relatively complex organic material. They actually do this through the use of enzymes created in the hyphae cell, to be used outside the cell (exoenzymes). These powerful enzymes are able to break down almost anything from shredded newspaper, to cloth, to veggies, to meat, to poop, to wood, and even aluminum pans. What these enzymes are actually called and how they are formed, I haven't yet uncovered but hopefully with the help of the knowledgeable people in this forum and this thread, we can share this (and more) information with everyone.

Another important difference between plants and mushrooms is that the mushrooms absorb O2 (Oxygen) and give off CO2 (Carbon Dioxide)

Though I did find more confirmation on the extraction of phosphorus from psilocybin to create psilocin, not much was found on any other processes that occur before.

Link

I know from my chemistry knowledge and human metabolism studies that psilocybin is the phosphorous containing analouge of psilocin, a (phosphorous free molecule), and that digestive enzymes in the stomache break down the phosphorous radical of psilocybin rendering it psilocin which is then the main active constituent in the end. Typically there is much more psilocybin than psilocin in the cubensis, but all psilocybin coverts to psilocin anyway. What I've heard is that the active non- phosphorous psilocin undergoes a molecular breakdown during the drying process only leaving stable psilocybin to change to psilocin in the stomache. So I'm assuming they are more potent fresh because of the available psilocin that is till in them. Though I've yet to try myself-- but will soon!

However this thread isn't about me trying to find something new (not already discovered) nor how to optimize growth - but to pin-point exactly what role each nutrient plays in the growth and development of this specific species of mushroom.

These mushrooms (unlike other poisonous mushrooms not of the same species and non-poisonous ones) create the well known chemical "Psilocybin" but how exactly does this take place? Since we're on the subject, phosphorus seems to have an important role in the creation of Psilocybin.
What is that flow/path?
Essentially, what happens when the phosphorus in the BRF is broken down, digested, and absorbed into the mushroom?
When that happens, what comes afterward to create the Psilocybin?

If we take a different nutrient as an example, like Calcium:
What role does calcium play in the growth and function of mycelium, hyphea, fruit bodies, and reproduction of Ps.C?
Again what is the flow or path from when it is broken down to when it is utilized?

I find that I'm often running into these questions when discussing with peers though very seldom does anyone have a verifiable answer if any idea at all.

 

[SnakeByte]

More information on these mushrooms is that they are saprophytes or "[SIZE=-1]Saprobic" which is just a fancy word meaning it survives off Dead organic matter as already mentioned above.

A good source I have found through all my digging has bee[SIZE=-1]n:[/SIZE] Mu[SIZE=-1]s[/SIZE]hr[SIZE=-1]oom Exert.[SIZE=-1]C[/SIZE]om[/SIZE]
[/SIZE]

 

[canndo]

All these are good and valid questions. There have been a number of experiments using radioactive elements to track the abosbtion and metabolic action of the mycelium. I never paid a lot of attention to this because it becomes far too technical for far too little reward - for me.

I always admire anyone with questions however and I will answer to my limited capacity as someone who has worked on the blunt end of growing fungi for 40 some odd years.


What was found in the readiocative isotope observations is that material moves in EITHER DIRECTION! Plants, for the most part move nutrients and liquids from the origin or root upward. This is not bidirectional but mycelium actually sends things both ways. Now what does that mean? it means intercelular communication. Information is traveling in every direction on a mycelular matrix - very much like information moves in a brain.

 

[SnakeByte]

Oh wow, so mycelium actually undergoes inter-cellular communication. Which means that unlike plants simply reacting to the external environment, Mushrooms will regulate certain genetic functions in order to create more enzymes, proteins, and other chemicals as is needed. This is very interesting!
Here is an article explaining some of this: "GENERAL CHEMISTRY OF MEDICINAL MUSHROOMS".

Nutrition of Saprobic Fungi - Encyclopædia Britannica also discusses mycelium digestion through enzymes.
This last article also goes on to explain a bit of what I have been wondering all this time. It states that the sugars and starches are used as a Carbon (C) source a the proteins and amino acids are used for a source of Nitrogen (N) by most fungi, after being broken down extracellularly.
It does mention in passing that there are many other elements like zinc, iron, and calcium needed for healthy fruit bodies too, however once again, they don't go too into depth.
Still nothing on the responsibilities of each element in the growth process though... Honestly, there is a plethora of information about what effect elements will have on plants and what their role is in that overall growth but there is still sooo little of the same info available for saprobic fungi.
Let alone poisonous saprobic Fungi... :S

 

[testtime]

Oh wow, so mycelium actually undergoes inter-cellular communication. Which means that unlike plants simply reacting to the external environment, Mushrooms will regulate certain genetic functions in order to create more enzymes, proteins, and other chemicals as is needed. This is very interesting!
Here is an article explaining some of this: "GENERAL CHEMISTRY OF MEDICINAL MUSHROOMS"

Good questions, good answers, but watch it on plant assumptions based on that snippet.

Plants have bidirectional traffic, with the inner channels going up and the outer going down (usually). That is how buds on the top tell buds on the sides to stop growing and leaves a triangle shape. When roots grow they are taking in and storing sugar that is generates by the leaves during photosynthesis. When you see leaves get mottled and die, the plant is using those leaves as toxic waste storage in anticipation to dumping them.

 

[canndo]

Good questions, good answers, but watch it on plant assumptions based on that snippet.

Plants have bidirectional traffic, with the inner channels going up and the outer going down (usually). That is how buds on the top tell buds on the sides to stop growing and leaves a triangle shape. When roots grow they are taking in and storing sugar that is generates by the leaves during photosynthesis. When you see leaves get mottled and die, the plant is using those leaves as toxic waste storage in anticipation to dumping them.

The presence of auxins if I recall, the most Polar auxin transport involving regulation of that "christmas tree effect" enabling the lower branches to grow more than the upper ones in proportion. Or was that cytokinin? I can't pull that one out of my head just now although I should be able to. I know there is some transport as you say Testtime but I don't believe it is on the level of mycelial mass. stamets is always making a big deal over the fact that cross connections in even small mycelial masses rivals those neural connections in the brain. That lone would mean nothing according to him but the fact that there is bidirectional communication has him believe that there very well could be some form of "intelligence".

He argues that the organism must be highly evolved simply because it has hit upon a mechanism whereby it uses man to extend it's reach into basements all over the globe. Along the lines of "man is water's way of getting from place to place".


Of course he never mentions that Orchids,by every measure a far more stupid being than p. Cubensis has managed to insinuate it's idiotic self into every walmart and even office depot in the country.

 

[SnakeByte]

I have found a page both very useful and interesting. It's a Mushroom Glossary. Something that has a definition for most often used words when cultivating mushrooms.

Shroom Glossary

 

[SnakeByte]

Well I'm now learning that most fungi create chitin. This long-chain polymer is the main component is cell walls of mushrooms. It is also actually what the exoskeleton of crustaceans and many insects is comprised of.
In fact I believe I read somewhere that there was a car company thinking of making it's bumpers and such from this through use of mycelium as it is both tough and biodegradable.

This is actually what the nitrogen and sugars are used for.
After being absorbing the N and sugars, mushrooms will created this to give their cell walls stability but also for pesticide of sorts.

Link

"Chitin appears to control pathogenic nematodes by stimulating the growth of certain naturally occurring
microorganisms in soil, which, in turn, release substances that kill the pathogenic nematodes and their eggs."

 

[SnakeByte]

I've also been reading a lot about mushrooms using carbon, mostly from the carbs but can't find much more than vague information at the moment.
I was reading about the differences between kingdoms mode of nutrition as well:

Evolution and phylogeny of fungi

"The crucial character difference between kingdoms is the mode of nutrition: animals (whether single-celled or multicellular) engulf food; plants photosynthesize; and fungi excrete digestive enzymes and absorb externally digested nutrients."

"Genomic surveys show that:
- Plant genomes lack gene sequences that are crucial in animal development
- Animal genomes lack gene sequences that are crucial in plant development
- BUT fungal genomes have NONE of the sequences that are important in controlling multicellular development in animals or plants. "

"Such fundamental genetic differences imply that animals, plants, and fungi are very different cellular organisms. Molecular analyses indicate that plants, animals, and fungi diverged from one another almost one billion years ago."

 

[SnakeByte]

Since enzymes are used in the mushrooms digestive process, I decided to look a bit more into that and discovered that MOST enzymes are protein and it's catalyst often times a form of metal ion but sometimes another enzyme or organic molecule.

Chemical nature of enzymes

"A large protein enzyme molecule is composed of one or more amino acid chains called polypeptide chains."

"If the enzyme is subjected to changes, such as fluctuations in temperature or pH, the protein structure may lose its integrity (denature) and its enzymatic ability."

"Bound to some enzymes is an additional chemical component called a cofactor, which is a direct participant in the catalytic event and thus is required for enzymatic activity. A cofactor may be either a coenzyme—an organic molecule, such as a vitamin—or an inorganic metal ion; some enzymes require both."

 

[SnakeByte]

The reason that there is so little information still not available to the public in large quantities about mushrooms and other fungus is that most studies have been and are only recently being carried out in the last 20 years.
You'd think that would be enough time however there have apparently been some "dramatic" changes of classification in the fungal kingdom.


Outline of classification of fungi

Distinguishing taxonomic features
Assembling the Fungal Tree of Life (AFTOL) project funded by the U.S. National Science Foundation. AFTOL is a work in progress, and uncertainties remain about the exact relationships of many groups. These uncertain groups are indicated in the annotated classification below by the term incertae sedis, meaning “of uncertain position,” the standard term for a taxonomic group of unknown or undefined relationship. The phylogenetic classification of fungi divides the kingdom into 7 phyla, 10 subphyla, 35 classes, 12 subclasses, and 129 orders.

 

[SnakeByte]

One thing I have found unanimously is that sodium and sodium compounds are bad for mycelial growth (as they pretty mush are for the growth of everything else that's alive.)

Thing is, all this information is general. Taken from many sources and even more of them have nothing to do with Ps.C.
Which I assume has different chemical reactions, the main one being the synthesis of our dear Psilocybin - But that's only the half of it as it's actually Psilocin that gets you high, which is what you get when you remove the phosphorous from the Psilocybin.

 

[SnakeByte]

Calcium Absorption and Growth Characteristics of Agrocybe cylindracea Mycelia in Submerged Culture
Here is a study of the effect of calcium on Agrocybe cylindracea growth (a mushroom that has fruit bodies). Though still no specifics on what the calcium is used for... the type of Ca used is Ca-lactate, as the rest of Ca forms are pretty much salts.

I also found this very useful thread: What are common contaminants of the mushroom culture?

 

[SnakeByte]

Alright, moving on as that's all I can seem to find on Calcium...

I did find this very interesting article and others like it that describes just HOW these "communications" in arbuscular mycorrhizal (in the sense of storage and digestion) Occur.
Apparently through signature 16:1Omega5 fatty acids called phospholipids and neutral lipids which it can detect to use as signals.

Signature fatty acids provide tools for determination of the distribution and interactions of mycorrhizal fungi in soil